Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[wayrod]

A couple around the corner from us have a very nice young male Boxer who is 13 months old. I have seen them many times when walking my dogs and the poor Boxer is all over the place dragging the owners around on a silly harness. A couple of weeks ago I ran across them on a walk and they commented how well our GSD behaves on leash and asked who trained him looking for a recommendation and began to tell me this horror story that had happened to them with trainers.

They originally went to an obedience school and were kicked out as their Boxer was disruptive and sent to a vetinary behaviourist. They were recommended to have some tests done on the dog to make sure he had all his wits about him and then he was de-sexed to improve his behavior. He was then recommended by the vetianary behaviourist another trainer for a one on one program. To cut along story short $1450 later, the have an out of control Boxer bouncing on the end of a harness in the belief that their dog has an genetic disorder and should be PTS, all from the Delta system of complete fools in this case.

I offered to help them purely as the thought of PTS of such a lovely dog for no reason other than adolescent uncontrollability was rediculous and met them at the park. The Boxer was perfect and a friendly bouncy boy of untrained energy. With my prong collar and a handful of doggy treats, in 20 minutes I had that Boxer walking beautifully on a loose leash. In one hour, we had the same with both husband and wife handling the dog. I saw them this afternoon, the Boxer is on a martingale and is 90% leash trained in two weeks. WTF , these owners of the Boxer are inexperienced, didn't know any better and were trying to do the right thing and were taken for a ride through total incompetence

Clarification please:

The bold wording regarding prong collars please. My belief is that they are illegal to use in Victoria! POCTA Regs 2008.

BTW: With either Delta or NDTF courses did either of the courses cover legal/legislative and responsibility issues of being a dog trainer.

[Kelpie-i]

Wayrod: BTW: With either Delta or NDTF courses did either of the courses cover legal/legislative and responsibility issues of being a dog trainer

Why are you asking Wayrod, you've done the NDTF course, so you should know the answer to that

[poodlefan]

The Delta Society have done some bloody wonderful things in the dogs as therapy and child safety areas. I think the problems began when they started trying to become all things to all people. "Humane dog training" is a commendable goal. It's how you get there that tends to be the problem IMO.

They appear to dominate the agenda of the Australian APDT and I resigned my membership of that organisation when it banned all discussion/use of e-collars. I've never owned one or used one but I refuse to be a part of an organisation that decrees that a tool that has been successfully and humanely used for a variety of purposes shall be verbotten from the tools its trainers may use.

I know a few Delta certified trainers. I'm sure most folk heavily into dog sports or training do. Their strengths and weaknesses are varied but few seem well set up to deal with hard headed dogs with ingrained undesireable behaviours. Seems to me they if they put as much effort into tackling some behaviours head on as devising methods to manage them, there'd be more happy dog owners out there.

Most people can train owners of food motivated, people focussed dogs to teach their dogs the things required of them. Where the challenge is is thinking outside the box to deal with the unusual or challenging cases. Training methods that tie trainers hands behind their backs by decreeing that certain tools or methods are verbotten aren't setting them up to help more challenging dogs IMO.

Haltis and clickers are not the be all and end all of dog training.

Agree ...Poodlefan hits the nail on the head and speaks like a true professional. Everything I was thinking, just written much more eloquently than I could ever put it.

'Cept I ain't one. Not a professional trainer anyway. That's another thing the Delta advertising glosses over. My dog training club has been training handlers and instructors for over 50 years. All those training are volunteers. A significant number of those years have focussed on positive training methods We've had delta trainees who were not club instuctors ask to use our handlers for their practicals (ah, no).

Some of our instructors rung rings around many Delta graduates. Course certification doesn't guarantee quality. Anyone familiar with Australian Standards would tell you that

[wayrod]

Wayrod: BTW: With either Delta or NDTF courses did either of the courses cover legal/legislative and responsibility issues of being a dog trainer

Why are you asking Wayrod, you've done the NDTF course, so you should know the answer to that

Yes I have undertaken a number of courses, seminars and like in my forty+ years with dogs and having previously worked for the Min of Ed as a former Training and Development officer I know that course materials/curriculum can be and is often modified over the years to either keep abreast with current trends, practices and the like. What material is in one course may have been modified added to or parts deleted by the time the same course is next conducted, whilst still meeting the requirements of the NQF. As for the course that I did with NDTF I would have to say that legal/legislative and responsibility issues of being a dog trainer was not covered to a satisfactory level.

But enough about me!

I am surprised that someone would openly place on a forum that they had used prong collars when it is illegal to use this item in Victoria and has so been for a number of years.

