Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[Jeff Jones]

Hi Jeff. Good to see you. 'bout time you were visiting Melbourne again, isn't it? ;). Your dog doing your ironing yet?

:D I should be in Melbourne......in March 2011 for a week attending seminars and training days(work related) I must admit I have been very slack with training recently. I do have a new resident four legged friend for a few weeks until he gets assigned to a handler, I shall complete a 10 minute training session sometime in the next few days so he can complete several tasks such as: the washing / ironing - cooking - cleaning - car servicing..... are you still struggling with training your dog to complete the ironing?

Edited April 11, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Jeff. Good to see you. 'bout time you were visiting Melbourne again, isn't it? . Your dog doing your ironing yet?

I should be in Melbourne......in March 2011 for a week attending seminars and training days(work related) I must admit I have been very slack with training recently. I do have a new resident four legged friend for a few weeks until he gets assigned to a handler, I shall complete a 10 minute training session sometime in the next few days so he can complete several tasks such as: the washing / ironing - cooking - cleaning - car servicing..... are you still struggling with training your dog to complete the ironing?

;) :D

[Kavik]

[

I don't use the guide, show, place system that is taught at NDTF/ADT to teach obedience but I do know how to use it.

Same here, I also know how to use positive punishment and negative reinforcement. I take exception to being tarnished (and this is not aimed at you Kavik ) with the 'Delta' brush here on dol that means I know how to use food bribes and that's about it....

I don't have a problem with individual trainers, obviously it is about how you use your training and how you have furthered your training. I have learned HEAPS and gone to a lot of seminars after the NDTF course and those have shaped how I like to train. My focus is mainly agility based at the moment, mostly shaping, bit of luring, lots of restrained sends etc, VERY positive.

My issue is more that they are quite blinkered in what they teach. I thought that maybe they give an argument why not to use such and such a method or such and such equipment, but the lady I talked to said they don't even acknowledge that they exist, they don't talk about them at all. I don't see how that can give you enough information to decide whether it is a good method or type of equipment to use.

Eg. I was shown how to use -R and later an ecollar using -R. I am not comfortable using it and don't personally like the idea of stimming the dog before I have given the dog a command or a chance to do the right thing. But this is after I have been shown how it works and the ideology/methodology behind it, so I am informed about its use and have decided it is not for me.

[Erny]

:D I should be in Melbourne......in March 2011 for a week attending seminars and training days(work related) I must admit I have been very slack with training recently. I do have a new resident four legged friend for a few weeks until he gets assigned to a handler, I shall complete a 10 minute training session sometime in the next few days so he can complete several tasks such as: the washing / ironing - cooking - cleaning - car servicing..... are you still struggling with training your dog to complete the ironing?

;) ..... gosh you're behind the times!! We mastered ironing yonks ago. He is presently in training as my personal website designer. Who the heck do you think put his head in as part of the Pro-K9 logo? I thought my face would have looked great there, but nooooooooooooooooooo .......

Apologies for the guys.

And Kelpie-i ..... don't you be laughing.. Hhhmfffrhmph ... having a jab at my dog's ironing skills. Like, he wishes ............ . My dog prefers steamed pressed clothes . He sets it up himself too, although getting the ironing board back into the broom cupboard is something he finds a bit tricky, but only because he forgets to move his water bowl out of the way first.

ETA: Jeff .... could you send that dog down to me after you're done though? An extra double-pair of hands paws wouldn't go astray here .

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

My issue is more that they are quite blinkered in what they teach. I thought that maybe they give an argument why not to use such and such a method or such and such equipment, but the lady I talked to said they don't even acknowledge that they exist, they don't talk about them at all. I don't see how that can give you enough information to decide whether it is a good method or type of equipment to use.

Kavik, that would have to be my biggest criticism as well. If an org wants to follow an agenda then that's the org's business and privilege to do so (although should still stand for comment if/when compared to another). I've heard on more than one occasion from more than one or two or three people that they have been denied the right to even discuss these things. It's not the only organisation that does that either. There is another well known dog org who has told me on an occasion that I must not talk about PPCollars.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Erny

[Black Bronson]

I agree with what Cosmolo said a few posts ago...it's got nothing to do with the trainers that have come out of the Delta course, but more so the Delta organisation itself who seem to dictate to their students which seminars they should and shouldn't be attending, which method they should or shouldn't be using, which books to read and which to not. I am led to believe they did the same when Brenda Aloff came to Australia.

