Sick Babies :(

[Kustali]

Hi, i have a litter of 11 Mastiff puppies who are just over 2 weeks old. They started feeding from mum but she developed Mastitis and was very ill so i put all the pups onto Divetelact whilst still feeding off mum a bit (everyones opinion on that is different....)....then due to mum not recovering put them all on the formula only. Mum came good after that. They have been on the bottle for about a week now? They had the runs a little and i was a bit concerned (although others said this was normal?) so tried Peptosyl which did nothing. Also had them on Protexin.

Yesterday one was in the corner crying and crying so i took him into the vet, high temp, although he couldn't sit still (obviously in pain) he was very limp when you picked him up. They looked at a fecal sample and couldn't see anything unusal....they took blood and the protein levels were on the lower side, probably due to the runs and the white cells were on the higher side. They couldn't really give me a sure answer of what it could be, except for a bacterial infection of some sort, so they were all put on Clavulox.

By night time another one was sick the same, i kept up the glucose, Nutrigel and rubbing those bellies, i also took the formula back to newborn strength.

This morning the two sick ones were doing better, one more than the other, but by lunch time a different one had gone downhill, high temperature, limp, whining....some of the others started whining aswell but not as bad as this one. I took him in and his temp was also high and he was in pain, he was givin Tramadol.

I was advised to take them right off the formula and just give a mix of Lectade for 24 hours to try to get the diarrhea out of their little tiummies. When you pat them it sounds like a big water bottle? Even with the runs they are all putting on weight....but over these last two days they are just so sick....

I managed to get a fecal sample from the boy who was really sick yesterday and they have sent that off to do a culture....that takes days though and i am worried about what path to take with them now.

I've just fed them the Lectade mix, they are all resting quietly. Should i give them Nutrigel aswell to keep the vitamins up to them? Is it a good idea to give them only this for that amount of time?

Should i put them back on the Divetelact tomorrow...or try another formula?

I've tried all i can think of....

This is my first litter, what a nightmare!!! But all i want is my little babies to survive this and be healthy....

Edited April 8, 2010 by HANNAH

[BJean]

How did you feed them formula?

Did you bottle feed? If so did you burp them?

L:)

Edited April 8, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Hi, i have a litter of 11 Mastiff puppies who are just over 2 weeks old. They started feeding from mum but she developed Mastitis and was very ill so i put all the pups onto Divetelact whilst still feeding off mum a bit (everyones opinion on that is different....)....then due to mum not recovering put them all on the formula only. Mum came good after that. They have been on the bottle for about a week now? They had the runs a little and i was a bit concerned (although others said this was normal?) so tried Peptosyl which did nothing. Also had them on Protexin.

Yesterday one was in the corner crying and crying so i took him into the vet, high temp, although he couldn't sit still (obviously in pain) he was very limp when you picked him up. They looked at a fecal sample and couldn't see anything unusal....they took blood and the protein levels were on the lower side, probably due to the runs and the white cells were on the higher side. They couldn't really give me a sure answer of what it could be, except for a bacterial infection of some sort, so they were all put on Clavulox.

By night time another one was sick the same, i kept up the glucose, Nutrigel and rubbing those bellies, i also took the formula back to newborn strength.

This morning the two sick ones were doing better, one more than the other, but by lunch time a different one had gone downhill, high temperature, limp, whining....some of the others started whining aswell but not as bad as this one. I took him in and his temp was also high and he was in pain, he was givin Tramadol.

I was advised to take them right off the formula and just give a mix of Lectade for 24 hours to try to get the diarrhea out of their little tiummies. When you pat them it sounds like a big water bottle? Even with the runs they are all putting on weight....but over these last two days they are just so sick....

I managed to get a fecal sample from the boy who was really sick yesterday and they have sent that off to do a culture....that takes days though and i am worried about what path to take with them now.

I've just fed them the Lectade mix, they are all resting quietly. Should i give them Nutrigel aswell to keep the vitamins up to them? Is it a good idea to give them only this for that amount of time?

Should i put them back on the Divetelact tomorrow...or try another formula?

I've tried all i can think of....

This is my first litter, what a nightmare!!! But all i want is my little babies to survive this and be healthy....

Divetelact would not have made them sick; may have given the pups the runs (as with all forumlas)

but you descrbe an infection ...

has their temp gone down?

For sick babies

I use clavulox, if none on hand I remix human amoxcylin to a soluble formula;

very sick pups too weak to nurse I give glucose and antibiotics;

if otherwise healthy puppies get the runs I give them scourban; if no scourban I try protexin;

but you cant use protexin while using Abs.

