Allergies And/or Stomach Upsets And/or Foul Breath And Prescribed Trea

[stormie]

I guess I probably see it all in a completely different way to other people.

Take the Calendula Tea Spray for example. They know that the anti inflammatory properties come from the faradiol monoester found within the flowers right? So I would rather use just that component, purified, so I that I know that's all I'm putting on him, rather than the rest of the flower, unless I knew exactly what else was in that plant.

So for me its the same with AB's for example. Rather than giving a herbal remedy that has antibiotic properties, I'd rather use the purified form, because of its predictability and effectiveness. Cephalexin (the common AB used for skin) is derived from a type of naturally occuring fungus, but they have isolated the AB component and purified it.

I guess thats just the way I am. Part of me likes using AB's and cortisone because not only is it scientifically proven to be effective, but I also know WHY it's working and what potential side effects are, so I know what to expect and when to cut back etc.

I'm not against natural/herbal etc treatments at all. In fact I think I'm probably more the way I am because I work with a very open minded vet who doesn't push drugs and encourages people to play with diet and other things, so I don't really see much of the 'drug pushing' so to speak that quite possibly goes on by other vets.

[Staranais]

I'm not against natural/herbal etc treatments at all. In fact I think I'm probably more the way I am because I work with a very open minded vet who doesn't push drugs and encourages people to play with diet and other things, so I don't really see much of the 'drug pushing' so to speak that quite possibly goes on by other vets.

My other concern with natural remedies is, how long before bugs start becoming resistant to them as well? Take manuka honey for example - great product, very effective, few/no side effects, and I'm seeing more and more vet practices using it. But it's not like manuka honey has some magical property that prevents bacteria evolving, so I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before we get more and more bugs with a genetic resistance to the active compound.

Just realised that thought is kind of irrelevant to this thread, sorry. But it's something I've been wondering about for a while.

[sas]

My boy can get the itchies, and has dug bloody holes in himself. Finally it as tracked to very low thyroid. He still gets itchy and I know that he is allergic to too much beef and oats. I do not like him on cortisone (IMHO it is pushed too often) as that can lead to Cushing's or atypical Cushing's and that is one disease I'd rather not treat again. It seems that now as long as he gets the right dose of Thyroxine he is OK.

It can take a little figuring out but with the right Vet you can get your dossage of Cortisone at the bare minimum to avoid things like Cushings.

My dog was on higher doses than he needed with previous Vets, the Vets he is with now amended his dossage and he does better and he's a long term Cortisone user....it will most likely shorten his life anyhow although I know of other Danes on it from 3 months of age to 13 years of age, unfortunately we don't have an alternative so his happyness is far more important to me than the length of time he is around.

I'm really pleased you were able to accertain your dogs problem was due to a Thyroid problem.

I'm also for natural remedies....have tried a bunch of them over the course of my dogs life to date HOWEVER I don't think people should be pushed to them instead of seeing a Vet, too many times on this forum we see a bunch of arm chair experts telling people to use this natural remedy and that natural remedy without the Owner actually doing the leg work first through Vets and Dermatologists to try and accertain the root of the problem.

I love Calendula tea for mild stuff, it certainly doesn't do anything for my boy when he's really struggling but I don't think people should be using that either on a long basis if they haven't even seen a Vet about the problem....if there is a reaccuring problem then they need to see a Vet and then possibly a Derm.

The saddest thing I have every come across is an Owner who was personaly against Cortisone so refused to use it and the dog suffered untreated....to me that is animal cruelity at its' finest.

I know a dog related to my dog who has the same skin issues, her Vet refused to let her treat the dog with Cortisone....my Gosh that dog was the saddest sight, I've not seen a dog in that bad of a condition before.....that dog truely suffered and the dog wasn't getting relief from anywhere else. The Dog is now on Cortisone, happy in itself....the owner knows the dog may not live until it's 12 but at least they know the dog doesn't have to suffer because of someones personal opinion.

Edited April 9, 2010 by sas

[stormie]

My boy can get the itchies, and has dug bloody holes in himself. Finally it as tracked to very low thyroid. He still gets itchy and I know that he is allergic to too much beef and oats. I do not like him on cortisone (IMHO it is pushed too often) as that can lead to Cushing's or atypical Cushing's and that is one disease I'd rather not treat again. It seems that now as long as he gets the right dose of Thyroxine he is OK.

This isn't entirely correct. A dog on a dose of cortisone which is too high, can and will eventually develop symptoms of Cushings, however once the cortisone is reduced, these symptoms will eventually go away. If cortisone is going to result in any disease, it's more likely to be Addisons, not Cushings.

Orbit has been on Cortisone since he was about 3-4months old and is now nearly 3. He has been managed by my vet really well and we haven't really seen any significant side effects from it yet.

The following is a dog which the owners would not treat with cortisone and chose 'natural remedies'. It's actually a lab, though its skin is so inflamed it looks more like a Shar Pei. I don't know about you guys, but I think this is just plain cruel...

