Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[Staranais]

The problem comes when distractions are not introduced correctly, or if the owner accidentally tightens the leash or attempts to use poorly timed corrections. If the dog doesn't feel that he can control the consequence through his behaviour then the result is stress, you get more fall-out, you get slower learning, you get displacement behaviours etc Most people are oblivious to it. Very easily managed with a double-ended leash though.

This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

I'm wondering if all these things we call rewards - prey, food, attention, praise, sex - are way less important to dogs than the one, overarching "meta reward" of being able to control the environment (and therefore predict and control access to the good stuff, and predict and prevent the bad stuff).

Unpredictability seems to be anathema to just about all of the animals I have worked with. Whereas the dogs I've worked with all seems to really, really appreciate clarity and consistency.

Which, if true, would have big consequences for which training methods are kinder to the dog. Anything easy for them to understand, anything that allows them to feel that they control the trainer, may well make them happier than something confusing or unpredictable, no matter how "kind" or "unkind" each method is.

Can a predictable punisher ever be "kinder" (in the sense of making the dog happier) than an unpredictable reinforcer?

Can a positive training session be perceived as "negative" overall by the dog, if it's frustrating?

Can a training session based on punishment be perceived as "positive" overall by the dog, if it enhances the dog's feeling of understanding or control?

I haven't actually formed my own judgement on that yet, just throwing it out on the table for discussion.

[Nekhbet]

One of the fastest ways to extinguish a response is to reinforce it continuously first so that the dog expects a reinforcer and figures out quickly that something has changed when there isn't one.

isnt that the long way round the short track? Why not simply apply an aversive so the dog not only gets no reward but sees there is a consequence to the action which further decreases any rewarding factor in the behavior, then show the alternative wanted behavior and highly reward that. And by reinforcing an unwanted behavior are you not risking making it more appetetive and maybe becoming self rewarding to the dog, ergo harder to then extinguish later on? Not all dogs are great problem solvers and thinkers either, some continue the behavior with or without direct owner reinforcement or simply cannot nut out whats going on without being shown.

If I constantly reinforce my dog barking at the front door for some weeks, then stop reinforcing it (and presumably cue a more desireable behaviour), then I should see a decrease in barking?

I would consider something like that to have an element of self reward in some dogs. A bit of food or a toy is not always enough to overthrow what the dog sees as rewarding. So if rewards are difficult do we then start deprivation in order to get our goal?

Edited April 20, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Nekhbet]

Can a predictable punisher ever be "kinder" (in the sense of making the dog happier) than an unpredictable reinforcer?

Can a positive training session be perceived as "negative" overall by the dog, if it's frustrating?

Can a training session based on punishment be perceived as "positive" overall by the dog, if it enhances the dog's feeling of understanding or control?

You have a point. An example I am dealing with a terrier at the moment who has leash aggression. Let him off he's a different dog but on leash he is a macho man I corrected him for trying to start his usual BS, then showed him the alternative behavior and rewarded the hell out of him. If he passed a dog and gave me focus he got more rewards and was made a fuss over. If he tried to go back into aggressive mode he was corrected and we tried again, he got a chance to gain a reward on his own and decide if having a go at that dog waaaay over there was really worth it. PP methods failed, he was called permanenly aggressive and asked to leave the old club. He has gone from a ball of fury to wagging his tail, nice fast obedience and you see him making a decision that reward is better then trying to bite the other dog and getting a correction. Anxiety and excitement has gone right down to a calm, relaxed, happy dog who can now learn faster because he is CHOOSING to focus and work for me. I gave him clear options, made it black and white for him which made life a lot easier for him to cope with. Something like capturing and free shaping in a dog like this for even basic obedience would have been a further catalyst for unruley behavior - he's not happy, he's not calm, he's not in the right frame of mind to learn. Adding an aversive made it clear to him and his recall from a group of dogs is also fabulous, he runs straight back and sits for me with a big smile.

