Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[Kavik]

I 'heard' that some Delta members were to attend the NDTF National Conference (ie Stephen Lindsay Seminar) just gone but they were 'discouraged' to do so by their own organisation. I don't know the truth of this so my disclaimer is the fact that this is 3rd hand knowledge and that I cannot assert how much fact is in it (perhaps Delta could confirm/deny?), but if it is true then I think that's a real concern and sad, as IMO learning/education should not be limited and those people missed out on gaining really good additional insight to dog behaviour from a Master.

Apparently someone asked Delta to post details of the conference on the Delta "forum" (which is for instructors and students) and they apparently refused... though this information is 2nd hand to me - unclear as to the reason. However, there were several people in attendance on the second or third day wearing bright yellow Delta t-shirts.

I think that would be because Delta has nothing to do with NDTF and vice versa. I doubt it would have anything to do with Lindsay's methods or reputation. Whilst they both run courses within the NQF, they are still private providers, private businesses don't advertise for other private businesses, just not the way the world works.

Some posters are misinformed about what is actually taught i.e. methods and the referral to Veterinary Behaviourists but I am wholeheartedly sick of posting the same replies every time. There are certainly some trainers who go through the Cert IV and perhaps don't have the practical expertise to back themselves up, but that is not entirely Delta's fault. NDTF will find they have the same issues in coming years, now that their course is via distance. Delta has been running the course since 1996 and NDTF are very new to the correspondence scene. It's a constant source of worry for the course co-ordinators and as Black Bronson said, anyone can set up a business.

Dog handling is actually assessed in the Cert IV and people who show a total ineptitude for it are asked to defer their course whilst they gain more practical experience and decide whether it is really what they want to do.

There are plenty of fantastic Cert IV trainers out there and I find it quite offensive that the same people here love to 'jump on the bandwagon' every single time one of these threads come up. I spent 4 years at ADT training my own dog to advanced obedience and protection, I then spent another 6 years gaining experience in class taking and working 200+ B & T dogs and undertaking a course not unlike NDTF's (it's just not nationally recognised). Then I went to study the course provided by Delta as I felt that in the future people would be looking for trainers with a real piece of paper.

I train using positive motivational methods, it's a CHOICE I made.

I know how to fade food rewards, and my clients get plenty of information and encouragment about how to do it, if they choose not to follow the program then so be it.

If clients don't want to use food then that's fine, we'll find something else.

Sometimes I do refer to Veterinary Behavourists if I feel that the client will get faster results with one-on-one classes or that setup will work better for them and their dogs. It's all about the client frustration index. I can deal with aggression issues but geez...liability is a bitch these days! If you think you can work with problem dogs that's great, but don't think you won't ever be in court one day with a Veterinary Behaviourist on the stand testifying against you and your methods if it all goes pear shaped down the track. Best of luck.

Mel.

It is someone currently doing the course who told me about the referrals - she actually said they had to refer a certain number of people to pass the course. I wouldn't have known otherwise. I have no reason to think she is lying. She was excited about doing the the RSPCA and getting some practical experience teaching dogs to loose lead walk etc and was disappointed they were only allowed to watch them through the wire. I also train using positive motivational methods, also my choice I don't use the guide, show, place system that is taught at NDTF/ADT to teach obedience but I do know how to use it.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It is someone currently doing the course who told me about the referrals - she actually said they had to refer a certain number of people to pass the course.

For mine we had to do write ups of case studies of dogs that we identified may need further expertise. It would be interesting to clarify that point.

She was excited about doing the the RSPCA and getting some practical experience teaching dogs to loose lead walk etc and was disappointed they were only allowed to watch them through the wire.

AFAIK she would still need to be attending regular classes, doing write ups of those classes, assessing those classes (at different levels) and analysing her involvement in those classes. So RSPCA is one component but she should be submitting quarterly diaries of weekly classes she is involved with, no?

ETA there: I do remember speaking with someone directly involved with the course and apparently there was some major hiccup with the training of the shelter dogs due to ethical approval. This was 12 months ago so I'm sketchy on the details but I'm pretty sure that was the reason.

I don't use the guide, show, place system that is taught at NDTF/ADT to teach obedience but I do know how to use it.

Same here, I also know how to use positive punishment and negative reinforcement. I take exception to being tarnished (and this is not aimed at you Kavik ;) ) with the 'Delta' brush here on dol that means I know how to use food bribes and that's about it....

