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[Aidan]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience???

Forgive my confusion, but are we talking about the same thing? How could you possibly know that the dog lacked general obedience because he barked continuously at the door bell? My dogs bark at the door bell and both of them have well above average general obedience

In any case, what has general obedience got to do with barking at the door bell? My grandmother's Shitzhu has appalling general obedience and she couldn't care less, it doesn't cause her any problems and the dog is easily groomed, seen to by the vet, walked etc If she came to me because her dog barked at the door bell (and she does bark at the door bell but my grandmother likes it, being elderly and living alone) I would just teach Bella not to bark at the door bell and everyone would be happy.

[Staranais]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience???

Forgive my confusion, but are we talking about the same thing? How could you possibly know that the dog lacked general obedience because he barked continuously at the door bell? My dogs bark at the door bell and both of them have well above average general obedience

In any case, what has general obedience got to do with barking at the door bell? My grandmother's Shitzhu has appalling general obedience and she couldn't care less, it doesn't cause her any problems and the dog is easily groomed, seen to by the vet, walked etc If she came to me because her dog barked at the door bell (and she does bark at the door bell but my grandmother likes it, being elderly and living alone) I would just teach Bella not to bark at the door bell and everyone would be happy.

Sounds to me like you're both talking about different things - sounds to me like Black Bronson wants the dog to be able to leave the door bell and shut up and relax on command, whereas Aidan wants to teach them not to bark at the door at all and go to their bed automatically when the doorbell rings?

Both sound like pretty good skills to have, depending on the situation & what the owner wants?

My girl will down stay and watch the door while I open it and greet people on command, but it's not automatic for her, I need to ask her to do so. I don't mind, though - I actually quite like having a big belgian sitting behind me watching the door & obviously waiting for my next command when I open the door late at night. Feels very safe. :D

[corvus]

On another note, I do enjoy your posts, m-j.

[Aidan]

whereas Aidan wants to teach them not to bark at the door at all and go to their bed automatically when the doorbell rings?

You got the "automatic" part right but I had actually described how to teach the dog to bark just a couple of times instead of continuously. Some people like their dog to bark at the door, just not until their ears bleed.

[Black Bronson]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience???

Forgive my confusion, but are we talking about the same thing? How could you possibly know that the dog lacked general obedience because he barked continuously at the door bell? My dogs bark at the door bell and both of them have well above average general obedience

In any case, what has general obedience got to do with barking at the door bell? My grandmother's Shitzhu has appalling general obedience and she couldn't care less, it doesn't cause her any problems and the dog is easily groomed, seen to by the vet, walked etc If she came to me because her dog barked at the door bell (and she does bark at the door bell but my grandmother likes it, being elderly and living alone) I would just teach Bella not to bark at the door bell and everyone would be happy.

When achieving general obedience, you don't have to make up all these situation specific routines is where I am coming from Aidan, as general obedience covers everything. My dogs bark at the door bell and stop barking to a "quiet" command. They also recall away from the front door, drop on command etc etc, so their general obedience over-rides any poor or unwanted behaviour. Also, when a dog has good general obedience as a foundation, it's easier to reach higher levels of performance from the dog.

[Black Bronson]

whereas Aidan wants to teach them not to bark at the door at all and go to their bed automatically when the doorbell rings?

You got the "automatic" part right but I had actually described how to teach the dog to bark just a couple of times instead of continuously. Some people like their dog to bark at the door, just not until their ears bleed.

Wouldn't teaching the "quite" command be just as effective Aidan???, also teaching the "quite" command it works anywhere and any time the dog barks, not just the door bell. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend time teaching one command to cover all situations instead of a hundred routines to cover every individual scenario which to me sounds like a lot of hard work and a lot of time on a behaviour that could be acheived a whole lot easier???.

[Erny]

Wouldn't teaching the "quite" command be just as effective Aidan???, also teaching the "quite" command it works anywhere and any time the dog barks, not just the door bell. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend time teaching one command to cover all situations instead of a hundred routines to cover every individual scenario which to me sounds like a lot of hard work and a lot of time on a behaviour that could be achieved a whole lot easier???.

Hi BB. I know you directed your question to Aidan - I hope you don't mind my input (based on my experience of it). For some dogs who are 'hard-wired' (just turning a phrase, so I add a "so to speak" disclaimer to that expression) about barking, I find neither the "quiet" command nor the "go to mat on cue of door knocking" works that well or reliably for many. BUT, I do find the difference between the two, BB, is that the "quiet" command is the more difficult for the dog to embrace self-control over, because it does not demand an alternative conditioned behaviour to exhibit instead of barking, so it is (I find) the more difficult for the dog to learn.