Edited April 14, 2010 by wayrod

[Cosmolo]

Where does it say black bronson is a trainer? I can't find it

[nicole75]

Well we went to our first training session on Wednesday and I thought it was fantastic. Both the trainers were lovely and knowledagble. :-)

So far so good for me and my pup

[Erny]

That's great, Nicole75, and how it should be. Regardless of where the trainers' education base lays, PPS is pretty much predominantly if not wholly 'positive' methods. If the trainer knows what they are doing and about in relation to puppy psych (and the usual developmental issues that accompanies that), and have good intelligence about how to structure their classes so that there is minimum stress on any of the pups (nor, hopefully, on the handlers) then all should be good. Continue to enjoy your pup and PPS .... in a blink of an eye, pup won't be so "puppy" anymore.

[MolassesLass]

I'm a bit concerned now...I am taking my 12 week old puppy to preschool tonight at the vet clinic where they use the Delta methods.

Don't be concerned, chances are you'll be with a very capable trainer and you'll learn heaps. There may be a couple of not so good ones out there, but there are also many wonderful Delta trainers, and at the end of the day, you're not going to "ruin" your dog by using their methods, even if you do find yourself with a not so good trainer. Their methods are kind and gentle and will help build a better relationship with your dog

I'd rather take my pup to a Delta puppy preschool than some place where the instructor wanted me to alpha roll it for any "dominance" displayed.

Just don't panic if your pup barks madly in excitement, jumps all over the other pups and squashes them. It may not necessarily be "aggressive".

And indicative that the 12 week old puppy needed to be PTS as one "qualified" trainer told a puppy owner of mine. (Delta aligned)

[Staranais]

I'm a bit concerned now...I am taking my 12 week old puppy to preschool tonight at the vet clinic where they use the Delta methods.

Don't be concerned, chances are you'll be with a very capable trainer and you'll learn heaps. There may be a couple of not so good ones out there, but there are also many wonderful Delta trainers, and at the end of the day, you're not going to "ruin" your dog by using their methods, even if you do find yourself with a not so good trainer. Their methods are kind and gentle and will help build a better relationship with your dog

I'd rather take my pup to a Delta puppy preschool than some place where the instructor wanted me to alpha roll it for any "dominance" displayed.

Just don't panic if your pup barks madly in excitement, jumps all over the other pups and squashes them. It may not necessarily be "aggressive".

And indicative that the 12 week old puppy needed to be PTS as one "qualified" trainer told a puppy owner of mine. (Delta aligned)

Oh dear.

[Erny]

Oh dear.

+ 1

[Herr Rottweiler]

seems to be the popular choice with anyone spouting, "humane training methods" for any dogs offering a bit of a challenge.

[Erny]

seems to be the popular choice with anyone spouting, "humane training methods" for any dogs offering a bit of a challenge.

I guess if these 'groups' have vowed against the use of positive punishment they get to a point where there is no other option for them, nowhere else to go. Which narrows down the options for the dogs under their care/advice/instruction as well.

ETA: Welcome back, HR. Hope you enjoyed your holiday .

Edited April 17, 2010 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

seems to be the popular choice with anyone spouting, "humane training methods" for any dogs offering a bit of a challenge.

I guess if these 'groups' have vowed against the use of positive punishment they get to a point where there is no other option for them, nowhere else to go. Which narrows down the options for the dogs under their care/advice/instruction as well.

ETA: Welcome back, HR. Hope you enjoyed your holiday .

I think this whole "humane" argument needs to be re-examined! We have lunatic groups who spout human rights for some of the most deranged people on the planet and yet we have people who offer the death penalty rather than put a little work into the dog!!!

I have no issue with recommending euthanisa if the dog is mindlessly out of control and dangerous, however some of the PTS cases that have been sent to me are a joke, as are the individuals pushing it!

Steven Lindsay hit the nail right on the head when he stated that the only way is a balanced way.

Thanks for the welcome back Erny...i wasnt having a holiday..i was working...although it was more like a working holiday lol

[Staranais]

To be fair, I would imagine there may also be some balanced or traditional trainers who advise PTS when they can't fix the issue themselves? I haven't heard of it happening, but I've met some fairly crappy and unskilled traditional trainers in my life too, so I can imagine it must sometimes occur.

[poodlefan]

To be fair, I would imagine there may also be some balanced or traditional trainers who advise PTS when they can't fix the issue themselves? I haven't heard of it happening, but I've met some fairly crappy and unskilled traditional trainers in my life too, so I can imagine it must sometimes occur.

I know someone I highly respect has done. The dog was large, powerful and HA. Not suitable for rehoming (obviously) or for behaviour modification living with with its current family. Trainer said he'd never seen a dog like it. Absolutely hard wired for aggresion he said.