Edited April 11, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[Prydenjoy]

Same here, I also know how to use positive punishment and negative reinforcement. I take exception to being tarnished (and this is not aimed at you Kavik ;) ) with the 'Delta' brush here on dol that means I know how to use food bribes and that's about it....

I know other Delta trainers that would be in the same boat, whatever piece of paper you take home at the end of the day further reading and life experience can make a huge difference to your training ability also. It's one thing to bring home a piece of paper, but to stay committed to life long learning is another thing altogether. There's a lot of information out there, I guess some people just choose not to look any further than what they have learnt (or failed to learn) in the course they chose to take.

[kiesha09]

Thanks SnT for actually clarifying some of the points here. The delta course is actually a great course and much of the rubbishing it gets on here is very disappointing.

I was doing the course when they had the issues with the RSPCA shelter. The format of the course has been changed recently and it was the first year they had the prac week at the RSPCA. There was mention of some involvement of shelter dogs but it was NEVER said that we would be handling them. But yes it did come down to ethical approval and this was infact out of the hands of Delta.

As for having to refer a certain number of people to behaviouralists to pass the course - this is utter rubbish! You should clarify with your friend because in all my involvement with Delta that is so far from what I have experienced!!!

Finally, I think it is very disappointing that people who may have had a bad experience with a delta qualified instructor then tarnish all delta instructors as being terrible. Simply isn't the case. In any occupation you get people who are better or worse at their job. There are many delta instructors who are absolutely fantastic as there are other dog training professionals who are good/bad at what they do but we don't classify all as being good/bad.

[Cosmolo]

I think its unfortunate that, in any field, a whole group is tarnished by the actions of a few. However, i get the feeling that some of the issues with Delta are not through the instructors themselves, but rather a reflection on the course covering only certain techniques AND/OR dismissing others in a negative way. I would actually like to do the Delta course but one the thing that concerns me is that i don't believe i would be on their list of trainers afterwards if i chose to train with a combo of aversives/ positive methods.

I think S+T makes a great point re: the distance learning though- i think courses through DL are more difficult in terms of controlling what is produced by students at the end of the course- regardless of what course that may be. Previous experience is EVEN more important when doing a DL course IMO.

A great trainer is a great trainer regardless of what qualifications they have or have not completed

A bad trainer is a bad trainer regardless of what qualifications thay have or have not completed.

All trainers would do well to keep an open mind- learn about the things you may not agree with, you never know what a different perspective can provide to you. You don't know what you don't know. ;)

We also need to be careful with regards to labelling trainers based on information given by someone else- i am seriously amazed at how incorrectly something can be interpreted or represented to someone else. I have had occasion where a client has interpreted something as XYZ when i meant it as ABC and times where chinese whispers takes effect too! Don't believe everything someone tells you- its not that people always overtly lie, but interpretation can have a significant influence.

[Erny]

Thanks SnT for actually clarifying some of the points here. The delta course is actually a great course and much of the rubbishing it gets on here is very disappointing.

I don't think the course is being "rubbished" for the fact that people are pointing out what Delta doesn't do (ie what it doesn't prescribe to and what it doesn't permit). Fact is is what fact does.

Finally, I think it is very disappointing that people who may have had a bad experience with a delta qualified instructor then tarnish all delta instructors as being terrible. Simply isn't the case. In any occupation you get people who are better or worse at their job. There are many delta instructors who are absolutely fantastic as there are other dog training professionals who are good/bad at what they do but we don't classify all as being good/bad.

I agree with this. It is good to know what education/experience a professional person has had and what their views towards training are. In my case, I quite often get asked "what method of training do you use?" My answer to that is that "it depends on the dog, the person and the circumstances." I don't prescribe to nor am I against any "one" way.

I did the NDTF course (it was the 'base' course that started me off and my education has been on a continuous upward curve from that date). I wouldn't mind doing the Delta Course as well, but for the cost involved compounded by its teachings not being, from what I have heard from many, as open-minded/unbiased as I would prefer (I like to make my own mind up) there are other educational goals I think I'd prefer to seek first.

I'm not even sure if DELTA would accept me. I use all correctional and non-correctional training tools/restraints (*cough* except the one that is banned here in Victoria) depending on what works best for all concerned and I think (correct me if I'm wrong, please) DELTA don't permit its people to use check chains (nor PPCollars, if they had been legal here in Victoria .... only place in the world they are banned), nor e-collars. They permit head-collars, I think? And Martingales? And I'm pretty sure, correctional harnesses.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'm not even sure if DELTA would accept me. I use all correctional and non-correctional training tools/restraints (*cough* except the one that is banned here in Victoria) depending on what works best for all concerned and I think (correct me if I'm wrong, please) DELTA don't permit its people to use check chains (nor PPCollars, if they had been legal here in Victoria .... only place in the world they are banned). They permit head-collars, I think? And Martingales? And I'm pretty sure, correctional harnesses.

