Grooming A Stafforshire Bull Terrier For Showing

[Loves Dogs]

I didn't really come on this forum to argue the colour blue. They are beautiful and I know now that alot of people obviously have problems with them. Why? As I said before, this colour is stated in the standard and sorry to get people worked up about the black nose thing. I also have a black brindal girl and when they are next to each other their noses are pretty similar in colour. All I wanted to know was how best to groom him for a show as I am new and when I say new I mean I have been in two shows! People always ask me why I want to show dogs and I tell them it's because I love being out and about with my dogs and doing activities with them. I don't need and didn't ask people to comment on Austins colour. I am however interested in what you have to say about his conformation. Thankyou to everyone who gave me the info I needed but everyone else can keep their thoughts about blue staffords to them selves. I prefer not to listen to people who are going to bag me out. I am trying to learn and it's people like you that discourage alot of newcomers.

[Sayly]

When you put something false in your DOL profile I think it's wrong, therfore I will tell you so. It's a public forum which means we can voice our thoughts should we want to. Go ahead and ignore them if you want, but I have found being open to other people's thoughts and ideas to be very beneficial.

No one is bagging you out, simply pointing out facts you don't seem to be able to see yourself. You will become a better asset to the breed if you can see things for what they are.

Have fun showing your dog, I have no doubt you are a wonderful owner and no one is picking on you, just pointing out things they may well be very passionate about.

[whippets]

I don't think anyone is having a go at you. There has been some pretty informative things in this thread in regards to staffy colour and dilutes in general.

Even I learned something about the staffy (amazingly so j/k). I didn't know the blacks were actually brindles. So there ya go.

I went and saw Clash of the Titans today (Sam Worthington = hot btw) so I wonder if I can see the brindling if I put on my 3D goggles .

[SwaY]

I didn't really come on this forum to argue the colour blue.

They are beautiful and I know now that alot of people obviously have problems with them. Why?

Why is it when people don't agree or point somethig out, people think they are arguing with them?

As pointed out a blue dog can not have a black nose.

Not to mention 99.9% of blue staffords are breed or money, and have poor conformation.

Im not against the colour blue, I have blue Great Danes, Our standard allows for the blue nose.

I am against breeding colour for money no mater what the breed.

As I said before, this colour is stated in the standard and sorry to get people worked up about the black nose thing.

Your right, the colour blue is allowed in the standard, however you have to read the standard in it's entirety.

Head And Skull: Short, deep though with broad skull. Very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, nose black.

Feet: Well padded, strong and of medium size. Nails black in solid coloured dogs

I also have a black brindal girl and when they are next to each other their noses are pretty similar in colour.

I can see in the profile your dogs nose is clearly blue.

[WreckitWhippet]

I for one won't keep my thoughts about the blue's to myself. Why should I, I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else.

I try my very hardest to steer new comers to the breed, in the direction of ethical breeders, who produce quality dogs and who will help ( or find someone closer who can, if distance is an issue ) to get their puppies into the ring.

I feel so sorry for the new exhibitors with the blue dogs. Colour aside, they are pushing it up a hill with conformation, they will rarely have a win and give up after a few goes in the ring. Sadly, they are often lost to the hobby forever, when it comes to exhibition, but a lot of them will take that second rate pet dog or bitch and breed from them. More poor quality blue, more new exhibitors left disillusioned and the circle continues.

Not everyone starts out with a BIS winner and every dog has it's faults but it would be nice if people new to a breed, are at least given a puppy that might be somewhat competitive.

[poodlefan]

I didn't really come on this forum to argue the colour blue. They are beautiful and I know now that alot of people obviously have problems with them. Why?

Colour breeding (breeding specificially for a particular colour) is a highly controversial practice in many breeds and is frowned on by a lot of folk.

Why?

Because generally, those who breed for "rare", "unusual" or "new" colours, choose colour and ONLY colour as their test of a good breeding prospect. Issues like temperament and conformation get put to one side and most of the progeny tend to be lesser examples of the breed.

Among colour breeders there are pioneers and profiteers. How do you spot a profiteer? They expect you to pay $$$ for the coloured pups. If someone expects you to pay a premium for the privilege of a lesser quality dog of a particular colour, my advice would generally be to run a mile.

Its not just Staffords. Red poodles have followed the same path. The quality of many early red dogs was crap and their temperaments were dodgy. Things are improving but not generally at the hands of the profiteers.

There is a saying among dog folk that "there's no such thing as a good dog of a bad colour". By the time you've found pups from health tested parents of good temperament and chosen a sound happy pup, the colour of its fur should be a minor consideration. It's only "fashion" that makes a particular colour popular and we all know how breeds have paid the price for popularity in the past.

My Whippet Howard was not a colour I'd have chosen but the breeder said he was the best dog in the litter. Now that I've got him, I LOVE his colour!!