[Aidan]

Let me see if I'm following this correctly. If the "lure to sit" example I gave is an extinction procedure, the response that will be extinguished is the failure to sit?

Failure to do something isn't a response, but whatever the dog was doing at the time is a response and that is what you are likely to see extinguish (probably very quickly in the example given).

If I constantly reinforce my dog barking at the front door for some weeks, then stop reinforcing it (and presumably cue a more desireable behaviour), then I should see a decrease in barking?

It's not a good example because it would be very difficult to discontinue all reinforcement for this response.

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

[Aidan]

The problem comes when distractions are not introduced correctly, or if the owner accidentally tightens the leash or attempts to use poorly timed corrections. If the dog doesn't feel that he can control the consequence through his behaviour then the result is stress, you get more fall-out, you get slower learning, you get displacement behaviours etc Most people are oblivious to it. Very easily managed with a double-ended leash though.

This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

I'm wondering if all these things we call rewards - prey, food, attention, praise, sex - are way less important to dogs than the one, overarching "meta reward" of being able to control the environment (and therefore predict and control access to the good stuff, and predict and prevent the bad stuff).

That's an interesting thought and I think you are on to something. On the topic of what you have called "meta rewards" you might also be interested in Panksepp's concept of "SEEKer circuits" and the possibly related concept of "contra-freeloading".

[poodlefan]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

now that would be terrific for most dog owners to know how to do, me included

[Staff'n'Toller]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

now that would be terrific for most dog owners to know how to do, me included

Actually the manners minder food dispenser was developed mostly for this and it's remarkable how quickly it works.

[Aidan]

One of the fastest ways to extinguish a response is to reinforce it continuously first so that the dog expects a reinforcer and figures out quickly that something has changed when there isn't one.

isnt that the long way round the short track? Why not simply apply an aversive so the dog not only gets no reward but sees there is a consequence to the action which further decreases any rewarding factor in the behavior, then show the alternative wanted behavior and highly reward that.

My statement was in response to a specific example and was evidence that dogs undergoing extinction procedures do expect the reinforcer (which is why extinction only works for previously reinforced responses, and why it works better after continuous reinforcement).

But yes, you can use punishers. Whether it would be any better or not would depend on the circumstances. The very broad statement regarding punishers, first noticed by Skinner and repeated over and over again, is that they are "unreliable". Reinforcing an alternative response improves the outcome but then you are no longer taking the long way around the short track regardless of whether you use a punisher or not. Differential Reinforcement of Alternative responses (DRA) gets very quick results and there is no risk of fall-out.

And by reinforcing an unwanted behavior are you not risking making it more appetetive and maybe becoming self rewarding to the dog, ergo harder to then extinguish later on?

Not really. Once you put it under extinction the classical conditioning is dissociated very quickly. Good question though.

Not all dogs are great problem solvers and thinkers either, some continue the behavior with or without direct owner reinforcement or simply cannot nut out whats going on without being shown.

Yes, DRA is usually preferable. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that the dog needs to be a great problem solver for this to be effective, none of the data suggests that this is required and cognition isn't even required for a lot of this learning. It can even happen subconsciously with no learner awareness whatsoever - and does, to HUMANS, every day! Horses are relatively poor problem solvers and they have no trouble learning through these mechanisms.

If I constantly reinforce my dog barking at the front door for some weeks, then stop reinforcing it (and presumably cue a more desireable behaviour), then I should see a decrease in barking?

I would consider something like that to have an element of self reward in some dogs. A bit of food or a toy is not always enough to overthrow what the dog sees as rewarding. So if rewards are difficult do we then start deprivation in order to get our goal?

We need to establish operations one way or another. Deprivation is sometimes used. Habituation is another possible mechanism. Extinction might be employed. There are many ways to skin that cat. If I can make one thing clear the reinforcer used need not be "greater" than the reinforcer freely available in the environment. There is boatloads of data to support my assertions on this.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

now that would be terrific for most dog owners to know how to do, me included

Actually the manners minder food dispenser was developed mostly for this and it's remarkable how quickly it works.

thank you i will look into this.

