Ndtf V Delta Instructors Course

[charlie mouse]

Hi

I am just beginning to look into doing a Dog Behaviour and Dog Training course. I have been assisting in classes at our local dog school for over a year and have just in the last couple of months started taking classes.

The school i instruct at believes in positive / reward based training but dont push it as far as Delta would have it - we do say no ha ha

I am learning loads all the time and love what i am doing but would like to get a formal qualification in the future.

I know a few people who are doing the Delta course and to be honest it has put me off doing it as i dont believe in some of what they teach but wandered if anyone had done the NDTF long distance course.

Thanks

[Jeff Jones]

A fair few dolers have done the NDTF course, if you do a search on the forum a lot of threads come up

Edited April 9, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[Prydenjoy]

Look into the CASI course, I'm about to start that one. It's positive based, but much more in depth than Delta

[haven]

Look into the CASI course, I'm about to start that one. It's positive based, but much more in depth than Delta

It's not a nationally recognised qualification in Australia though, is it?

EFS

Edited April 9, 2010 by haven

[Teebs]

The way i see it is this, Delta teach their way, thats it.

NDTF teach all different ways of training, then tell you to use what works for you

[Staranais]

The way i see it is this, Delta teach their way, thats it.

NDTF teach all different ways of training, then tell you to use what works for you

Kind of like going to bible college, then, compared to doing a degree in comparative religions?

Tee hee!

[Prydenjoy]

Not nationally recognised in Australia, but that's not to say it's not a great way to further your knowledge and build on your interest. I've heard lots of wonderful things about the course, and if I'm going to be putting so much time and energy into something I want it to be something I'm going to enjoy. I know I'm not making Muckypups job of choosing any easier by adding to the list of courses to look into, I thought long and hard before coming to the decision myself, but I'm 99% sure I've made the right choice

Email the co ordinator if you have any questions, he's most helpful.

[haven]

Not nationally recognised in Australia, but that's not to say it's not a great way to further your knowledge and build on your interest.

Sure, I agree, all knowledge is knowledge! I just wanted to clarify because the OP specified they want a formal qualification and they may not understand the difference

[Prydenjoy]

That's fair enough haven, I wanted nationally accredited also but when I found out about this course I figured I can still do what I'm doing without a nationally accreditted course, so I'd rather go with the one that appeals to me more

One question, what kind of jobs can you do with a nationally accredited course that you can't get into some way or another with another course? I know when I was looking up customs jobs etc it said that the NDTF course would help, but you can still get in without it (and if I was the person checking the resumes having another course would look good on there also).

[Kavik]

Not to sound down on Delta, but I was talking to someone at my club who is currently doing it and it is NOTHING like the NDTF one. No comparison, no competition. It's not just that they use positive methods only, they don't teach you how to solve behaviour problems, you are just supposed to send everything to a veterinary behaviourist. It is a course in companion animal services, NOT dog training and behaviour. They don't even try to hide that.

[wayrod]

Not to sound down on Delta, but I was talking to someone at my club who is currently doing it and it is NOTHING like the NDTF one. No comparison, no competition. It's not just that they use positive methods only, they don't teach you how to solve behaviour problems, you are just supposed to send everything to a veterinary behaviourist. It is a course in companion animal services, NOT dog training and behaviour. They don't even try to hide that.

Going off topic but somewhat related: (and certainly not to provoke any dog trainers who have undertaken any dog trainer/instructors course/s)

It is about time that one set of Curriculum and Qualifications and Regulations apply to ALL dog trainer courses being offered in Australia.

Why! Because at the moment in Victoria:

Anyone can open a dog training school, no experience necessary, some people even pay* for a theoretical course with little or no hands on experience throughout the course. *Some don't even have to pay because a course is recognised by the NQF the student may be entitled to Government payments to undertake the course.

The ridiculous senario of undertaking a NQF course like the NDTF course or some modules in other organisations "dog training" courses that have been Nationally Recognised under the National Qualification Framework (Federal Legislation), the course is not recognised by the Department of Primary Industry in Victoria (State Legislation), who is reponsible for dog training establishments in Victoria through the Domestic Animals Act. (There is no Federal legislation that applies to dog training establishments).