I was told of a Delta trainer who stated she would rather have a dog PTS rather than administer a correction for inappropriate behaviour...seriously. It is this sort of stuff that taints reputations.

Delta sounds more like a Cult nowadays...sorry but this is image they are portraying.Oh and I also use positive, motivational based, luring, shaping and capturing methods (with and without a clicker) 99.99% percent of the time and I'm an NDTF trained trainer.

A couple around the corner from us have a very nice young male Boxer who is 13 months old. I have seen them many times when walking my dogs and the poor Boxer is all over the place dragging the owners around on a silly harness. A couple of weeks ago I ran across them on a walk and they commented how well our GSD behaves on leash and asked who trained him looking for a recommendation and began to tell me this horror story that had happened to them with trainers.

They originally went to an obedience school and were kicked out as their Boxer was disruptive and sent to a vetinary behaviourist. They were recommended to have some tests done on the dog to make sure he had all his wits about him and then he was de-sexed to improve his behavior. He was then recommended by the vetianary behaviourist another trainer for a one on one program. To cut along story short $1450 later, the have an out of control Boxer bouncing on the end of a harness in the belief that their dog has an genetic disorder and should be PTS, all from the Delta system of complete fools in this case.

I offered to help them purely as the thought of PTS of such a lovely dog for no reason other than adolescent uncontrollability was rediculous and met them at the park. The Boxer was perfect and a friendly bouncy boy of untrained energy. With my prong collar and a handful of doggy treats, in 20 minutes I had that Boxer walking beautifully on a loose leash. In one hour, we had the same with both husband and wife handling the dog. I saw them this afternoon, the Boxer is on a martingale and is 90% leash trained in two weeks. WTF , these owners of the Boxer are inexperienced, didn't know any better and were trying to do the right thing and were taken for a ride through total incompetence

[Cosmolo]

Yes i have heard euthanasia recommendations too- from Delta and one non delta trainers- a couple of which happened over the phone, before the trainer had seen the dog..

[Black Bronson]

Yes i have heard euthanasia recommendations too- from Delta and one non delta trainers- a couple of which happened over the phone, before the trainer had seen the dog..

I can imagine that Cosmolo. It seems if they can't provide adequate training to rehabilitate certain behaviours, the recommendation to PTS is common, especially if aggression is concerned

[Staranais]

Yes i have heard euthanasia recommendations too- from Delta and one non delta trainers- a couple of which happened over the phone, before the trainer had seen the dog..

I can imagine that Cosmolo. It seems if they can't provide adequate training to rehabilitate certain behaviours, the recommendation to PTS is common, especially if aggression is concerned

That's disgusting behaviour on the part of the behaviourist.

The idea of anyone advising PTS for a dog for bouncing and lunging and leash pulling simply boggles the mind. Wonder what they'd do with my malinois girl, she practically lives life 6 feet off the ground.

Sounds like the kind of common, simple behavior that's fixed or shaped relatively quickly by any competent trainer - whether they be traditional, positive, or whatever.

[centitout]

And thats exactly why a bit of paper telling me someone is a dog trainer means diddly to me,anyone can go do a course and be one-doesnt mean they are any good at it!

Some very good trainers are out there that dont have certification,and i would rather get recommendations off here than blindly accept a bit of paper.

Not quite sure,but i think to take a dog into hospitals/nursing homes etc thet have to be delta approved these days-can anyone clarify that for me?

[angelsun]

Do you teach Rally using corrections Angelsun? I thought the whole point was so you could verbally or otherwise reward your dog in the ring.

Why would you need to use corrections in a Rally ring other than an NRM?

Some Delta trainers here in a Melbourne club have been doing Rally for years.

