Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[Cosmolo]

Regardless of qualification- if a trainer feels they are not experienced enough with working breeds, or their insurance does not cover some bull breeds etc- wouldn't you prefer that these people sent potential clients away to someone with more expertise in these areas? Jeanne this definitely does happen in Victoria- i don't know about NSW.

W can't have it both ways- everyone wants the very best and most experienced trainers- fair enough. But how do you propose trainers get experience if its not first through dealing with easier cases and problems and easier dogs? Some trainers will never have the ability OR inclination to deal with certain dogs- that is their choice. Its like a tradesmen choosing the easier job to complete when they have a choice.

My ONLY issue is when these places do not refer on and leave owners thinking that certain breeds or dogs with certain drives cannot be trained.

[Prydenjoy]

I agree Cosmolo, I would expect that someone, regardless of qualification, would refer on if needs be. Making generalised blanket statements which are most likely not even true (I'll believe it if BB can show me a long list of Delta trainers that wont take a dog because it belongs to a particular group of dogs) is all I have an issue with. I've known some amazing Delta trainers, and I'm sorry to hear that they are not all as wonderful as the ones I've dealt with, but you can't put them all into one box. I've heard some pretty dumb things come out of some NDTF trainers mouths, that isn't to say that they are all incompetent. I've no doubt that there are good ones out there, but lets not lump them all together and give them all a bad rap, eh? It works both ways.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with you Jeanne- a qualification doesn't instantly make a trainer great- nor does it instantly make a trainer incompetent!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I agree Cosmolo, I would expect that someone, regardless of qualification, would refer on if needs be. Making generalised blanket statements which are most likely not even true (I'll believe it if BB can show me a long list of Delta trainers that wont take a dog because it belongs to a particular group of dogs) is all I have an issue with. I've known some amazing Delta trainers, and I'm sorry to hear that they are not all as wonderful as the ones I've dealt with, but you can't put them all into one box. I've heard some pretty dumb things come out of some NDTF trainers mouths, that isn't to say that they are all incompetent. I've no doubt that there are good ones out there, but lets not lump them all together and give them all a bad rap, eh? It works both ways.

but your constant denial of bad things happening with Delta training/trainers makes it frustrating for us who have had bad experiences and also makes me think that there is no point even trying to discuss the issues.

there are awful detal trainers just like there are awful other trainers.....my experience was the awful delta and the good others this is fact, not a porky

[Prydenjoy]

JB I think you missed the bit where I said I'm sorry to hear that they are not all as wonderful as the ones I've dealt with - Nobody is denying that there aren't any bad Delta trainers, just that they aren't all that bad. If you had a bad experience with a doctor would you find out what med school they went to and tell everyone you meet not to go to any doctors that graduated there because they are all bad? I hardly think so. If we were all the same there wouldn't be any bad trainers, nor any brilliant trainers, we'd all be somewhere in the middle. I'm sure you'll find bad trainers and brilliant trainers from all kinds of training background.

[Black Bronson]

JB I think you missed the bit where I said I'm sorry to hear that they are not all as wonderful as the ones I've dealt with - Nobody is denying that there aren't any bad Delta trainers, just that they aren't all that bad. If you had a bad experience with a doctor would you find out what med school they went to and tell everyone you meet not to go to any doctors that graduated there because they are all bad? I hardly think so. If we were all the same there wouldn't be any bad trainers, nor any brilliant trainers, we'd all be somewhere in the middle. I'm sure you'll find bad trainers and brilliant trainers from all kinds of training background.

Yes Jeanne possibly. There are doctors who only do the old gall bladder invasive procedure never being taught the keyhole method............same thing with trainers taught only one method???.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

JB I think you missed the bit where I said I'm sorry to hear that they are not all as wonderful as the ones I've dealt with - Nobody is denying that there aren't any bad Delta trainers, just that they aren't all that bad. If you had a bad experience with a doctor would you find out what med school they went to and tell everyone you meet not to go to any doctors that graduated there because they are all bad? I hardly think so. If we were all the same there wouldn't be any bad trainers, nor any brilliant trainers, we'd all be somewhere in the middle. I'm sure you'll find bad trainers and brilliant trainers from all kinds of training background.

i did not miss anything...