Young pups need warmth and to keep their fluids up -

you can maintain them on this for a while ...

L:)

NB:

Glucose solution to maintain hydration:

1 part glucose to three part H2O

if no powdered glycogen available can use sugar.

For mastiff size pups, you can give the sick puppy 1mL of glucose solution every three hours.

Edited April 8, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Re sounding like a H20 bottle:

last litter a young puppy became sick at approx 6 days -

I bottle fed and the pup aspirated -

sounded like a H20 bottle -

i gave amoxcyllin formula and glucose liquid to keep the pup going

but that did not stave off pneumonia -

ultimately the sick puppy had a clavulox injection and then was on clavulox for a few days -

no problems after that. became a little dynamo

ETA:

my typos are atrocious and getting worse!!!

Edited April 8, 2010 by lilli

[Kustali]

Hey, they are bottle fed and i burp and toilet them all. The box is now at 25* (was 28* the first week) i've tried to keep them warm, but not so warm that they dehydrate.

It must be some sort of infection, or they are intolerant to the formula. Some of their poos are quite gooey and smelly...It will be good to get the culture results back, hopefully they find something we can 'fix'! But until then i have to keep them going...

Why not Protexin with the Antibiotics?

Edited April 8, 2010 by HANNAH

[BRUVIC]

Put simply ... Protexin is to put 'good bacteria' back into the gut ... most AB's kill both bad and GOOD bacteria, hence AB destroying what Protexin has, if that makes sense. Protexin CAN however be used with some AB's apparently, but someone more in the know that I would be able to shed more light on that.

[BRUVIC]

On another note, and I'm not in favour of constant 'changing' formulas in these already compromised babies, but I just pretty much hand raised a litter of 12 GSD's ... their mother's milk was limited in supply and lousy in quality and I did it with Wombaroo on my vet's recommendation and they did very well on it. And mine is that experienced Repro vet in Perth mentioned so often, so the experience at that clinic is pretty much second to none. Might be handy for future reference. Unlike you tho u poor darling, mine didn't get any infection ... even the one I tried to kill by getting formula in her lungs!! Big strong bitch she is now!! I feel for you and wish you and ur babies only the best.

[centitout]

When i handraised those 6 from that litter of 18,i syringe fed .They started off on di-vetelact-started to go backwards-so they were put on Pal puppy milk/active yogurt/egg yolk and never looked back after that.

I havent had any luck with di-vetelact in the past ,even for hand raising kittens,they just dont seem to do that great.

Regarding the pain,poo-sounds like an infection to me-as well as AB'S,try putting them on hot water bottles too-hot packs seem to soothe them more than just the actual room temp being warm.If you are worried about dehydration ,give them lectade alternatively with milk feeds.

Protexin is a probiotic-to encourage good bacteria in the gut,AB'S kill all bacteria,so it is normally used when the AB'S are finished.

[Cockerlover]

changing formulas all the time ,will cause tummy upsets ,is mum still unable to feed ?

I hand raised a litter of 12 feeding with eye dropper ,When mum recovered from mas I put bubs back on her & continued to supp feed biolac ,I have since learned Goats milk if far better ,(but im not suggesting u change formulars again)

(I also added yougurt, with aphidoficus in it to the formular)If these pupsr coming up for 3 weeks of age ,I personally would be weaning them on to sloopy solids adding a little yogurt to each mushy feed .

Or Alternativley milk mum & feed her milk to bubs.

Warmth is Of upmost inportance for sick babies & as suggested by op, hot water bottols (COVERED) seem to ese tummy pains .

Good luck & may yr devotion pay dividends ,pls keep us updated .

[Aziah]

I can't offer any further advice than those above however I just wanted to wish your babies well and hope they are all happy and well again soon

[SoL]

All I can suggest is keep them warm and hydrated (if you're handy then subcutaneous glucose injections have worked in teh past, though speak to your vet about this one before acting on it), especially if they've got teh runs (I've used Scourban with good results for this). If they're on ABs may be an idea to introduce natural yogurt cultures into their formula.

All the very best of luck and all the very best of caffeine to you! I know how it feels to have a first litter go pear shaped so I'm crossing everything for those little ones and for you.

Keep us posted.