Clearly you aren't sure on what Rally is to ask this. Rally IS obedience. Whatever method gets the best out of a dog, is the method that is used. Some dogs respond well to praise, others need food. The difference between the two sports is that in Rally, praise is encouraged whereas traditional obedience it is penalized. Right off the bat, we see dogs that are sour in the obedience ring, perk up when doing Rally.

The definition of corrections should be defined as any action to aid or help change the position or action of the dog with the goal being to complete the task according to the rules. Do you call a tease using food a correction? I do....do you call touching a dogs butt to encourage a sit a correction? I do.....do you call a pat on the leg to encourage a lagging dog to return to correct heel position? I do....so yes...I do correct when doing Rally. I also correct when training for traditional obedience and in both cases, firstly because in the latter this is considered multiple signals, I stress that in the former, TOO much encouragement shows the dogs simply isn't ready for that level and so more training must happen.

Corrections can also be used because too much praise is given, such as a high energy dog that completes a station, gets a praise reward and loses focus then for the next station. A word such as "watch me" or "focus" or "settle" to many, is considered a correction.

I will question the statement that some trainers have been using Rally for years, as I've travelled across this country, and will be doing more this year in prep for Rally to be recognized and spoken to many clubs and trainers, most of which know nothing about Rally, and others that attempted some of the tasks but due to their inability to fully understand the sport, allowed it to slip away during training classes. When I ran into a few that claimed to know Rally, they quickly realized they didn't know it, as I took them through the seminar. They like so many others, beleived that Rally was a sport of 'allowances' and 'good enough' mentality for performance, and there was a clear line between this and traditional obedience as many instructors felt that Rally was in fact second class obedience or even lower than that. Because they felt that Rally allowed praise and reward communication, they also beleived that Rally could not be precise and challenging. Those that experience my seminar will attest, neither of these ideas are correct.

It's important to remember that ANY introduction to ANY discipline, there will be corrections to shape the actions correctly. It's unfortunate that when someone says the word 'correction' they automatically assume that it means a hard pop on a choke chain...Nothing could be further from the truth in many performance sports however due to the latest fad of 'positive reinforcement or nothing' mentality, we see the word correction being used as a dirty word when in fact, it is not.

BTW...I taught Agility the same as I teach Rally....no dog is forced however we do encourage. I've got dogs I trained that are now members of the 'superdogs' team in North America, mulitple levels of agility titles etc. Corrections were used, however it wasn't a pop on a choke chain. Good, well rounded trainers realize that training is not black and white. That not all methods work with all dogs and that they must be able to think on their feet and change to plan B when needed. Unfortunately there has been nothing in the Delta program that shows me that this is the case with them.

I want to add that the clubs that have hosted Rally seminars, without exception, have all commented at some point or another about "the church of Delta" and many are of the opinion that the system, a fad and well promoted thing at the start, has deteriorated to not provide the service that pet owners need, nor are they in fact doing what is best for the dogs to make them social citizens. Sure these dogs can pass a test given by this organization for which they've trained for some weeks to desensitise them to, however those same dogs, put out in the real world are not behaving the same way. This is a real life observation not only from myself, but many others including some that have dogs that have CGC's and gone through the program, and realizing that the dogs have no basic manners and are out of control. If Delta trainers were so hyped to use Rally, why has there been a clear shunning of the seminars and classes here in the North East by both the instructors themselves and dictated to their students that they must not attend?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

And we appreciate that you were given expectations that weren't met, JB. And that's not a good feeling, nor is it right. And no - it's hard for "joe public" to know any different unless they have it explained to them and unfortunately we aren't often privileged to have the opportunity to do so.

I apologise if you might have felt 'hounded' with all our posts. I noted on one or two of mine that submitted only thereafter seeing that someone else had posted same or similar in the meantime.

But thanks for realising the point we were endeavouring to make and explain .