Edited April 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[Loves Dogs]

Thankyou SBT123 I shouldnt have written that about people bagging me out. I just get worked up when I feel people are trying to put me down. I am also finding it hard to fit in with the show scene. I personally Havnt been told about the black nose thing at all. All the breeders and vets I have talked to have referred to it as a black nose so I also have done the same thing. I really do want to do the best for this breed as I love them to bits but I also see alot of dogs winning in the ring that I think look amazing but are not nessesary practical. Their legs and noses seem to be getting shorter and when mixed with the high energy of a staffords mind I think can sometimes cause problems such as exaustion. I also compete in agility and there are not alot of staffies out there. The ones who are out there can find it hard to clear jumps and get tired and heat exaustion. All Im trying to say is that, are the breeders who show really trying to make the dog the best it can be or are they trying to have the best looking dog? I know I have opened a whole new can of worms here but after watching that show about english dog breeders and showers and what they have done to some of the breeds it scares me. I really hope that in Australia we are smarter then that and truely breed these dogs to the best they can be and not the best they can look.

Edited April 14, 2010 by staffy lover

[Loves Dogs]

Thankyou poodle fan

[whippets]

Even in my own breed I am yet to see an outstanding example of a black (or black n white for that matter) or solid blue whippet in this country. There are some nice quality black n whites in the USA though.

In regards to whippets, it is silly to specialise in a certain (or multiple) colours when the standard reads that "colour is immaterial".

I had a judge screw his nose up when he noticed my whippet was clown faced. Fool.

edit: typos , because I havn't had my morning coffee yet

Edited April 14, 2010 by whippets

[poodlefan]

Even in my own breed I am yet to see an outstanding example of a black (or black n white for that matter) or solid blue whippet in this country. There are some nice quality black n whites in the USA though.

In regards to whippets, it is stupid to specialise in a certain (or multiple) colours when I standard reads that "colour is immaterial".

I had a judge screw his nose up when he noticed my whippet was clown faced. Fool.

I was thinking about the solids as I wrote my post Whippets but I think its important to preserve them. I hear on the grapevine that the preference for flashy marked dogs is seeing more white appear and that deafness is creeping into the breed. Putting the odd solid breeding into the lines may help prevent that. They seem to crop up in plenty of litters still so you don't seem to need to breed for it.

Non-whippet specialists don't tend to like the fawns (which Howard is) or unusual markings. They seem to like Irish marked brindles.

Edited April 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

Thankyou SBT123 I shouldnt have written that about people bagging me out. I just get worked up when I feel people are trying to put me down. I am also finding it hard to fit in with the show scene. I personally Havnt been told about the black nose thing at all. All the breeders and vets I have talked to have referred to it as a black nose so I also have done the same thing. I really do want to do the best for this breed as I love them to bits but I also see alot of dogs winning in the ring that I think look amazing but are not nessesary practical. Their legs and noses seem to be getting shorter and when mixed with the high energy of a staffords mind I think can sometimes cause problems such as exaustion. I also compete in agility and there are not alot of staffies out there. The ones who are out there can find it hard to clear jumps and get tired and heat exaustion. All Im trying to say is that, are the breeders who show really trying to make the dog the best it can be or are they trying to have the best looking dog? I know I have opened a whole new can of worms here but after watching that show about english dog breeders and showers and what they have done to some of the breeds it scares me. I really hope that in Australia we are smarter then that and truely breed these dogs to the best they can be and not the best they can look.

A standard dog or bitch should have no trouble clearing a jump, they should be energetic, be able to spin on a dime and have stamina.

As far as the short legs goes, no one likes a " long and low " Stafford.

well balanced, of great strength for his size. Muscular, active and agile.

There are naturally some breeds that will be better at agility, quicker across the ground and have the ability to clear a higher jump. If you want the ultimate agility dog, then perhaps the SBT is not for you ( although some do very well ). The SBT like every breed should be bred to the standard, keeping in mind it's original purpose and heritage.

It's up to you to learn about the breed, know and understand the breed standard, before you even consider breeding.

[3Woofs]

I am also finding it hard to fit in with the show scene.

Hi,

I think you were sitting next to me at the Wollongong show.... do you have the cute brindle bitch that does tricks??

I had the amstaff and the baby

Are you going to any shows over the next few months?

If we are at the same shows come on over. It's much more fun at shows when you have people to chat to.

On the grooming issue.... I just bath my amstaff a couple of days before a show so his natural oils are there for the day of the show. I have also just started to trim whiskers, put chalk on his white bits, and use some horse coat shine spray on him.

[3Woofs]

A standard dog or bitch should have no trouble clearing a jump, they should be energetic, be able to spin on a dime and have stamina.

well balanced, of great strength for his size. Muscular, active and agile.

uhuh..... my naughty bitch sails over 6 foot fences no problem at all...... she has lots and lots of stamina.

SBT123.... that run fixed her up though!

[WreckitWhippet]

Hmmm, sounds like one of mine that likes to do back flips on the end of the lead. She's agile but not all that great at sticking the landing.