It was the combination of dog/family that prompted his recommendation. With another family, it might have been different.

[Staranais]

To be fair, I would imagine there may also be some balanced or traditional trainers who advise PTS when they can't fix the issue themselves? I haven't heard of it happening, but I've met some fairly crappy and unskilled traditional trainers in my life too, so I can imagine it must sometimes occur.

I know someone I highly respect has done. The dog was large, powerful and HA. Not suitable for rehoming (obviously) or for behaviour modification living with with its current family. Trainer said he'd never seen a dog like it. Absolutely hard wired for aggresion he said.

It was the combination of dog/family that prompted his recommendation. With another family, it might have been different.

Oh yes, I have heard of incidents like that too, but I wasn't really meaning good trainers that make a reasonable call to PTS dogs that have genuine issues and that are a liability to the family they are living with.

I was more meaning that I suspect there are crappy balanced trainers out there that make unreasonable calls to PTS dogs that are fixable but they just can't deal with themselves, like the positive-only trainer discussed in this thread that thought the 11 week old puppy should be PTS for aggression since she didn't know how to fix it.

Or perhaps I'm wrong - perhaps crappy balanced trainers less likely to make an unreasonable call to PTS than crappy positive trainers are?

[Herr Rottweiler]

Its a fact that some dogs should be PTS. They should have the right to a second opinion before some unqualified, bias hack decides to play god.

In addition, sending the dog for a second opinion to a carbon copy trainer will just mean certain doom for the dog anyway.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Herr Rottweiler

[corvus]

I guess if these 'groups' have vowed against the use of positive punishment they get to a point where there is no other option for them, nowhere else to go. Which narrows down the options for the dogs under their care/advice/instruction as well.

Yet, there is a hell of a lot you can achieve without positive punishment if you know what you're about. I used to watch it weekly on Barking Mad when I was living in the States. Aggressive turtle? No problem, positive methods all the way. Aggressive sheep? Lets teach it agility and how to walk on a leash with rewards - look at that, no more aggression towards people. Pony that chases and bites its owners? A little R-, a lot of R+ and the problem is solved. They dealt with everything from a bored octopus to a GSD that needed to be muzzled when visitors came and I don't ever remember them resorting to P+. They might have done aversion training with noise, but I'm not sure. I was starting to think there was nothing that team of behaviourists couldn't handle with rewards and environmental enrichment alone. Seeing it done in so many varying situations with such wildly different animals was a pretty good lesson in just how far you could get without P+ if you could identify what the problem at the root of the animal's behaviour was.

The problem is not the philosophy, but the inability to apply it particularly well.

Edited April 18, 2010 by corvus

[Herr Rottweiler]

Corvus, training should be a positive experience. Who really wants to go through all the punishment process anyway? However, the balanced system is being ignored and leaving behind a limitation on whether or not a dogs life is worth saving.

It further strengthens and highlights a BSL issue because some breeds will not be able to live down to the new and regretable standard thats being produced.

There are many ways of training that should be explored. I will always agree on this principle however, ignorance through choice is outrageous.

[Erny]

To be fair, I would imagine there may also be some balanced or traditional trainers who advise PTS when they can't fix the issue themselves? I haven't heard of it happening, but I've met some fairly crappy and unskilled traditional trainers in my life too, so I can imagine it must sometimes occur.

Speaking for myself, Staranais, there is no way I would prescribe "PTS" without another opinion from a higher valued professional trainer/behaviourist being given. There is only one dog I can think of that I've dealt with where I admit the thought of "PTS" was higher on my 'list' than it ever was before. This dog was unpredictable and its aggression to humans was unprovoked and completely inappropriate. The reason "PTS" came to mind was because the owner was not in a position to put the work into the dog and due to lack of time, wanted to rehome it. The lifestyle and living conditions weren't really congenial to the dog's rehabilitation and the owner could not afford to alter that (or perhaps didn't want to). In that instance I did tell the owner that if he couldn't/wouldn't commit to working with the dog towards rehabilitation (including a blood work-up to rule out possible medical influences,) I could not condone re-homing (the latter is what he wanted me to 'sign off on') and that, of course, only left one option. I gave the owner another contact to reach for a second opinion (and in fact I strongly encouraged him to obtain that second opinion ...... I don't know if he did).

I felt gutted on the drive back home - it was the first time that I had left a dog with the feeling of no-hope in my stomach, but I re-worked the meeting with the owner and his dog in my mind and I don't think there is any one thing that I would've (or could've) changed. The owner effectively left me with nothing to work with.

I don't know what the dog's outcome was and to be honest I'm not sure that I would want to know.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Erny