Unfortunately NQF do not recognise the DAA, and the DPI, administrators for the DAA do not recognise the NQF, eg. Under the Domestic Animals Act the term "qualified dog trainer" is only applicable for a person that has undertaken a course approved by a recognised organisation approved by the Victorian Minister of Agriculture. (NDTF and a few others do not meet this criteria). There is presently no such terminology recognised under the NQF!

It is about time that one curriculum, qualification and regulation standard is recognised nationally for the dog training establishments within Australia.

[Black Bronson]

Not to sound down on Delta, but I was talking to someone at my club who is currently doing it and it is NOTHING like the NDTF one. No comparison, no competition. It's not just that they use positive methods only, they don't teach you how to solve behaviour problems, you are just supposed to send everything to a veterinary behaviourist. It is a course in companion animal services, NOT dog training and behaviour. They don't even try to hide that.

Going off topic but somewhat related: (and certainly not to provoke any dog trainers who have undertaken any dog trainer/instructors course/s)

It is about time that one set of Curriculum and Qualifications and Regulations apply to ALL dog trainer courses being offered in Australia.

Why! Because at the moment in Victoria:

Anyone can open a dog training school, no experience necessary, some people even pay* for a theoretical course with little or no hands on experience throughout the course. *Some don't even have to pay because a course is recognised by the NQF the student may be entitled to Government payments to undertake the course.

The ridiculous senario of undertaking a NQF course like the NDTF course or some modules in other organisations "dog training" courses that have been Nationally Recognised under the National Qualification Framework (Federal Legislation), the course is not recognised by the Department of Primary Industry in Victoria (State Legislation), who is reponsible for dog training establishments in Victoria through the Domestic Animals Act. (There is no Federal legislation that applies to dog training establishments).

Unfortunately NQF do not recognise the DAA, and the DPI, administrators for the DAA do not recognise the NQF, eg. Under the Domestic Animals Act the term "qualified dog trainer" is only applicable for a person that has undertaken a course approved by a recognised organisation approved by the Victorian Minister of Agriculture. (NDTF and a few others do not meet this criteria). There is presently no such terminology recognised under the NQF!

It is about time that one curriculum, qualification and regulation standard is recognised nationally for the dog training establishments within Australia.

It's wrong but no different to a lot of unregulated trades. Many people open and work in trade businesses who have no trade qualifications either. It is time all these are regulated including dog trainers and behaviourists. I know some of the franchise training businesses, the new franchise owner gets a two day course and is then regarded as an expert dog trainer. People spend money with these establishments, get no where with their dog because the trainer has virtually no experience which is a blatant rip off really

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

given my experience with a delta dog trainer at a training course for the dog i would stay away from this course as i found the trainer did not seem to know what to do with a dog that wasnt food motivated...

[Prydenjoy]

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to consumer awareness, the public need to know that they may not be getting what they are paying for. Perhaps another 7:30 report story?

I don't agree that we should all be bound to complete one qualification, there does need to be some variety of treatment methods. Everyone seems to agree that each and every dog is different, providing this variety gives dog owners some choice of what to choose from.

[Kavik]

NDTF teaches about ALL training methods and then leaves it up to you to decide which one suits best Delta only teaches one way and does not even tell you about anything else. Actually from what I heard does not even teach that one way all that well.

[Erny]

I 'heard' that some Delta members were to attend the NDTF National Conference (ie Stephen Lindsay Seminar) just gone but they were 'discouraged' to do so by their own organisation. I don't know the truth of this so my disclaimer is the fact that this is 3rd hand knowledge and that I cannot assert how much fact is in it (perhaps Delta could confirm/deny?), but if it is true then I think that's a real concern and sad, as IMO learning/education should not be limited and those people missed out on gaining really good additional insight to dog behaviour from a Master.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Erny

[charlie mouse]

Thanks everyone for your comments (i know this topic has been covered before) I am more interested in doing the NDFT course now i think as i want to understand all four quadrants not just the positive ones and would like to have a recognised qualification. I am a bit concerned about spending so much time in Melbourne or Sydney as I live in Adelaide but will have to cross that bridge when i come to it.