We've gone splat several times over the years in the ring

[Sandra777]

Their legs and noses seem to be getting shorter

You've been to two shows so you base this observation on what?

I can assure you that the dogs in the 1980's were a heck of a lot longer and lower than they are now! I do agree that in some instances the muzzles are getting too short - but there were plenty of super short/unable to breath correctly dogs around in the 1980's and before.

I also compete in agility and there are not alot of staffies out there.

And this would probably be because the SBT isn't the ideal agility dog, and the really competitive and "agility devoted" people will go for a breed which will be the most competitive. I have trained a couple of SBTs in low level agility myself and while they and I both love it, I would be the first to admit that as a breed they are not perfect for the job, far too happy to think of a funny way of doing things when they get bored. Not like the Border Collie types who will turn themselves inside out trying to figure out what their owner wants them to do - if the SBT gets bored or confused it'll just go 'stuff it, this looks like fun, I'll do it this way'.

All Im trying to say is that, are the breeders who show really trying to make the dog the best it can be or are they trying to have the best looking dog?

Well there's me for a start.

Deliberately breeding for colour which automatically makes the dog fail a section of the breed standard is not a great example of trying to make the dog the best it can be..............

[ellz]

Thankyou SBT123 I shouldnt have written that about people bagging me out. I just get worked up when I feel people are trying to put me down. I am also finding it hard to fit in with the show scene. I personally Havnt been told about the black nose thing at all. All the breeders and vets I have talked to have referred to it as a black nose so I also have done the same thing. I really do want to do the best for this breed as I love them to bits but I also see alot of dogs winning in the ring that I think look amazing but are not nessesary practical. Their legs and noses seem to be getting shorter and when mixed with the high energy of a staffords mind I think can sometimes cause problems such as exaustion. I also compete in agility and there are not alot of staffies out there. The ones who are out there can find it hard to clear jumps and get tired and heat exaustion. All Im trying to say is that, are the breeders who show really trying to make the dog the best it can be or are they trying to have the best looking dog? I know I have opened a whole new can of worms here but after watching that show about english dog breeders and showers and what they have done to some of the breeds it scares me. I really hope that in Australia we are smarter then that and truely breed these dogs to the best they can be and not the best they can look.

Nobody is trying to put you down. All I can read is a lot of people adding to your education process....IF you will let them!

One of the easiest ways to fit into the show scene is to sit down, shut up and listen. You'll hear some amazing things, many to your benefit. Don't just base your friendships on the people within your breed or group. My best friends are from outside the Stafford breed and outside the Terrier Group. You'll also learn more about your dog, and dogs generally by learning about other breeds.

Your naivety is showing in your opinions about the dogs you have seen thus far. There is no doubt you will see a wide cross-section of styles in the show ring. Judging and breeding is a largely subjective thing. BUT regardless of how you personally see a breed, the one thing that should ALWAYS dictate the appearance of your dog is the breed standard. There are certain things within this standard which are COMPLETELY "not negotiable", others which allow a little leeway. As an exhibitor and I presume, potential breeder, the onus is upon YOU to not only read the standard regularly but to know it off by heart, be able to pick things from it to apply to a dog as an instinctive, instant thing and most importantly UNDERSTAND the components. There are a couple of websites which you can not only get the breed standard, but also the breed standard extension which is a valuable tool if understood. The ANKC website is a good place to start.

One of the more important things that I have to mention to you is "don't believe everything that vets say about Staffords (or many other breeds for that matter)". Vets are wonderful when animals are sick or injured....absolutely essential in fact....and I'm NOT bagging vets out for that reason. BUT, unless they are a specialist breeder/exhibitor of a particular breed, they will not tend to know much about the finer points of the dog....the breed standard in particular and many other domestic things in general.

And I hate to say it, but if the many breeders you have spoken to have referred to your dogs' nose as black, then they are uneducated in the breed and should probably take a few steps back and add to their knowledge base prior to adding too many more dogs to the gene pool.

Aside from that, enjoy your experiences at the show. Look, listen and learn. Take the best dog to the show with you and no matter what the judge's opinion is, take that very same dog home with you and you've got half of the show "bit" in hand.

Edited April 15, 2010 by ellz

[Loves Dogs]

yes bluestaff that was me. I will keep an eye out for you next time thanks for the offer. For the record Sandra I have watched plenty of shows, just not competed in them. Thanks everyone for your in put I have learnt alot on this forum.

[Loves Dogs]

Hankyou ellz I have learnt that I probably and always will need to keep up my research on SBT before I start voiceing my opinions

[Loves Dogs]

Hankyou ellz I have learnt that I probably and always will need to keep up my research on SBT before I start voiceing my opinions

[TeamSnag]

As far as the short legs goes, no one likes a " long and low " Stafford.

Oh bugga there goes my idea

Edited April 15, 2010 by TeamSnag