Advice Needed From Fellow Breeders

[Dogawne]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

This is what I would do also. But I have my pups fully examined by a vet prior to it leaving here and the pup also comes with 6 weeks health cover. I always encourage my puppy buyers to continue with the health cover.

However, it has not yet been clarified that pup was free of these things at the time that it left the breeder. In this senario IF the pup had any one of the listed conditions and the new owners were unaware of this then the breeder should be held accountalbe for the health costs.

Also that the buyer should have a timeframe after purchase in which they have a choice to follow up with a vet for an independant health check ( eg 2 days) etc, that way it is checked over, skin, fleas etc. Those things should be spotted at a vet check. I can imagine the entropian might not be picked up straight away?? in all cases, and therefore the breeder can offer to pay for those things, but toys thats cheeky

[poodlemum]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

The entropian is a hereditary? condition, the dermatitis, and the mites are environmental? The toys should not even be on the bill. Make sure the bill os on the vets own letterhead paper, and then get it all itemised. Mites, and fleas well any dog can get that in its enviroment, the dermatitis, well maybe that is environmental and even dietary too.

Are we talking all these conditions picked up in the first week of the pup being taken home? If this all happened within the first week ( eg buyers first vet check and they can say the pup came with these things reasonably then maybe they can argue costs of mites etc, but not if after all this, and it sounds like a 1st check was not done by the buyer.

As far as I am aware, there is some argument as to whether entropian is heridary or environmental. I agree with the offer to refund the price of the puppy. Who knows what will happen further along the line, where you will get some vets saying the problem is congenital or genetic & others saying it is environmental.

[gareth]

As far as I am aware, there is some argument as to whether entropian is heridary or environmental. I agree with the offer to refund the price of the puppy. Who knows what will happen further along the line, where you will get some vets saying the problem is congenital or genetic & others saying it is environmental.

I would be very interested in reading the arguments that consider entropian may be environmental.

[KitKat]

So the dog is 11months old before it is diagnosed with the entropian? Must admit...if it was me i'd not even have expected you to pay anything - i'd have informed you that it was happening just in case others in the litter had the same thing but not for paying vet bills! If the pup was under 6 months maybe.

[Staranais]

We just had our lectures in small animal opthamology, the specialist vet that lectured us thinks entropian in puppies usually has a very strong genetic basis. By genetic, I mean there are breed predispositions to entropian, lines within breeds that are especially predisposed, and a component which is just luck of the genetic draw in any one particular animal.

It can also be entirely environmental though, caused by corneal disease or conjunctivitis (and in foals, by dehydration).

[whippets]

If I was the breeder and they really loved and wanted to keep the dog.

1/ I would offer them a full refund on purchase price, let them keep the dog and draw up a contract relieving the breeder emancipation from any further compensation claim in regards to the dog.

2/ Or full refund and return the dog

3/ Or return the dog and have a pup from next litter.

I'd leave the choice to the owner. All 3 options are fair. I prefer the 1st option. I have never heard of entropian being environmental. It's hereditary IMO.

[gareth]

It can also be entirely environmental though, caused by corneal disease or conjunctivitis (and in foals, by dehydration).

OK, would that really be environmental or a secondary complication of another condition?

[centitout]

It can also be entirely environmental though, caused by corneal disease or conjunctivitis (and in foals, by dehydration).

OK, would that really be environmental or a secondary complication of another condition?

It can develop as a result of untreated eye infections/conjunctivitis as an adult.If apparent as a pup(and you can normally tell by 8 weeks,or at least ones that may be borderline) then yes,it is genetic .As far as i know,it is a dominant gene and only requires one parent with it to pass it on ?

[Erny]

I wouldn't send my current pup back if she developed a condition that meant she couldn't work, I'm way too attached. But I'd be peeved if the condition was one known to have genetic component, and the breeder refused all responsibility. If I wanted to play pot luck with health and temperament, I would have gotten a pound puppy.