You'd have to take that up with the course Co-ords, quite frankly.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[angelsun]

It was asked by some Delta trainers when I arrived here in the country and began giving seminars in Rally Obedience, if I was a positive trainer.

Time went by and I was approached to give a seminar fairly local to me, and someone from the local club mentioned the seminar to the club stating she was going. A number of people stepped up and expressed interest in the seminar, however the main Delta instructor told these interested parties they were not to attend the seminar.

There went another aspect of dog sport for those interested people. This is not the first time that the main Delta instructor has dictated the actions of their underlings or students. Students were told to not attend the club 'fun' day held a month or so ago.

Regardless of the methods involved, it doesn't strike me as dog friendly to discourage people from experiencing new activities, but apparently unless it's CGC training, it doesn't matter.

[Erny]

You'd have to take that up with the course Co-ords, quite frankly.

It would be something I'd know if I applied - they'd need to take it up with me, if that caused them a problem. But it does remain a thought and something I'm not sure of but because of the experiences of others and what they've said, would expect as a possibility. ;)

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

Do you teach Rally using corrections Angelsun? I thought the whole point was so you could verbally or otherwise reward your dog in the ring.

Why would you need to use corrections in a Rally ring other than an NRM? ;)

Some Delta trainers here in a Melbourne club have been doing Rally for years.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Thanks SnT for actually clarifying some of the points here. The delta course is actually a great course and much of the rubbishing it gets on here is very disappointing.

I was doing the course when they had the issues with the RSPCA shelter. The format of the course has been changed recently and it was the first year they had the prac week at the RSPCA. There was mention of some involvement of shelter dogs but it was NEVER said that we would be handling them. But yes it did come down to ethical approval and this was infact out of the hands of Delta.

As for having to refer a certain number of people to behaviouralists to pass the course - this is utter rubbish! You should clarify with your friend because in all my involvement with Delta that is so far from what I have experienced!!!

Finally, I think it is very disappointing that people who may have had a bad experience with a delta qualified instructor then tarnish all delta instructors as being terrible. Simply isn't the case. In any occupation you get people who are better or worse at their job. There are many delta instructors who are absolutely fantastic as there are other dog training professionals who are good/bad at what they do but we don't classify all as being good/bad.

i beg to differ. Delta is a brand just like any other brand or franchise. if i go into a macdonalds and have bad food then it is reasonable that i think all maccas are bad because the franchisees have been trained the same.

the same for de;ta trainers...they have all gone through the same training so they should all have the same methods, otherwise what id the point in the training and the certificate?

you cant have it both ways, i had a bad experience with a delta trainer so i now think the training program produces trainers that i wouldnt use again...this applies to all delta trainers....if i had a good experience then i am sure you would have benefited from my positive experience....

[Staff'n'Toller]

the same for de;ta trainers...they have all gone through the same training so they should all have the same methods, otherwise what id the point in the training and the certificate?

Most of page 2 of this thread was to explain that whilst the certificate is the same, trainers experience before and after maketh the trainer, it's not all about the 15 months spent gaining the Cert IV.

Delta is NOT A FRANCHISE it is the course provider- just like Precise Training is the provider for the NDTF - just like Box Hill TAFE is the course provider for my Vet Nursing Certificates.

Not every Veterinary Nurse is a carbon copy of the next, I am not the same as a nurse who works in a referral centre, or an emergency centre, or a specialist eye practice such as Elfin on this board. My knowledge base and skills are different depending on my exposure in the workplace and further Ed.

If you knew your dog wasn't food motivated perhaps you should have spoken to the trainer about what reward system they did use before you turned up to class. I'm not taking the side of trainer b/c I have no idea who they are, but most businesses have web pages these days and the information is generally there in front of you.

Oh....and just for the record, I only use one particular macca's in my area b/c the other ones make soggy fries. ;)

Edited April 11, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[Erny]

i beg to differ. Delta is a brand just like any other brand or franchise. if i go into a macdonalds and have bad food then it is reasonable that i think all maccas are bad because the franchisees have been trained the same.

the same for de;ta trainers...they have all gone through the same training so they should all have the same methods, otherwise what id the point in the training and the certificate?