I've worked with a few people on the "go to the mat on door knock" routine and it has worked to some extent, although I find it is the PEOPLE who are problematic in fully teaching the dog this conditioned response. They're often great when they are practising it (and yes, many dogs catch on pretty quickly), but when it comes to the real deal (in which you have different people scents at the door; different body language from the dog-owner as they acknowledge the door knock; and other small - but noticeable to the dog - nuances, including owners who can't get past having to answer the door and not have people outside waiting for them) the owners become inconsistent with the training and often give up. (Just my experience.)

I find it easier to teach the dog to go to its crate (crate training comes first, of course) and for the owners to close the crate door whilst they then answer their own door. I am generalising of course, but this has proven to be a faster way of the dog learning; it removes much of the opportunity for inconsistencies (eg. dog breaking from the mat when the door opens) in the owner's training and teaches the dog it isn't their place to be greeting visitors at the door. If doing this is not enough to stop the dog from barking, often using a blanket over the crate helps for the early stages of training. This eventually can lead to the dog not needing the crate, but weaning off to a mat as in the go-to-mat 'trick'.

Mind you, I have other methods of training dogs to stop going crazy at the door as well that I often find are easier for the owner and by comparison to the aforementioned, quite effective. They are many and varied and what one I might suggest (and sometimes I might suggest a couple of ways, to suit different circumstances) depends on the dog and owner combo in question. Sometimes I use the "go to the mat" one (or as one of a couple) for people who have dogs that need more mental stimulation - in that way it serves two purposes. 1. The owner is happier for the preferred response (and is usually delighted at the 'cuteness' factor of it). 2. The dog is happier because the owner is spending time and also providing them with something to think about whilst they are training them.

ETA: Although I think this chatting about methods to stop a dog barking at the door knock is taking the thread way off track. Sorry to the OP.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Erny

[m-j]

I do find the difference between the two, BB, is that the "quiet" command is the more difficult for the dog to embrace self-control over, because it does not demand an alternative conditioned behaviour to exhibit instead of barking, so it is (I find) the more difficult for the dog to learn.

I agree from what I understand of Aidan's methodology, it is shaping. Shaping makes the alternative beahviour the dogs idea and because they are choosing to do it as opposed to what they were doing or what someone else wants them to do they will "take notice" of it. I suppose you could say you are pitting one "hard-wired" behaviour against another. The trick is to create the behaviour you want in the first place, which I'm assuming is why you need to throw the treat on the ground in the first place??? to get the lack of barking so it can be followed by other treats while the dog is quiet.

As I'm not and haven't been involved in the training process I could be completely wrong

cheers

M-J

[Black Bronson]

Wouldn't teaching the "quite" command be just as effective Aidan???, also teaching the "quite" command it works anywhere and any time the dog barks, not just the door bell. Wouldn't it be more effective to spend time teaching one command to cover all situations instead of a hundred routines to cover every individual scenario which to me sounds like a lot of hard work and a lot of time on a behaviour that could be achieved a whole lot easier???.

Hi BB. I know you directed your question to Aidan - I hope you don't mind my input (based on my experience of it). For some dogs who are 'hard-wired' (just turning a phrase, so I add a "so to speak" disclaimer to that expression) about barking, I find neither the "quiet" command nor the "go to mat on cue of door knocking" works that well or reliably for many. BUT, I do find the difference between the two, BB, is that the "quiet" command is the more difficult for the dog to embrace self-control over, because it does not demand an alternative conditioned behaviour to exhibit instead of barking, so it is (I find) the more difficult for the dog to learn.

I've worked with a few people on the "go to the mat on door knock" routine and it has worked to some extent, although I find it is the PEOPLE who are problematic in fully teaching the dog this conditioned response. They're often great when they are practising it (and yes, many dogs catch on pretty quickly), but when it comes to the real deal (in which you have different people scents at the door; different body language from the dog-owner as they acknowledge the door knock; and other small - but noticeable to the dog - nuances, including owners who can't get past having to answer the door and not have people outside waiting for them) the owners become inconsistent with the training and often give up. (Just my experience.)