As a course in itself though, I do agree that Delta limits itself in accordance with its belief.

thank you Erny. I am more upset that people could be "turned off" training their dog if they had an experience such as mine. fortunately years ago when i had a GSD i attended an obedience club so after my experience i went to the local obedience club which worked out well for my dog and she responded really well to this training method.

it is hard enough to get people to be responsible dog owners. if they do go down the path of formal training and then get told that there is only one training method (insert favoured method here) and that one doesnt work with their dog ...where does that leave them?

we need to tailor training to how a dog (and its owner) learns because as a society want dogs to be well behaved and owners to feel confident in the training received. if we really do have the best interest of the dog coming first then it would be great of trainers could suggets to dog owners that another method of training may work better for their dog....one can dream!!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

My issue is more that they are quite blinkered in what they teach. I thought that maybe they give an argument why not to use such and such a method or such and such equipment, but the lady I talked to said they don't even acknowledge that they exist, they don't talk about them at all. I don't see how that can give you enough information to decide whether it is a good method or type of equipment to use.

Kavik, that would have to be my biggest criticism as well. If an org wants to follow an agenda then that's the org's business and privilege to do so (although should still stand for comment if/when compared to another). I've heard on more than one occasion from more than one or two or three people that they have been denied the right to even discuss these things. It's not the only organisation that does that either. There is another well known dog org who has told me on an occasion that I must not talk about PPCollars.

thank you Kavik, that is what i was trying to say...it is the absence of critique that i object to.

[Erny]

thank you Erny. I am more upset that people could be "turned off" training their dog if they had an experience such as mine. fortunately years ago when i had a GSD i attended an obedience club so after my experience i went to the local obedience club which worked out well for my dog and she responded really well to this training method.

it is hard enough to get people to be responsible dog owners. if they do go down the path of formal training and then get told that there is only one training method (insert favoured method here) and that one doesnt work with their dog ...where does that leave them?

we need to tailor training to how a dog (and its owner) learns because as a society want dogs to be well behaved and owners to feel confident in the training received. if we really do have the best interest of the dog coming first then it would be great of trainers could suggest to dog owners that another method of training may work better for their dog....one can dream!!

The thing is, JB, there will never be any one school that is "perfect" for every dog that lives and breaths. Nor for every person. No matter how well run the school is. Some schools come close, for sure, but the only way to tailor so that every person and dog is accommodated for precisely to their needs is for every person and their dog to engage in private lessons, rather than classes. In that way, it is possible to tailor exactly to what dog/owner combo need. To run that way in class format? It is not possible to be quite that precise. Again, some come close.

In my lifetime I have experienced disappointments and let-downs. Sure - it would be nice if they didn't occur, but they do. That's life. The world isn't perfect. And I guess I have enough back-bone (doesn't really take that much, tbh) to understand that "one" doesn't equate to "all" and so I will try someone else - and this is regardless of what service (dog-related or not) that I might seek.

I'm glad there are different dog-training schools with different agendas. It's a good thing, for the reasons mentioned in the start of this post.

We try to format our classes so that it covers a wider range of needs for both dogs and their handlers, as far as learning is concerned. It's a bigger task than some might recognise. But we (myself and my instructors) enjoy the challenge and I do believe meet expectations well. There are others like me who do exist and do already, I think, tailor training as well as they can, given the always unknown entity component of classes - ie .... what people are going to be in the class and what their specific individual needs are. And yes, it does help when all methods of training are open to you for use as appropriate.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Erny

[angelsun]

it is hard enough to get people to be responsible dog owners. if they do go down the path of formal training and then get told that there is only one training method (insert favoured method here) and that one doesnt work with their dog ...where does that leave them?

You have hit the nail on the head and this is my concern. We've had too many people left in the dust because they DO have dogs that have issues. Not insurmountable by any stretch, but seemingly more than the local trainers are willing or capable of handling.

As mentioned before, and I'll reiterate again: a GOOD trainer will assess each dogs needs and train accordingly. Yes you can do that in a group situation and not have any others be held back because of it. We as trainers might be able to suggest methods or tasks to practice to clear up some issues, but in the end, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable with what we suggest, they won't practice or reinforce it and therefore the dog is still left out in the cold. By offering different methods of solving a problem, handlers/owners can decide which method they feel comfortable. I always attempt to offer a handler more than one solution to help fix a problem or change a behaviour. At that point, the decision to what is done, lays on the back of the handler.

When only one method is offered, and a handler either does not agree or is not able to comply, the dog loses.