[W Sibs]

Wow... very interesting read everyone.

Hi

I am just beginning to look into doing a Dog Behaviour and Dog Training course. I have been assisting in classes at our local dog school for over a year and have just in the last couple of months started taking classes.

The school i instruct at believes in positive / reward based training but dont push it as far as Delta would have it - we do say no ha ha

I am learning loads all the time and love what i am doing but would like to get a formal qualification in the future.

I know a few people who are doing the Delta course and to be honest it has put me off doing it as i dont believe in some of what they teach but wandered if anyone had done the NDTF long distance course.

Thanks

I'm starting my long distance course in August. I can't wait!! I'll tell you how it goes when I start the course.

[Aidan]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

[Erny]

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

I taught my friend to teach this to her two dogs. It was when I was dogless and I wanted to use my friend's dogs as demo dogs for one of the Casey Microchipping Day events. It worked really well and wasn't too difficult to teach, although I had to use a couple of small blocks of wood to 'knock' together, because we were demo'ing outdoors.

Unfortunately her dogs came down with Canine Cough a day before the event, so we weren't able to demo at all.

I have the steps of the trick written out on Pro-K9's "Hot Tips" Facebook page, which is linked through my website, if anyone wants to see it. Just don't mind the order of things I've written there so far. Facebook confuses me a little and I've realised in hind-sight I haven't set things out as best as they could be. Also, more tips etc. to be added.

..... sorry, I've forgotten myself and just realised the thread I was in. This is very off topic and I'll delete it if you think I should. Pardon me.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

Well I will tell you one thing, to use positive methods effectively you need a hell of a lot more knowledge about what motivates dogs and how to tackle an issue than to just give the dog a quick punishment and problem gone! So just think of that next time someone is devoting their time to learning positive methods, there is so much to learn perhaps we don't want to waste our time learning to use punishment when there are so many others out there quite happy to use it if you ever want to refer on (not to mention so much to read on the reasons why not to use punishment, I'd rather be reading up on that than reading up on the punishments you can use and how to use them).

Wow that really is quite arrogant.

Why imply that a trainer who understands how to use aversives/corrections (of which you are one, IMO, if you are happy to use head collars or anti-pull harnesses) doesn't have as much knowledge about "positive methods" as a so called PP trainer? That the way they train doesn't take as much skill and knowledge as the way a PP trainer trains? What a load of crap.

Why do you think that just because a trainer has learned about all four quadrants and is prepared to use a range of methods that they therefore don't strive to learn as much as they can about ALL aspects of dog training, especially positive methods? That because they might find occasions however rare where a problem cannot be solved best by using positive reinforcement they therefore don't have as much knowledge on how to use P+ as a strictly PP trainer? Why do you assume that those trainers don't dedicate a hell of a lot of time learning about how to train dogs with "positive methods"?

[huski]

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

I taught my friend to teach this to her two dogs. It was when I was dogless and I wanted to use my friend's dogs as demo dogs for one of the Casey Microchipping Day events. It worked really well and wasn't too difficult to teach, although I had to use a couple of small blocks of wood to 'knock' together, because we were demo'ing outdoors.

Unfortunately her dogs came down with Canine Cough a day before the event, so we weren't able to demo at all.

I have the steps of the trick written out on Pro-K9's "Hot Tips" Facebook page, which is linked through my website, if anyone wants to see it. Just don't mind the order of things I've written there so far. Facebook confuses me a little and I've realised in hind-sight I haven't set things out as best as they could be. Also, more tips etc. to be added.

..... sorry, I've forgotten myself and just realised the thread I was in. This is very off topic and I'll delete it if you think I should. Pardon me.

Don't apologise Erny, I didn't realise you had a FB group, so this post was useful for me (I have become a fan ).

[Staff'n'Toller]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

I've used that slightly differently for my young dog, bark twice out in the yard then come inside. I must say I haven't reinforced it in quite a while but it's still quite reliable.