I agree with this. Whilst I respect that some breeders do have the "send puppy back for a full refund" policy sometimes I don't know if they empathise with the sentimentality that often by then has already been invested by the owner/s. That "investment" is often 'priceless' although can come with the burden of the heartache (and expense) of having a dog that requires medical intervention.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

It can also be entirely environmental though, caused by corneal disease or conjunctivitis (and in foals, by dehydration).

OK, would that really be environmental or a secondary complication of another condition?

It can develop as a result of untreated eye infections/conjunctivitis as an adult.If apparent as a pup(and you can normally tell by 8 weeks,or at least ones that may be borderline) then yes,it is genetic .As far as i know,it is a dominant gene and only requires one parent with it to pass it on ?

Gareth, I guess it depends whether the first condition was itself caused by primarily genetic or environmental factors. At some point it sort of becomes splitting hairs I think, since there's almost no condition that's not influenced somewhat by both genetics and the environment.

Exact mode of inheritance depends on the breed, I think, Centitout. But if it were a simple dominant gene causing entropian, then you'd generally only get pups with entropian from parents that had entropian. That's not what we typically see - it's perfectly possible to get pups, or a pup, with entropian from parents that appear clinically normal.

[whippets]

I had an entropian newf pup from 2 normal CH parents. It was noticeable at about 4 mths of age.

[Keltoi]

After receiving a full veterinary report of the eye condition, I would offer to refund the price of the puppy, whether they return the dog or not. The rest is up to them. Eye surgery can be very expensive and it is up to the owner to decide if they wish to spend that amount of money or return the dog to you.

I don't believe any breeder should be responsible for any vetreinary expenses beyond the original price of the puppy.

Really? So if a breeder sells a puppy with entropian on all four lids, cherry eye, skin allergies, etc the puppy owner should wear those costs??? Sorry, but that is not fair. If someone forks out for a pedigree puppy, they should get something healthy!!

If they dont want to send the pup back,and get a full refund,then yes,that is fair.If they wish to keep the pup,why should the breeder then have to keep paying for vet bills past the purchase price when they do have the option to send it back and get a refund.

Dogs can get sick,develop problems same as a human can,despite being from healthy parents and i think to refund/replace or in this case pay for op,is fair.

I know someone who has spent thousands on their dog who developed allergies to pretty much everything environmental-he requires weekly injections,sometimes twice a week of the specialist allergy injection,they have chosen to pay for it rather than send the dog back -their choice,they have to wear the cost.

Flame suit firmly in place.

The entropian is a hereditary? condition, the dermatitis, and the mites are environmental? The toys should not even be on the bill. Make sure the bill os on the vets own letterhead paper, and then get it all itemised. Mites, and fleas well any dog can get that in its enviroment, the dermatitis, well maybe that is environmental and even dietary too.

Are we talking all these conditions picked up in the first week of the pup being taken home? If this all happened within the first week ( eg buyers first vet check and they can say the pup came with these things reasonably then maybe they can argue costs of mites etc, but not if after all this, and it sounds like a 1st check was not done by the buyer.

Hi,No the dog was bought from us at 8weeks old passed vet health checks before leaveing us. His problems started around 8months old with the mites/dermatitis then with in a week or so his eye he is now 11mths old and just had the surgery for entropion. Thanks

[whippets]

I wonder if the dermatitis has thickened the skin around the eye area thus making the lids appear rolled inwards to cause the entropian.

The newf we had just had the entropian with no skin issues. It was hereditary.

[Steve]

If the dog has entropian then I say the breeder should put their hand up for it and even though demodex and dermatitis are immune issues - could be bought on by environmental isses, including stress or vaccination or heartworm meds etc the reality is that some dogs are genetically predisposed to being vulnerable to these kind of problems.

I cant see the point in refunding only if they send the dog back to you and honestly any breeder who makes this offer would be pretty confident that the owner isnt going to do that so it lets them off the hook.It feels pretty unethical to me.

The biggest issue here and the lesson to be learned is that these sort of things need to be thought about and dealt with BEFORE something goes wrong.

