Behaviour In The Presence Of Other Dogs

[raineth]

I have a large, approximately 3 year old rescue dog which we adopted in January. His name is Digby.

I have a couple of queeries about his behaviour.

I have taught him to walk on a loose lead beside me when we go for walks - and he does this nicely on command unless we are walking with another dog!!! and then he is so determined to be in front! None of the techniques I used to teach him to walk nicely beside me when we are walking alone, seem to help at all in this situation.

About three nights a week I walk with my friend and her labrador. Digby thinks this is a really wonderful and enjoyable thing. But the pulling is so bad (and he weighs 50 kgs) that the last few times I resorted to using a Head collar which has helped a lot. But I know Halti's are a very contraversial thing.

So I would like to know what is going on - why does he seem to have a desperate urge to be in front in that situation?

And what would people suggest I do to fix it?

my second queery:

When we are out on a walk and we come across another dog and are walking towards the other dog, Digby starts to stalk (kind of like a panther he crouches and creeps forward). When we get to the other dog he stops this and says hello in a friendly way, tail gently wagging and doind the usual sniffs

So I want to know why he does this stalking? Some people find it scary.

I would like to add that I or his foster carer have never seen him behave in a dog aggressive way. Thought I'd mention that incase its relevant ;)

[sas]

With the trying to be in-front, it's not uncommon, it's important that you put your foot down here though as he is trying to get ahead of you and probably the other dog.

How our dogs behave in the pressence of other dogs is always interesting, Leila would always try on these types of behaviours when we brought home new Foster dogs.

I have read about the head down thing but for the life of me I can't remember whether it was lack of confidence or submission or even an bad behaviour so would love to hear from someone who can answer this one!

[Jetty]

Oh I will be watching this thread. Jet does the same thing. When I walk him with another dog he will pull in front.

[raineth]

With the trying to be in-front, it's not uncommon, it's important that you put your foot down here though as he is trying to get ahead of you and probably the other dog.

How our dogs behave in the pressence of other dogs is always interesting, Leila would always try on these types of behaviours when we brought home new Foster dogs.

I have read about the head down thing but for the life of me I can't remember whether it was lack of confidence or submission or even an bad behaviour so would love to hear from someone who can answer this one!

Yeah that's why I did switch to the Head collar as I was worried about it becoming a habit. It is easier for me to manage when in the head collar.

When I walk a bit infront of the labrador Digby is content and will happily walk by my side again

Sometimes I will walk just infront to have a break from continuously correcting him.

Am I rewarding him by doing that?

[raineth]

oh I just wanted to add that with the stalking thing he is not actually crawling along the ground; it looks just like a panther stalking prey, if you know what I mean!

[Steve K9Pro]

I have a large, approximately 3 year old rescue dog which we adopted in January. His name is Digby.

I have a couple of queeries about his behaviour.

I have taught him to walk on a loose lead beside me when we go for walks - and he does this nicely on command unless we are walking with another dog!!! and then he is so determined to be in front! None of the techniques I used to teach him to walk nicely beside me when we are walking alone, seem to help at all in this situation.

About three nights a week I walk with my friend and her labrador. Digby thinks this is a really wonderful and enjoyable thing.

K9: As mentioned earlier, dogs doing this is common, it seems to me they are competing for an ever changing reward, the next tree, park or car to get in.

But the pulling is so bad (and he weighs 50 kgs) that the last few times I resorted to using a Head collar which has helped a lot. But I know Halti's are a very contraversial thing.

K9: Head Collars do give additional leverage, they also come with some risk to the dog and I personally dont find them to be a suitable training tool, we dont ever recommend them at K9 Pro, thats not to say that people have not gained results with them.

I have done a fair bit of testing in the last few months with some of the No pull harnesses, the test results are not complete just yet and they would never be recommended as a "training tool", but for the people with little skill, timing and co ordination, they can be of benefit.

So I would like to know what is going on - why does he seem to have a desperate urge to be in front in that situation?