Scenario I was told today of a dog that is in the conformation ring. A breed that is vocal and this particular dog is not aggressive either to humans or dogs and yet when the judge does the exam, it vocalizes with a groan/moan/rumble sound. To some, this would come off as aggresive and in the show ring, can have you removed from competition quickly. When this scenario was presented to a Delta trainer, the answer was simply, "feed the dog". Sure, feeding could be a distraction from what the judge is doing, however is it infact solving the problem or behaviour? Absolutely not..it's a simple 'bandaid' solution and in fact, didn't work.

The thing is, JB, there will never be any one school that is "perfect" for every dog that lives and breaths. Nor for every person. No matter how well run the school is. Some schools come close, for sure, but the only way to tailor so that every person and dog is accommodated for precisely to their needs is for every person and their dog to engage in private lessons, rather than classes. In that way, it is possible to tailor exactly to what dog/owner combo need. To run that way in class format? It is not possible to be quite that precise. Again, some come close.

As I mentioned, it's not hard to customize classes because in the end, it simply offers more options for everyone in the class. The other thing to remember is that not all lessons or training applies to all dogs at that moment, however it should be remembered that in some cases, owners have another dog at home that the exercise might be more appropriate for even though the owner doesn't feel that the dog needs structured classes. That owners might end up with a dog in the future that has some of the other class dogs problems and draw from the classes to solve them. Private lessons are fine to a point, however it does nothing to help a dog get used to other dogs, nor does it give enough distractions to 'proof' a dog correctly. although private lessons can solve some severe issues that are best dealt with quietly and with great focus, all too often, other issues crop up simply because there isn't the distractions of other dogs and people. The privately trained 'problem child' dog, is not properly prepared for a simple walk down the street or venture to a dog park, because they have not learned to respond during distractions of everyday events. I've had my share of private students and although they performed brilliantly in 'class', they were not prepared for the real world simply because they had been sequestered.

Well structured classes with multiple solutions to problems, can and are being done. it is important to remember that trainers are not there to train YOUR dog....we are there to teach YOU how to train your dog.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

<snip>

Well structured classes with multiple solutions to problems, can and are being done. it is important to remember that trainers are not there to train YOUR dog....we are there to teach YOU how to train your dog.

the bold part is exactly what we need to remember. i am sure that a class can be tailored to teach people the different methods of training dogs and ask them to try which one works with their dogs....it is the people we want to teach and the first thing needed when learning is an open mind and that sometimes we need to try different things to get our dogs to learn.

[Aidan]

I'm more concerned that there are Delta accredited trainers who can't make meaningful, if not overly laborious progress using the methods that they teach.

[Staff'n'Toller]

If Delta trainers were so hyped to use Rally, why has there been a clear shunning of the seminars and classes here in the North East by both the instructors themselves and dictated to their students that they must not attend?

I don't live in NSW or QLD and never have, if you'd like to PM me with actual names of trainers or names of clubs I may actually be able to find out some further info.

But using statements like The Delta Main Instructor isn't particularly helpful.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[Black Bronson]

Yes i have heard euthanasia recommendations too- from Delta and one non delta trainers- a couple of which happened over the phone, before the trainer had seen the dog..

I can imagine that Cosmolo. It seems if they can't provide adequate training to rehabilitate certain behaviours, the recommendation to PTS is common, especially if aggression is concerned

That's disgusting behaviour on the part of the behaviourist.

The idea of anyone advising PTS for a dog for bouncing and lunging and leash pulling simply boggles the mind. Wonder what they'd do with my malinois girl, she practically lives life 6 feet off the ground.

Sounds like the kind of common, simple behavior that's fixed or shaped relatively quickly by any competent trainer - whether they be traditional, positive, or whatever.

Many of these Delta style training schools won't take working breeds at all.........the mind does boggle

[Prydenjoy]

Many of these Delta style training schools won't take working breeds at all.........the mind does boggle

You say many, can you prove it, or are you just making things up? Sounds like a porky to me...

I really don't get this whole "lets bash every Delta trainer because I've had a bad experience with one" thing, seems pretty immature to me. It's not hard to comprehend that different people under the same training will have different abilities, you can't judge everyone based on what 3 or 4 have apparently done