[Prydenjoy]

but your constant denial of bad things happening with Delta training/trainers makes it frustrating for us who have had bad experiences and also makes me think that there is no point even trying to discuss the issues.

Well then you are right, there is no point even trying to discuss the issues. Who is in denial? Certainly not me, I never denied that anyone had issues with certain trainer. If you didn't miss the bit where I acknowledged that people had had issues with certain trainers then what on earth are you on about??

Black Bronsen, that is also where further knowledge comes is. Regardless of qualification I'd expect keen dog trainers to be attending seminars and reading books and gaining practical experience to further their knowledge. If the only thing someone has ever done with a dog is complete one course then I'm sorry, I don't want them anywhere near my dog, I don't care what course they did. I agree with the methods Delta use, I just don't agree with the application some have claimed the trainers to be using. The experiences I've had with Delta trainers have all been great, so some of them must be coming away from the course with some great things. Having studied at uni I can speak to others who have passed particular units, some demonstate an incredible knowledge of the subject, others only just know what they need to pass the unit. Perhaps this is the difference between a good (qualified) trainer, and a not so good one?

[angelsun]

As mentioned...there are good trainers and bad trainers regardless of the methods used, however I think what is the big problem is the promotion of Delta as THE ONLY WAY to train your dog because it's "not cruel" as is implied about the other methods or the use of correction collars.

There will always be those that have plenty of papers to show they are qualified, and yet in the real world they are not. The problem again, is simply that the promotion of the Delta trainers implies that they are superior simply because they have a 'certification four diploma' compared to others out there. It's not so much the method (although I do not agree with a lot of the practices in Delta, I will state again that there are aspects of the training which are good and do work with a lot of dogs) but the people that are promoting the organization, and I add that it is not ALL people of course, but as we know, it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the barrel.

The situation I'm seeing is that more and more are coming out and telling their stories about bad experiences with Delta trainers.....yes I'm sure there are many positive experiences out there as well.

[Erny]

As mentioned...there are good trainers and bad trainers regardless of the methods used, however I think what is the big problem is the promotion of Delta as THE ONLY WAY to train your dog because it's "not cruel" as is implied about the other methods or the use of correction collars.

I agree with you there, Angelsun. I see that quite frequently.

I think the difference between the foundation courses (NDTF and Delta) is that NDTF "embraces" (read : takes into account; recognises benefits and non-benefits) whereas Delta "rejects" (read : would prefer not to discuss; prohibits). Isn't Delta's Cert IV an accredited "Companion Animal" Course rather than an accredited "Dog Training" Course?

Edited April 14, 2010 by Erny

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

As mentioned...there are good trainers and bad trainers regardless of the methods used, however I think what is the big problem is the promotion of Delta as THE ONLY WAY to train your dog because it's "not cruel" as is implied about the other methods or the use of correction collars.

I agree with you there, Angelsun. I see that quite frequently.

I think the difference between the foundation courses (NDTF and Delta) is that NDTF "embraces" (read : takes into account; recognises benefits and non-benefits) whereas Delta "rejects" (read : would prefer not to discuss; prohibits). Isn't Delta's Cert IV an accredited "Companion Animal" Course rather than an accredited "Dog Training" Course?

yep Erny and Angelsun that is what i believe too.

[nicole75]

I'm a bit concerned now...I am taking my 12 week old puppy to preschool tonight at the vet clinic where they use the Delta methods.

[Cosmolo]

Don't be concerned Nicole- just be aware that there are a range of methods and IF after pre school, you feel your pup may benefit from another approach you can seek it out. Go along and see how you go.