And what would people suggest I do to fix it?

K9: I havent seen your dog but I would guess that he has not been trained under distraction to walk on a loose leash, he knows when it is just you and him but it sounds like distractions may have been just lumped in on a dog that is only in the foundation level of training. So I would be not walking with another dog just in front unless you want to train, then it will be about applying distraction in controlled measures and remaining in control of your dog.

my second queery:

When we are out on a walk and we come across another dog and are walking towards the other dog, Digby starts to stalk (kind of like a panther he crouches and creeps forward). When we get to the other dog he stops this and says hello in a friendly way, tail gently wagging and doind the usual sniffs

So I want to know why he does this stalking? Some people find it scary.

K9: No one can really tell you why this is happening withut seeing it happen, depending on his history, social structure etc, he could be quite comfortable and has learned this is the way we do it, or he could be crouching in fear or his breed history could mean he is gentically inclinded to behave this way, say if he was of a herding breed for example.

In any case, it sort of sounds like when walking up to meet people, you may be looking at him to see what he is going to do, this isnt ideal as it puts him in the lead position.

I would like to add that I or his foster carer have never seen him behave in a dog aggressive way. Thought I'd mention that incase its relevant

K9: the concern I guess is that he could certainly develop aggression out of this or bring aggression on himself as other dogs and people may not be too comfortable with his stalking...

If you have or can take some video, I would be happy to take a look for you, just email me on [email protected] and we will set it up.

[raineth]

thanks for the reply Steve,

K9: I havent seen your dog but I would guess that he has not been trained under distraction to walk on a loose leash, he knows when it is just you and him but it sounds like distractions may have been just lumped in on a dog that is only in the foundation level of training. So I would be not walking with another dog just in front unless you want to train, then it will be about applying distraction in controlled measures and remaining in control of your dog.

O.k that makes a lot of sense. Yeah we are definitely at foundation level! Although I have been steadily working on things with Digby, and I am pleased with his progress We have a long way to go.

So part of the reason that the techniques that I used for teaching him to walk on lead nicely doesn't work in the presence of other dogs is because he is too distracted and too busy competing with the labrador.

I'll take things back to basics with him then and try to reduce the distraction. I might start by just making it very short.

K9: No one can really tell you why this is happening withut seeing it happen, depending on his history, social structure etc, he could be quite comfortable and has learned this is the way we do it, or he could be crouching in fear or his breed history could mean he is gentically inclinded to behave this way, say if he was of a herding breed for example.

In any case, it sort of sounds like when walking up to meet people, you may be looking at him to see what he is going to do, this isnt ideal as it puts him in the lead position.

Ok I'll make sure that I am not looking at him! I guess I am guilty of looking at him when he does that! Because its so strange!

Something Digby has taught me is to always have a very confident posture , especially in the presence of anything different. I'll be conscious to make sure I am maintaining it in this situation

I'll see if I can get some footage!

As far as I can see he doesn't have any herding breed in him. Unfortunately I really don't know anything about his history; apart from obvious things:

that he has been neglected (for attention and stimulation)

that he has been mistreated.

I do know that he has been attacked by other dogs. He has the scars from it.

K9: Head Collars do give additional leverage, they also come with some risk to the dog and I personally dont find them to be a suitable training tool, we dont ever recommend them at K9 Pro, thats not to say that people have not gained results with them.

I have done a fair bit of testing in the last few months with some of the No pull harnesses, the test results are not complete just yet and they would never be recommended as a "training tool", but for the people with little skill, timing and co ordination, they can be of benefit.

I don't think I'll go down the harness road. I feel that I have been sufficiently enlightened to know how to proceed now! Thank you

[wuffles]

I have a "stalker" too!!! Ours is a boofer as well but he does exhibit some other herding behaviours so we assume he does have a herding instinct. He does the head down, slow walk... then a big POUNCE as he gets close to the other dog.