[Bulldust]

Sounds like a bug, i would put all pups on Clavulox drops for 5-7 days. Make sure you always scrub your hands before and after touching them, sterilise their bottles, clean their bed regularly, and only use preboiled water for making their formula. Personally i think Divetelac is rubbish and would never touch the stuff again, i use Wombaroo and never had any problems...keep pinching their skin to make sure they dont get dehydrated, maybe give them a drink of warm preboiled water in between feeds if they are getting a little dehydrated from the scours... hope they recover soon thats alot of puppies for a first litter your poor bugger

[Bilbo Baggins]

Sounds to me like mum got mastitis because the pups where not feeding well.

I have never had a problem with Divetalct.

I hope you can get the pups back on mum. Fenuegreek powder will increase the supply.

[Kustali]

Thanks everyone, i will not put the pups back on mum, she got too ill, draining the life out of her.

All the pups are still here, lots and lots of lectade later.....the runs have turned into gooey poos so that is good. Tomorrow i will try them on some milk, fingers crossed they take it well! From much advise i have been told to try the divetelact again and see how they go....but i do have goats milk and carnation on hand just in case, also some scourban. Womabaroo is hard to get in large amounts, so it's probably not a good idea to start them on that, too hard to find more of.

No time to write really but the advise is much appreciated....thanks.

[BRUVIC]

BTW, Hannah ... someone mentioned starting these babies on solids, and rightly so, once their eyes are open you can do it ... I did with my dirty dozen!! It was messy, time consuming and a right pain in the butt, but they came along in leaps and bounds once they learned how to 'eat' in decent quantities, I used the formula I was feeding them to soak the biscuits and make it sloppy so it was a gradual process from ALL formula to SOME formula mixed with soaked biscuits. Little and often is the key to steadily raising them successfully. Good luck.

[centitout]

When i had that litter of 18 and had to handraise 6,they were put onto solids at 10 days as they were fading despite 2 hr feedings round the clock.Vet told me to alternate between farex/yogurt.milk and the strained beef/carrots and tiny amount of strained liver.Beef was the heinz baby food.They doubled there weight in one week and never looked back.I used a syringe to get it down,just had it sloppy enough to draw up.

[Kustali]

Thanks....yesterday i had the hell debate with the vet about quite a few things actually, but one of the things was....he said in no way can i start them on any solids until they were at least 4-5 weeks old....THAT went against everything i have ever been told by every breeder i have talked to!!!!! He even told me to ring all the animal food companies and all the experts to see what they say as they know better than breeders....and breeders know nothing, vets always know best....can't wait til my own vet gets back!!!!!

With 11 it makes sense to get them in there as early as i can, of course when their tummies are better, but they are licking at the Nutrigel like mad, feisty as ever now...eyes are open, ears and they have little teeth....

[fifi]

Hannah, under theses circumstances, you can start them now on pink slushies, very fine human grade lean beef mince with warmed milk in it. I've recently sat a litter where we needed to semi wean quickly, and one of the newer vets had the same arguments. But most vets are NOT experienced breeders, unless they have a special interest, they only know what they are taught or observe in pets.

Get a dessert bowl, a small handful of the mince, put a cup of milk (goats milk will heat better than divetelact) and put in the microwave for one minute. Pour 3/4 of the milk into the mince and mix with your hand. Take this to the whelp box along with the left over hot milk.

One pup at a time, cradle in your arm or across your lap if easier, and put the bowl under the chin & support the head so their face doesn't fall in & aspirate.

I use my (third ! sometimes you wish you had a third one !!) hand to bring some of the slush by finger to the pup's mouth. some take really quickly. Its a long and messy process, and you need to keep topping up the milk to keep it warm. but after two days you will be able to support a wobbly little body & head to slurp from a tray.

PM me if you need to chat.

fifi

edited to make sense !

Edited April 10, 2010 by fifi

[dancinbcs]

At two weeks they should be able to stand and lap milk from a bowl. I have done this with a litter where mum had no milk left. It was a BC litter and they were only just two weeks. I had given the new breeder instructions to start weaning from 3 weeks but when I saw the puppies screaming for food we made up a big dish of divetelact, put it down and they just lapped. She kept them on this for a week then started with minced meat fed from the hand to each individual puppy at 3 weeks. Once they were used to the meat it was mixed into a slurry with the milk a few days later. By four weeks they should be onto soaked puppy kibble mixed in as well and by 5 weeks onto proper food with different textures.

Idiot vet! I have never heard of anyone waiting until 4 or 5 weeks to start weaning puppies.

[fifi]

At two weeks they should be able to stand and lap milk from a bowl.

only one problem DC, the giant breeds are often still wobbly blobs at two weeks !!! they can usually get up and waddle across a whelping box, but not quite up to the multitasking of standing and not drowning while drinking yet !!!

fifi