I find it easier to teach the dog to go to its crate (crate training comes first, of course) and for the owners to close the crate door whilst they then answer their own door. I am generalising of course, but this has proven to be a faster way of the dog learning; it removes much of the opportunity for inconsistencies (eg. dog breaking from the mat when the door opens) in the owner's training and teaches the dog it isn't their place to be greeting visitors at the door. If doing this is not enough to stop the dog from barking, often using a blanket over the crate helps for the early stages of training. This eventually can lead to the dog not needing the crate, but weaning off to a mat as in the go-to-mat 'trick'.

Mind you, I have other methods of training dogs to stop going crazy at the door as well that I often find are easier for the owner and by comparison to the aforementioned, quite effective. They are many and varied and what one I might suggest (and sometimes I might suggest a couple of ways, to suit different circumstances) depends on the dog and owner combo in question. Sometimes I use the "go to the mat" one (or as one of a couple) for people who have dogs that need more mental stimulation - in that way it serves two purposes. 1. The owner is happier for the preferred response (and is usually delighted at the 'cuteness' factor of it). 2. The dog is happier because the owner is spending time and also providing them with something to think about whilst they are training them.

ETA: Although I think this chatting about methods to stop a dog barking at the door knock is taking the thread way off track. Sorry to the OP.

Hi Erny,

Your input always welcome

Where I am coming from is that many people have problem behaviours they are trying to control like typically barking at the door bell. But generally you find the obedience of these door bell obsessives isn't good either. They won't recall reliably, they won't sit stay, they break drops and mostly only behave at times of mininum distraction. A dog trained with a good level of general obedience as their behavioural foundation are controllable by command and don't exhibit the obsessive behaviour of the partially trained dogs.

So I am thinking.........is it best to work on and train to correct a nuisence behaviour like door bell barking, or work on and train general obedience so that nuisence behaviour is then controllable???. I am probably looking at high level working dog obedience not usually attained by the average pet owner, but even still, uncontrolled barking is a common nuisence which I think for any dog ownership conditioning a "quiet" command is a great feature to have up the sleeve.

I have been working on the "quite" command with our 9 week old working line GSD puppy in his crate.........wish me luck Erny, but he's just starting to respond in the last couple of days.

[JulesP]

I am spewing my old dog is deaf. She knew barking wasn't allowed, although she rarely barked herself, and would go and tell the youngsters off if they barked! Worked beautifully.

[Kavik]

Where I am coming from is that many people have problem behaviours they are trying to control like typically barking at the door bell. But generally you find the obedience of these door bell obsessives isn't good either. They won't recall reliably, they won't sit stay, they break drops and mostly only behave at times of mininum distraction. A dog trained with a good level of general obedience as their behavioural foundation are controllable by command and don't exhibit the obsessive behaviour of the partially trained dogs.

So I am thinking.........is it best to work on and train to correct a nuisence behaviour like door bell barking, or work on and train general obedience so that nuisence behaviour is then controllable???. I am probably looking at high level working dog obedience not usually attained by the average pet owner, but even still, uncontrolled barking is a common nuisence which I think for any dog ownership conditioning a "quiet" command is a great feature to have up the sleeve.

I have been working on the "quite" command with our 9 week old working line GSD puppy in his crate.........wish me luck Erny, but he's just starting to respond in the last couple of days.

What if they don't care about or don't want to do that level of obedience training? Many people don't. I've had people approach me on walks asking if I could help with problem behaviours including barking at the door. I doubt many of them care about getting to a high level of obedience, they just want a way of dealing with the barking at the door from their pet dog. While I am interested in teaching high level training behaviours to my own dogs, many people just want a pet that they can walk and not be a nuisance. I can certainly see the merit in what Aidan is saying, and I was going to use a go to the mat scenario shaping the mat to doorbell myself to fix this sort of problem for others.

[Aidan3]

When achieving general obedience, you don't have to make up all these situation specific routines is where I am coming from Aidan, as general obedience covers everything.

Sure, for those who have good general obedience there is no sense in reinventing the wheel. I use a trained "shush" myself. I don't know a lot of people who teach a trained "shush" unless they actually have a problem like this (or compete in obedience) so I'm not sure whether it's any less work, probably more if anything.

[Aidan3]

The trick is to create the behaviour you want in the first place, which I'm assuming is why you need to throw the treat on the ground in the first place??? to get the lack of barking so it can be followed by other treats while the dog is quiet.

Yes, well, very close at least!

We want the dog to bark a couple of times then shut up, this is two responses. So the dog starts to bark, this is correct so we click, a clicker-trained dog who hasn't been deliberately trained to continue after hearing the click will usually stop, anticipating the food. Then while still eating they are definitely not barking, so we click again and toss another treat.