Thanks again

[pipsqueak]

I 'heard' that some Delta members were to attend the NDTF National Conference (ie Stephen Lindsay Seminar) just gone but they were 'discouraged' to do so by their own organisation. I don't know the truth of this so my disclaimer is the fact that this is 3rd hand knowledge and that I cannot assert how much fact is in it (perhaps Delta could confirm/deny?), but if it is true then I think that's a real concern and sad, as IMO learning/education should not be limited and those people missed out on gaining really good additional insight to dog behaviour from a Master.

Apparently someone asked Delta to post details of the conference on the Delta "forum" (which is for instructors and students) and they apparently refused... though this information is 2nd hand to me - unclear as to the reason. However, there were several people in attendance on the second or third day wearing bright yellow Delta t-shirts.

[melzawelza]

^^^ yes, I also heard this but firsthand from the person who requested it, and they were refused

[Staff'n'Toller]

I 'heard' that some Delta members were to attend the NDTF National Conference (ie Stephen Lindsay Seminar) just gone but they were 'discouraged' to do so by their own organisation. I don't know the truth of this so my disclaimer is the fact that this is 3rd hand knowledge and that I cannot assert how much fact is in it (perhaps Delta could confirm/deny?), but if it is true then I think that's a real concern and sad, as IMO learning/education should not be limited and those people missed out on gaining really good additional insight to dog behaviour from a Master.

Apparently someone asked Delta to post details of the conference on the Delta "forum" (which is for instructors and students) and they apparently refused... though this information is 2nd hand to me - unclear as to the reason. However, there were several people in attendance on the second or third day wearing bright yellow Delta t-shirts.

I think that would be because Delta has nothing to do with NDTF and vice versa. I doubt it would have anything to do with Lindsay's methods or reputation. Whilst they both run courses within the NQF, they are still private providers, private businesses don't advertise for other private businesses, just not the way the world works.

Some posters are misinformed about what is actually taught i.e. methods and the referral to Veterinary Behaviourists but I am wholeheartedly sick of posting the same replies every time. There are certainly some trainers who go through the Cert IV and perhaps don't have the practical expertise to back themselves up, but that is not entirely Delta's fault. NDTF will find they have the same issues in coming years, now that their course is via distance. Delta has been running the course since 1996 and NDTF are very new to the correspondence scene. It's a constant source of worry for the course co-ordinators and as Black Bronson said, anyone can set up a business.

Dog handling is actually assessed in the Cert IV and people who show a total ineptitude for it are asked to defer their course whilst they gain more practical experience and decide whether it is really what they want to do.

There are plenty of fantastic Cert IV trainers out there and I find it quite offensive that the same people here love to 'jump on the bandwagon' every single time one of these threads come up. I spent 4 years at ADT training my own dog to advanced obedience and protection, I then spent another 6 years gaining experience in class taking and working 200+ B & T dogs and undertaking a course not unlike NDTF's (it's just not nationally recognised). Then I went to study the course provided by Delta as I felt that in the future people would be looking for trainers with a real piece of paper.

I train using positive motivational methods, it's a CHOICE I made.

I know how to fade food rewards, and my clients get plenty of information and encouragment about how to do it, if they choose not to follow the program then so be it.

If clients don't want to use food then that's fine, we'll find something else.

Sometimes I do refer to Veterinary Behavourists if I feel that the client will get faster results with one-on-one classes or that setup will work better for them and their dogs. It's all about the client frustration index. I can deal with aggression issues but geez...liability is a bitch these days! If you think you can work with problem dogs that's great, but don't think you won't ever be in court one day with a Veterinary Behaviourist on the stand testifying against you and your methods if it all goes pear shaped down the track. Best of luck.

Mel.