[Nekhbet]

Regardless of qualification I'd expect keen dog trainers to be attending seminars and reading books and gaining practical experience to further their knowledge. If the only thing someone has ever done with a dog is complete one course then I'm sorry, I don't want them anywhere near my dog, I don't care what course they did.

I agree totally. A good trainer should also understand their limitations with a particular dog and then go 'hey call X because they are more experienced then me and I wont be able to give you all the help you need' particularly if you are going to limit the methods you use to train. That is why I liked the NDTF course, you were offered everything and then you used what you found useful and practical. Better to know more then just one linear way of thinking. I believe highly in the value of positive reinforcement BUT not as a total system of training for every dog and write off the ones that dont comply. Hell I even use a clicker sometimes (lets not spread that around shall we )

I have read the course book for the Delta course and it had me puzzled (actually, in stiches but anyway). It seemed very rewritten with a bit of bias. The trainers and members I came into contact with vehemently pronounced the evils of check chains etc. Most had never used one before. I attended the Delta Therapy Dog training day and the lady there was on about how horrible they were - again never used one and was not a dog trainer in the slightest. I consider that hypocritical. I give things a go before I pronounce them evil or a failure (well most things, common sense dictates things like beating dogs is just not on) And I also will never make a person feel bad for using something that works ... I have noticed berations and guilt trips becoming a common thing from some positive trainers and I find that abhorrent.

[poodlefan]

The Delta Society have done some bloody wonderful things in the dogs as therapy and child safety areas. I think the problems began when they started trying to become all things to all people. "Humane dog training" is a commendable goal. It's how you get there that tends to be the problem IMO.

They appear to dominate the agenda of the Australian APDT and I resigned my membership of that organisation when it banned all discussion/use of e-collars. I've never owned one or used one but I refuse to be a part of an organisation that decrees that a tool that has been successfully and humanely used for a variety of purposes shall be verbotten from the tools its trainers may use.

I know a few Delta certified trainers. I'm sure most folk heavily into dog sports or training do. Their strengths and weaknesses are varied but few seem well set up to deal with hard headed dogs with ingrained undesireable behaviours. Seems to me they if they put as much effort into tackling some behaviours head on as devising methods to manage them, there'd be more happy dog owners out there.

Most people can train owners of food motivated, people focussed dogs to teach their dogs the things required of them. Where the challenge is is thinking outside the box to deal with the unusual or challenging cases. Training methods that tie trainers hands behind their backs by decreeing that certain tools or methods are verbotten aren't setting them up to help more challenging dogs IMO.

Haltis and clickers are not the be all and end all of dog training.

Edited April 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

The Delta Society have done some bloody wonderful things in the dogs as therapy and child safety areas. I think the problems began when they started trying to become all things to all people. "Humane dog training" is a commendable goal. It's how you get there that tends to be the problem IMO.

They appear to dominate the agenda of the Australian APDT and I resigned my membership of that organisation when it banned all discussion/use of e-collars. I've never owned one or used one but I refuse to be a part of an organisation that decrees that a tool that has been successfully and humanely used for a variety of purposes shall be verbotten from the tools its trainers may use.

I know a few Delta certified trainers. I'm sure most folk heavily into dog sports or training do. Their strengths and weaknesses are varied but few seem well set up to deal with hard headed dogs with ingrained undesireable behaviours. Seems to me they if they put as much effort into tackling some behaviours head on as devising methods to manage them, there'd be more happy dog owners out there.

Most people can train owners of food motivated, people focussed dogs to teach their dogs the things required of them. Where the challenge is is thinking outside the box to deal with the unusual or challenging cases. Training methods that tie trainers hands behind their backs by decreeing that certain tools or methods are verbotten aren't setting them up to help more challenging dogs IMO.

Haltis and clickers are not the be all and end all of dog training.

[Prydenjoy]

I'm a bit concerned now...I am taking my 12 week old puppy to preschool tonight at the vet clinic where they use the Delta methods.