Not long ago he was barking down at the gate and didn't come in, I went out the back to investigate and someone was nicking stuff from my car in the driveway!!

[Erny]

Don't apologise Erny, I didn't realise you had a FB group, so this post was useful for me (I have become a fan ).

Thanks, Huski. But was it the "Pro-K9 Hot Tips" (I want to change the name of that) Facebook page, or my other one? I have a feeling I didn't hit the "publish" button for the "Hot Tips" page. Gotta go check that.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

Don't apologise Erny, I didn't realise you had a FB group, so this post was useful for me (I have become a fan :p).

Thanks, Huski. But was it the "Pro-K9 Hot Tips" (I want to change the name of that) Facebook page, or my other one? I have a feeling I didn't hit the "publish" button for the "Hot Tips" page. Gotta go check that.

Oh I didn't realise there was more than one! I joined this one;

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Pro-K...08280663?ref=ts

I couldn't find the Hot Tips one?

[m-j]

Can a predictable punisher ever be "kinder" (in the sense of making the dog happier) than an unpredictable reinforcer?

If a punisher was predicable the behaviours that cause the punisher shouldn't be displayed, unless the punisher isn't effective. Another possibility is that the behaviour is desirable enough for the dog to display and basically ignore the punisher even if it is considered unpleasant by the dog.

If I was being taught to do something with my teacher using punishment by someone that couldn't communicate to me exactly what I was doing wrong, if it took several trials to work it out I would become frustrated/worried. I had this experience when learning a new job once I became very worried until someone who understood how to train someone taught me. I imagine most dogs would probably feel the same.

Can a positive training session be perceived as "negative" overall by the dog, if it's frustrating?

Yes but if the dog isn't receiving positive reinforcement or drive satisfaction (eventually) could you call it a positive training session? I think this would be very frustrating to both dog and handler. This in my opinion would be a trainer fault by not setting the dog up to succeed.

Can a training session based on punishment be perceived as "positive" overall by the dog, if it enhances the dog's feeling of understanding or control?

Yes, but the dog has to learn and eliminate the unwanted responses to achieve control of the punishers, up until that point I can't see that a dog would perceive the training session as positive. Particularly with behaviours that have several criteria to be achieved for the behaviour to be executed correctly i.e. walking at heel. I also think that possibly the dog would feel positive in the respect of the relief at the absence of the punisher (which can be extremely satisfying) as opposed to actually feeling good about the actual training process. If you were up to that stage of training wouldn't it be maintenance training as opposed to actually teaching something?

Just some thoughts.

cheers

M-J

Edited April 20, 2010 by m-j

[Black Bronson]

If you reinforce an alternative response you can get that alternative response very quickly. The interesting thing about that example is that if you discontinue reinforcement for the alternative response, the previous behaviour often comes back very quickly. The same is true when a punisher is used.

No doubt you've seen it but I've seen video of a dog cued to go to his bed (rather than rush to the door barking) when the doorbell was used. Reliability occured VERY quickly.

Used sensibly, it's very potent. I think there is an article on clickertraining.com that shows how this is trained.

My favourite technique with door-bell barkers is to teach them to bark briefly instead of continuously. All you do is click then toss a treat when they have barked for 1 second (or whatever you want, so long as you are consistent). Then click while they are eating, then toss another treat. Knock on the door again to repeat. Next time click for the same amount of barking, but click again for slightly more silence. Simple, effective, works from day one.

I may be a bit thick, but I don't get this at all Aidan Are you trying to teach a disobedient partially trained dog not to bark at the door bell, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with door bell behaviour instead of concentrating on general obedience???. If the door bell procedure (above) is necessary, the dog in terms of it's general obedience is hopelessly lacking in that case. I like to achieve the situation where the dog recalls off the front door, drops and relaxes on command and will do so with any distraction across the board. It's not about door bells ringing and barking dogs, it's about training a dog in obedience to relax on command and stop barking. I just don't see any basic obedience foundations being applied.