I'm not saying everyones dogs who aren't on cortisone look like this, but after seeing things like this all the time, you can understand why I think some dogs would really benefit from it and provide immense quality of life.

[sas]

*shakes head*

[Erny]

Oh .... poor Orbit.

Please don't misunderstand (and I'm not sure if the "arm-chair expert" comment was directed at me. Perhaps it was. .... I'm not too worried, because as it has turned out, the things I've mentioned (clearly pointing out I am not a Vet), it seems that my experience has helped other people with their dogs and has provided relief even when other things such as antibiotics/cortisone, has not, so much.

However, the concerns I have which made me raise this thread in the first place is how many people accept the prescriptions of anti-biotics and/or cortisone without question and at the drop of a hat, and how many Vets are seen or heard of prescribing these drugs at the drop of a hat ..... when it may well be possible for something as mild as Calendula to be used to ease symptoms and something as simple as a change of diet or avoidance of an allergy trigger may fix/manage the cause that triggers the symptom in the first place.

Even avoiding washing our dogs as often as some do, I think, can't be doing much to help our dog's systems work things out to normality for itself.

I am in no way opposed to antibiotic drugs. Nor cortisone. Nor medicated dog washes (if they be absolutely necessary and the goal be to use them sparingly and as infrequently as possible). But I do think we jump to the use of these drugs many times unnecessarily. Stormie and Sas - you see and are talking extremeties. My boy's own skin issue was certainly uncomfortable for him - he 'shivered' one night, for the itching (I could only imagine it was something like a constant 'crawling' feeling through his skin that he was experiencing). But the Calendula (in his instance) eased that within 24 hours.

I was soooo ready to give him something in the way of drugs - hated seeing him even for a moment uncomfortable. But I was talked into (by a Vet) to holding back and letting his own body/system work things through and settle down.

This thread is not just about me and my boy. This thread is because I am curious about how many of us do medicate with drugs; how many of us don't; and what the results of doing so and not doing so are. It won't throw up any accurate results - the way the poll works doesn't quite allow that. But it would be interesting (for me, at least) to see how the results read.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Erny

[sas]

Nope, the arm chair expert wasn't directed at your Erny BUT threads like this can be dangerous to people who haventt educated themselves on Cortisone and run a mile from it just because the way people word their disaaproval of the drug.

[stormie]

I get what you're saying Erny and I wish it was that simple, but seeing the dogs that come in on a regular basis, its not always that simple.

Calendula may work on some dogs, but it's not going to work on all of them. Cortisone, on the other hand, does work and can actually be the 'fix' they need to break a cycle. But I can tell you pretty confidently that suggesting to our clients with allergic dogs that they should spray tea on their dogs, would probably see them frustrated that they and their dog has not gotten any relief and would go somewhere else - frustrated because they got no relief, and also because they have to pay for a second consult to get what they need.

Cortisone can actually help with the diagnosis process, believe it or not. Some dogs just get a one off skin irritation and a simple course of pred will break the itch/scratch cycle and the dog will be fixed. If after the course, the problem doesn't return, then you can assume the dog just got into a plant or something that upset the skin.

However when the itching returns after the course, then you know you are dealing with something more chronic and know its time to look into further testing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason these two things are probably prescribed so often, is because they are both important initial treatments to fix a problem. If the problem keeps recurring, then you know its something chronic and you need to do more investigating. Further down the track when we know we're dealing with something more chronic do we start to suggest some of the other things, like oil supplements, soothing shampoos, lotions etc, to help reduce the symptoms. But whilst getting to the diagnosis, which after all is our job, its we need to provide relief to both the patients and the clients.

[Erny]

Nope, the arm chair expert wasn't directed at your Erny BUT threads like this can be dangerous to people who haven't educated themselves on Cortisone and run a mile from it just because the way people word their disapproval of the drug.

IMO, any 'extremist' view of anything isn't good.

Hopefully though, this thread, with the balance of views it does contain, will help people become aware, rather than ward them off one thing or the other.

Except for washing dogs (especially for no reason other than 'we' like them to smell nice ..... IMO we do that too often).

[Lab_Rat]

Stormie thanks for your molecular type description of the actual active ingredients in Calendula and Cortisone! Its a good thing to understand.

I think whole antibiotic and cortisone thing is that the "general public" want results here and now, dont really have the inclination to try something that is "alternative", may take a bit longer or may be a bit messy or whatever! They also trust in their vet to give them something for their sick/itchy dog that is a "medication"!

I feel the majority of DOL members arent like this and would prefer to find the cause behind their dogs ailment and try and fix that. Only when you cant fix it with simple methods are you inclined to have to resort to "drugs". I guess no one wants to have to use drugs like cortisone or antibiotics, but theres always going to be times when you need to I think.

I am lucky in that my vet has also studied, and has a fantastic interest in alternative therapies. She uses Bowen, Acupuncture, Chinese Herbal Medicines and is also a great advocate for non-commercial food. She is open to all sorts of new things, and I feel confident having my two girls under her care.