Don't be concerned, chances are you'll be with a very capable trainer and you'll learn heaps. There may be a couple of not so good ones out there, but there are also many wonderful Delta trainers, and at the end of the day, you're not going to "ruin" your dog by using their methods, even if you do find yourself with a not so good trainer. Their methods are kind and gentle and will help build a better relationship with your dog

[poodlefan]

I'm a bit concerned now...I am taking my 12 week old puppy to preschool tonight at the vet clinic where they use the Delta methods.

Don't be concerned, chances are you'll be with a very capable trainer and you'll learn heaps. There may be a couple of not so good ones out there, but there are also many wonderful Delta trainers, and at the end of the day, you're not going to "ruin" your dog by using their methods, even if you do find yourself with a not so good trainer. Their methods are kind and gentle and will help build a better relationship with your dog

I'd rather take my pup to a Delta puppy preschool than some place where the instructor wanted me to alpha roll it for any "dominance" displayed.

Just don't panic if your pup barks madly in excitement, jumps all over the other pups and squashes them. It may not necessarily be "aggressive".

[animalia]

I personally think it's up to you as an individual. I have met very capable positive trainers and also a lot of trainers who use a variety of methods including both aversive and positive. I can also say that I have met the polar opposite, trainers from both sides that will never be good trainers. The positive thing with the NDTF is they do teach how to train a dog only using positive methods and they also teach a variety of other methods, they leave it up to you as an individual to decide for yourself what method/s you want to use. They will teach you how to correct a dog with a correction chain but make it clear that they have no issue with you as a trainer if you decide never to use them once you are out in the field, they want their students to be open minded, "knowledge is power". So i figure why not go for the course that will teach you all the methods rather than one and you can choose what techniques to use.

At the end of the day it's all about results, if a trainer can get the dog to display the desired behaviour that is required using humane methods whether all positive or using a variety of tools AND the owner is comfortable to keep up with what the trainer has advised, then I feel that is a good trainer.

I might add that Vikki Austin I'm pretty sure is mainly positive which is proof that there are great positive trainers and then you have Boyd Hooper or Glenn Cooke who are happy to use any method as long as it's humane to the dog and they always achieve the desired behaviour from the dog.

Is there anyway we could maybe list what makes a great trainer and leave out the issue of all positive versus "balanced" training?

it would be interesting what the results would be and I think it would be great if people who aren't trainers get involved too and ask yourself what qualities you would look for in a trainer, so we get the professional side and consumer side as well.

I might start another thread so i don't change the subject!

Edited April 14, 2010 by animalia

[Kelpie-i]

The Delta Society have done some bloody wonderful things in the dogs as therapy and child safety areas. I think the problems began when they started trying to become all things to all people. "Humane dog training" is a commendable goal. It's how you get there that tends to be the problem IMO.

They appear to dominate the agenda of the Australian APDT and I resigned my membership of that organisation when it banned all discussion/use of e-collars. I've never owned one or used one but I refuse to be a part of an organisation that decrees that a tool that has been successfully and humanely used for a variety of purposes shall be verbotten from the tools its trainers may use.

I know a few Delta certified trainers. I'm sure most folk heavily into dog sports or training do. Their strengths and weaknesses are varied but few seem well set up to deal with hard headed dogs with ingrained undesireable behaviours. Seems to me they if they put as much effort into tackling some behaviours head on as devising methods to manage them, there'd be more happy dog owners out there.

Most people can train owners of food motivated, people focussed dogs to teach their dogs the things required of them. Where the challenge is is thinking outside the box to deal with the unusual or challenging cases. Training methods that tie trainers hands behind their backs by decreeing that certain tools or methods are verbotten aren't setting them up to help more challenging dogs IMO.

Haltis and clickers are not the be all and end all of dog training.

Agree :D...Poodlefan hits the nail on the head and speaks like a true professional. Everything I was thinking, just written much more eloquently than I could ever put it.