He is very social, loves other dogs, is dominant but very passive about it. He does have some other social "quirks" so I don't think he was particularly well socialised before he came to us.

[sas]

With the trying to be in-front, it's not uncommon, it's important that you put your foot down here though as he is trying to get ahead of you and probably the other dog.

How our dogs behave in the pressence of other dogs is always interesting, Leila would always try on these types of behaviours when we brought home new Foster dogs.

I have read about the head down thing but for the life of me I can't remember whether it was lack of confidence or submission or even an bad behaviour so would love to hear from someone who can answer this one!

Yeah that's why I did switch to the Head collar as I was worried about it becoming a habit. It is easier for me to manage when in the head collar.

When I walk a bit infront of the labrador Digby is content and will happily walk by my side again

Sometimes I will walk just infront to have a break from continuously correcting him.

Am I rewarding him by doing that?

If it were me and I do, do this with my own dog, I walk him behind my other dog on purpose and he has to walk on a loose leash no matter how much he wants to be infront of her.

He has been trained under distraction mind you but will test the boundaries constantly.

The thing is, they shouldn't be getting constant corrections, they should get the level of correct that stops them from doing something

Edited April 8, 2010 by sas

[raineth]

that's a great point Sas about constant corrections. Mostly they are not working! Yeah the same corrections that work fine when its just the two of us (or three of us when I walk the kids to school) but they just don't mean much to him when he is caught up in the competition of being first

I am using rewards too. And when I can keep him focused he does ok - then he will notice the lab infront and we go back to corrections again.

I'm going to go and find some info on training with distractions today and start on that.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Lets also keep in mind that if your dog is stressed, frightened or anxious winding up corrections or supplying constant corrections isnt the way to go, it would just add pressure to an already pressured exprience...

I agree though that if you are applying constant corrections to a positively motivated dog without getting results there isnt any point continuing, you must look into why your not getting a decrease in that behaviour.

[raineth]

Its ok K9 I'm only talking about the urge to get infront and the pulling - he's not anxious or stressed in that situation he is very excited - and distracted as you suggested above

THe corrections I am talking about are stopping immediately when he gets in front of my leg and turning him around - so its o.k I'm not beating him with a stick or anything!

He doesn't pull when we wals (stalk) towards another dog. I haven't corrected him for stalking

[Steve K9Pro]

Its ok K9 I'm only talking about the urge to get infront and the pulling - he's not anxious or stressed in that situation he is very excited - and distracted as you suggested above

THe corrections I am talking about are stopping immediately when he gets in front of my leg and turning him around - so its o.k I'm not beating him with a stick or anything!

K9: good as beating her with a stick would be abuse not training lol.

The corrections you are using are not corrections, it is not that the action would not be seen as a correction to some dogs, it just isnt being seen by your dog as training isnt progressing.

A correction is something that will reduce the likeliness of the behaviour occuring again, as the behaviour is repetitive, it isnt being corrected.

Your stopping could be adding frustration, which will increase the pulling.

[raineth]

Well I have seen such huge improvements in the last few days :D

I think I can put it down to two things:

1. Having this online conversation made me analyse the situation much more closely than I had been. Digby had learned a trick. He would walk nicely beside me and then all of a sudden pull like a bull (usually to get to a tree first). I couldn't stop the momentum of this sudden pull and therefore he would get to the tree - thus he was rewarded for pulling. Even though I would take him away from the tree straight away when he did this - It was obviously rewarding enough. I am more aware of this trick and can now subvert it I make a change of direction to make sure he is focused on me and rewarding him with food treats for not playing out his trick.

2. K9 mentioned that wanting to be in front is due to competition to be the first to see, sniff and pee. Woohoo! this was an awesome bit of info for me -as I just hadn't quite understood it like that.

Now Digby only gets to sniff and pee when given permission to. Which he has to earn by walking nicely and looking at me for permission then I release him to sniff/pee. Then I put him straight back by my side.