Every person who buys a pup needs to know what they should expect before the dog goes home and every breeder should have what they will do in writing or it starts to get messy and it makes bad enemies and doesnt do much to help the dog.

There are some options.

One is to place a 6 week petplan free insurance policy on the pup when it goes home and encourage the owner to take insurance out. Most things that can go wrong for a dog are going to cost more than $180 insurance premium.

Two you can charge more for the dog and include a 6 months or 12 months insurance policy when the pup goes home.

But you need to write up a guarantee and conditions of sale so everyone knows what they are getting and what happens if something turns up.

What happens if 10 puppies in a litter turn up with entropian and their vets do vet work for $3000 each ? How long is reasonable for you for your buyers to come back and expect you are going to cover things liek this etc?

Edited April 10, 2010 by Steve

[gareth]

Gareth, I guess it depends whether the first condition was itself caused by primarily genetic or environmental factors. At some point it sort of becomes splitting hairs I think, since there's almost no condition that's not influenced somewhat by both genetics and the environment.

Entropian may be influenced ie. worsened by environmental factors if not treated, but I can't see how it could be primarily caused by environmental factors. Anyway, beside the point. I thought it was an interesting comment and wanted to know more.

[aussielover]

The pup was 11 months old when first diagnosed? That seems older than expected. I agree with Whippets and wonder whether the entropian is a secondary complication to the dermatitis. I also agree with everyone else who said that it is reasonable to offer a refund- even if they want to keep the pup. It is quite rude of them to expect you to pay for the food and toys as well!

It seems times have changed- I wouldn't contact my breeder and ask them to pay for a surgery 10 months after buying the dog. It does annoy me that some people are not willing to take responsibility for their own animal- do they expect it never to get sick? Obviously if it was a known inherited condition within a breed, then it might be reasonable to get a refund for the animal but I would never expect the breeder to pay for the whole cost of surgery (unless it was something that could have been prevented through testing of the parents).

I have another question for breeders relating to this- if a dog develops hip or elbow dysplasia as a young animal (say <2 years)- would you pay for the costs of surgery and medications assosiciated with this?

[Jed]

If I'd bred the pup, I'd want to talk to the treating vet. If I was ok with what he said, I would refund the purchase price, and they could keep the pup.

Personally, I would call entropian hereditary.

There is an enormous body of veterinary disagreement about demodex and that changes every few years depending on who is doing the research.

I think it is probably due to a compromised immune system, which may be hereditary, but the demodex becomes apparent when there is stress - which may be health, diet or hormonal related. On the other hand, all dogs apparently carry the mite, and presumably the majority go through life with no symptoms. 2 of my dogs had demodex , both under enormous stress at the time. Neither produced pups with it, nor was it bred on in the lines. And there was no history of it in their lines. Two dogs is not a study but I can only go with my own experience

I have also seen it in a dog which was fine, taken by new owners, few a low quality dry diet and developed demodex within a short period.

11 months is when there are hormonal changes and dogs often develop demodex during this period. It should not be difficult to cure - for a normal case, but I would want to know whether it was generalised or not. For my own information

Contracts setting out the responsibility of both buyer and seller are important, and they should be understood before being signed.

And it is important for buyers to be aware that buying any living thing does entail some risk.

No one, no matter how many tests and checks they have done, can ever ensure that the pups they produce are free from any and all defects.

Some buyers do not understand that. And some problems are due to owner inexperience, or mismanagement

[Steve]

If I'd bred the pup, I'd want to talk to the treating vet. If I was OK with what he said, I would refund the purchase price, and they could keep the pup.

Personally, I would call entropian hereditary.

There is an enormous body of veterinary disagreement about demodex and that changes every few years depending on who is doing the research.

I think it is probably due to a compromised immune system, which may be hereditary, but the demodex becomes apparent when there is stress - which may be health, diet or hormonal related. On the other hand, all dogs apparently carry the mite, and presumably the majority go through life with no symptoms. 2 of my dogs had demodex , both under enormous stress at the time. Neither produced pups with it, nor was it bred on in the lines. And there was no history of it in their lines. Two dogs is not a study but I can only go with my own experience

I have also seen it in a dog which was fine, taken by new owners, few a low quality dry diet and developed demodex within a short period.