I can't answer for Delta, as I've not done their course. But if we were to trade "NDTF" for "Delta" in your sentence above, I couldn't agree with you, Jaxx'sBuddy. For the sheer reason that a course such as NDTF's teaches you not just one way to skin a cat (so to speak). Methodology can be the same, but you can have different techniques within that methodology to achieve the result you're after. To my knowledge, that is not what is taught behind some of the "franchises" that you speak of - their course duration alone would not permit that.

As I've mentioned, the basis for my early learning was NDTF. But since then I've done lots of seminar/workshops. So, am I an NDTF trainer? Or am I a Suzanne Clothier trainer? Or am I a Karen Wild trainer? Or perhaps an Uta Bindle trainer? No ..... wait, maybe I'm a Brenda Aloff trainer?

Hypothesise with me, if you will? For all you might otherwise know, I might have even decided to follow the "positive only" route. But on the basis of what you are saying above, you'd be suggesting that because I have done the NDTF course then I must use positive punishment and negative reinforcement as well as positive reinforcement and negative punishment. But that isn't necessarily truthful.

There are some schools that have been reported as not producing very good results in their pupils. Do you then hear of a pupil who has come from that school and automatically label that person as less intelligent than someone who has perhaps gone to a school that generally produces good results in their pupils?

I don't have much faith in the franchises that we know of. But some of those people might actually have a background in, say, NDTF, but chose to purchase the franchise for the exposure it might already have and the advertising support the franchise supplies. So, you judge that person because of the franchise name and not give consideration to the NDTF (or for that matter, Delta) accreditations the person might have? Whilst as I said, I don't have much faith in the franchises as we know them, I am aware there can be some who might be quite good, simply because of other knowledge and experience that person might have been armed with before taking on a franchise operation.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

I am sure there are some great trainers out there who have done the DELTA course, just as there are some bad ones. The only reason the NDTF course appeals to me more as a potential student is because I want to learn about all aspects of dog training, and the NDTF course is far more varied on this front than the Delta course. If I was a purely positive only trainer and would only ever be interested in doing purely positive training, I would probably be more inclined to do the Delta course.

[corvus]

I've "heard" a few things about NDTF and NDTF trainers, too. But I don't repeat 'em on public forums because it's hearsay and I don't have the facts.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i take your points on board about not all trainers are the same and thatb they bring their previous experience to the table BUT i am joe public and how was i to know it wasnt a franchise? why are people so sensitive? it is like asking if you vote labor or liberal or if you are protestant or catholic....it sseems to be belief based not analytically based.

i will defend myself when someone doesnt like it when i say I had a bad experience. I researched the training thoroughly before i went and my dog is reasonably food motivated but i wasnt delivered what it said on the box....in other words what i was told did not match up with what happened.

sorry if people dont like this but it was my experience.

[Erny]

And we appreciate that you were given expectations that weren't met, JB. And that's not a good feeling, nor is it right. And no - it's hard for "joe public" to know any different unless they have it explained to them and unfortunately we aren't often privileged to have the opportunity to do so.

I apologise if you might have felt 'hounded' with all our posts. I noted on one or two of mine that submitted only thereafter seeing that someone else had posted same or similar in the meantime.

But thanks for realising the point we were endeavouring to make and explain .

As a course in itself though, I do agree that Delta limits itself in accordance with its belief.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[Jeff Jones]

I've "heard" a few things about NDTF and NDTF trainers, too. But I don't repeat 'em on public forums because it's hearsay and I don't have the facts.

Yes, you are well known for only posting in threads on content that you have experience and knowledge on.

[Erny]

Hi Jeff. Good to see you. 'bout time you were visiting Melbourne again, isn't it? . Your dog doing your ironing yet?

[Kelpie-i]

I agree with what Cosmolo said a few posts ago...it's got nothing to do with the trainers that have come out of the Delta course, but more so the Delta organisation itself who seem to dictate to their students which seminars they should and shouldn't be attending, which method they should or shouldn't be using, which books to read and which to not. I am led to believe they did the same when Brenda Aloff came to Australia.

I was told of a Delta trainer who stated she would rather have a dog PTS rather than administer a correction for inappropriate behaviour...seriously. It is this sort of stuff that taints reputations.

Delta sounds more like a Cult nowadays...sorry but this is image they are portraying.

Oh and I also use positive, motivational based, luring, shaping and capturing methods (with and without a clicker) 99.99% percent of the time and I'm an NDTF trained trainer.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Kelpie-i