[corvus]

Aidan, that sounds very much like Leslie McDevitt's Look At That game that I am such a huge fan of. She uses the click both as a bridge to reward looking at something and simultaneously using the click as an interrupter of further staring. So then you have your dog's attention and it's a lot easier to hold it by clicking for glances at the interesting/scary thing. Steven Lindsay was talking about how great clickers are as bridges because the sound is quite sharp and so it's always a little surprise. A good way to jolt them off one "track" and onto the "let's train!" track.

[Black Bronson]

Where I am coming from is that many people have problem behaviours they are trying to control like typically barking at the door bell. But generally you find the obedience of these door bell obsessives isn't good either. They won't recall reliably, they won't sit stay, they break drops and mostly only behave at times of mininum distraction. A dog trained with a good level of general obedience as their behavioural foundation are controllable by command and don't exhibit the obsessive behaviour of the partially trained dogs.

So I am thinking.........is it best to work on and train to correct a nuisence behaviour like door bell barking, or work on and train general obedience so that nuisence behaviour is then controllable???. I am probably looking at high level working dog obedience not usually attained by the average pet owner, but even still, uncontrolled barking is a common nuisence which I think for any dog ownership conditioning a "quiet" command is a great feature to have up the sleeve.

I have been working on the "quite" command with our 9 week old working line GSD puppy in his crate.........wish me luck Erny, but he's just starting to respond in the last couple of days.

What if they don't care about or don't want to do that level of obedience training? Many people don't. I've had people approach me on walks asking if I could help with problem behaviours including barking at the door. I doubt many of them care about getting to a high level of obedience, they just want a way of dealing with the barking at the door from their pet dog. While I am interested in teaching high level training behaviours to my own dogs, many people just want a pet that they can walk and not be a nuisance. I can certainly see the merit in what Aidan is saying, and I was going to use a go to the mat scenario shaping the mat to doorbell myself to fix this sort of problem for others.

There is merit in what Aidan is saying for the door bell situation, but it doesn't correct other nuisence barking issues that dogs being dogs exhibit. I prefer to work on the actual "barking" it's self to have control in all barking scenarios. Training a "quiet" command works in all situations, the door bell, the side fence, in the car etc etc. The training effort to control the barking I feel is more productive than conditioning for a multitude of individual situations

[Black Bronson]

When achieving general obedience, you don't have to make up all these situation specific routines is where I am coming from Aidan, as general obedience covers everything.

Sure, for those who have good general obedience there is no sense in reinventing the wheel. I use a trained "shush" myself. I don't know a lot of people who teach a trained "shush" unless they actually have a problem like this (or compete in obedience) so I'm not sure whether it's any less work, probably more if anything.

I really enjoy an obedient dog and always teach "quite", "leave it" and several other general commands that people don't seem to teach much anymore. I believe a better result is obtained and less time spent on general behaviour than individual situations. A dog corrected of door bell behaviour doesn't help fence barking annoying the neighbours.

[corvus]

I think you mean "quiet". And it is a command that has to be generalised same as everything else. "Quiet" when your dog is waiting for you to throw them a ball at home is not necessarily the same as "quiet" when your dog is waiting for you to throw them a ball at the dog park. Furthermore, "quiet" is a reactive command. I personally am not fond of spending all my time reacting to my dogs. And lastly, barking is a symptom. It goes away if you treat the cause - if that's what you want. The problem is that sometimes that cause is the desperate need to communicate, and in that case I think it's self-rewarding. Someone wrote that dogs are intensely superstitious about what their barking causes. I can't remember who said that, now.

Whether or not there is nuisance barking at other times as well is adding a layer of complexity to the whole problem that doesn't necessarily exist. Whether or not the dog has been trained in general is adding another layer of complexity that doesn't necessarily exist.

[Erny]

I really enjoy an obedient dog and always teach "quiet", "leave it" and several other general commands that people don't seem to teach much anymore. I believe a better result is obtained and less time spent on general behaviour than individual situations. A dog corrected of door bell behaviour doesn't help fence barking annoying the neighbours.

I teach "enough" and "leave", so it is still being taught and perhaps more than you might assume. It's just that for the "hard-wired" barking at the door dogs, sometimes teaching "quiet" isn't enough or successful.

[JulesP]

I teach STFU....

[Herr Rottweiler]

I teach STFU....

Now thats funny