11 months is when there are hormonal changes and dogs often develop demodex during this period. It should not be difficult to cure - for a normal case, but I would want to know whether it was generalised or not. For my own information

Contracts setting out the responsibility of both buyer and seller are important, and they should be understood before being signed.

And it is important for buyers to be aware that buying any living thing does entail some risk.

No one, no matter how many tests and checks they have done, can ever ensure that the pups they produce are free from any and all defects.

Some buyers do not understand that. And some problems are due to owner inexperience, or mismanagement

Some breeders don't know it either and when they get hit with something like this are not sure what to do or say.It needs to be thought out and be clear to both breeder and buyer what will happen and what they can expect from each other because Jed is right no matter what you do [because its a living animal] now and then things go wrong.

If you told them you would cover half of the initial surgery and they agreed to that - then that is your agreement and you pay half of the initial surgery.

I'm hoping that when you did that you have it in writing at least via email or some kind of acknowledgement from them that this is what they are agreeing to

because if you didn't then if it goes further it gets messy and stressful.Whether we agree that this was the right thing to do or not - that's what you offered and they agreed.

I take an average of one a day enquiries about how people can complain about breeders. On both sides of the fence Ive seen some stuff which screams out for what breeders can do to be sure they don't end up in the wrong situation but the main one is.

Always treat the buyer with empathy and let them feel you have genuine concern for them and their dog and how what is going on will impact on your breeding program.

Never agree to anything until you have seen - in writing - the vet report not just the bill.Take the vet report to your own vet and ask for their advice and speak to the treating vet asking specific questions to be sure what the buyer is telling you is what is really happening.For example what were the symptoms when the dog first presented with an eye issue.Was the entropion diagnosed right then or was it diagnosed originally as conjunctivitis,and ulcer, and injury or allergy etc. If it was diagnosed as entropion from day one then that tells you its probably not caused by a secondary influence. I'm assuming you have had both your breeding dogs eyes checked and you have some knowledge of the incidence or lack thereof of entropion in their pedigrees.No one gene controls the development of eyelid conformation. It is a combination of genes that control eyelid size and shape, depth of the eye socket, size and shape of the eyes, head conformation and amount of facial skin. All of these genes work together to determine the relationship of the eyelids to the eye. Therefore if an eyelid conformation defect is there only those dogs without entropion should be bred. Again I'm assuming your dogs are clear and its not an everyday simple recessive so its not something you go looking for carriers with.

In this case your specific questions need to be - was one or both eyes affected by entropion. If it was both then there is a higher chance that its a breeding issue but if it is one it may have been caused by an injury or similar and therefore not a breeding issue. How many pups were in the litter and were any of the others in the same situation? If you had 10 pups and only one had the problem then again it may not be a genetic issue. Did Nana and pop,aunties and uncles, brothers, sisters,cousins etc have any incidence of entropion? If both your dogs are good examples of the breed standard in the head area, again I'm assuming they are because you have used them for breeding, there is less chance a staffy will have genetic issues with their eyes as abnormal skin folds and eye shape are not part of their breed standard.

Apart from the obvious - take this as a learning experience and ensure from now on before the dog goes home everyone knows what will happen if something goes wrong you have to take a very long look at how the answers to these questions will impact on your breeding program and you have to tell other breeders that entropion and demodex has shown up and what the pedigrees are of the dogs which have been the parents so they can use this information to assess their own breeding decisions.

[sandgrubber]

Hard yards for breeders. Most pups are healthy. Most puppy buyers are great. But sometimes you end up with a pup that develops health problems and an owner that seems to want to inflate the costs.

I'd say, try to figure out what the real costs are. Document as well as possible. Cover the real costs of treating a hereditary condition. Go no further. Get things in writing because this is a good way to get unrealistic demands rescinded . . . and because if it ever comes to a court contest, written evidence may be important. Be fair yourself, but take pains to document what you consider fair, and why.