Rat

[Mas1981]

I get what you're saying Erny and I wish it was that simple, but seeing the dogs that come in on a regular basis, its not always that simple.

Calendula may work on some dogs, but it's not going to work on all of them. Cortisone, on the other hand, does work and can actually be the 'fix' they need to break a cycle. But I can tell you pretty confidently that suggesting to our clients with allergic dogs that they should spray tea on their dogs, would probably see them frustrated that they and their dog has not gotten any relief and would go somewhere else - frustrated because they got no relief, and also because they have to pay for a second consult to get what they need.

Cortisone can actually help with the diagnosis process, believe it or not. Some dogs just get a one off skin irritation and a simple course of pred will break the itch/scratch cycle and the dog will be fixed. If after the course, the problem doesn't return, then you can assume the dog just got into a plant or something that upset the skin.

However when the itching returns after the course, then you know you are dealing with something more chronic and know its time to look into further testing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason these two things are probably prescribed so often, is because they are both important initial treatments to fix a problem. If the problem keeps recurring, then you know its something chronic and you need to do more investigating. Further down the track when we know we're dealing with something more chronic do we start to suggest some of the other things, like oil supplements, soothing shampoos, lotions etc, to help reduce the symptoms. But whilst getting to the diagnosis, which after all is our job, its we need to provide relief to both the patients and the clients.

You do get dogs that cant tolerate the Cortisone though and it makes them feel worse than what the ailment its supposed to be treating does. My dog just cannot tolerate cortisone it doesnt agree with him.

[sas]

Nope, the arm chair expert wasn't directed at your Erny BUT threads like this can be dangerous to people who haven't educated themselves on Cortisone and run a mile from it just because the way people word their disapproval of the drug.

IMO, any 'extremist' view of anything isn't good.

Hopefully though, this thread, with the balance of views it does contain, will help people become aware, rather than ward them off one thing or the other.

Except for washing dogs (especially for no reason other than 'we' like them to smell nice ..... IMO we do that too often).

Don't have to express an extremist view for people to be mis-guided. I still think threads like this don't bring about positive things, whether or not you intended to, your wording is very disapproving of the use of cortisone.

[stormie]

I get what you're saying Erny and I wish it was that simple, but seeing the dogs that come in on a regular basis, its not always that simple.

Calendula may work on some dogs, but it's not going to work on all of them. Cortisone, on the other hand, does work and can actually be the 'fix' they need to break a cycle. But I can tell you pretty confidently that suggesting to our clients with allergic dogs that they should spray tea on their dogs, would probably see them frustrated that they and their dog has not gotten any relief and would go somewhere else - frustrated because they got no relief, and also because they have to pay for a second consult to get what they need.

Cortisone can actually help with the diagnosis process, believe it or not. Some dogs just get a one off skin irritation and a simple course of pred will break the itch/scratch cycle and the dog will be fixed. If after the course, the problem doesn't return, then you can assume the dog just got into a plant or something that upset the skin.

However when the itching returns after the course, then you know you are dealing with something more chronic and know its time to look into further testing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason these two things are probably prescribed so often, is because they are both important initial treatments to fix a problem. If the problem keeps recurring, then you know its something chronic and you need to do more investigating. Further down the track when we know we're dealing with something more chronic do we start to suggest some of the other things, like oil supplements, soothing shampoos, lotions etc, to help reduce the symptoms. But whilst getting to the diagnosis, which after all is our job, its we need to provide relief to both the patients and the clients.

You do get dogs that cant tolerate the Cortisone though and it makes them feel worse than what the ailment its supposed to be treating does. My dog just cannot tolerate cortisone it doesnt agree with him.

Oh for sure, same with AB's and every other drug. And its the same with natural remedies too. Calendula tea didn't go well for Orbit, but he's highly allergic to plants and pollens, so I had a feeling that would happen. Oatmeal is another thing that I can't put on his skin - allergic and makes him worse than before we started.

I was just giving an opinion more so on why it seems it is prescribed so much, because it's often the first course of treatment to fix the problem. If it doesn't work, then it's time to look at working up the problem to find out the cause and going from there. As for whether or not people chose to go down that path, well that's up to the owners and I can tell you from experience atleast 75% don't because they can't afford it and just don't see the point in putting so much time, effort and money into something that for a lot of people, is 'just a dog'.

[Mas1981]

I get what you're saying Erny and I wish it was that simple, but seeing the dogs that come in on a regular basis, its not always that simple.

Calendula may work on some dogs, but it's not going to work on all of them. Cortisone, on the other hand, does work and can actually be the 'fix' they need to break a cycle. But I can tell you pretty confidently that suggesting to our clients with allergic dogs that they should spray tea on their dogs, would probably see them frustrated that they and their dog has not gotten any relief and would go somewhere else - frustrated because they got no relief, and also because they have to pay for a second consult to get what they need.

Cortisone can actually help with the diagnosis process, believe it or not. Some dogs just get a one off skin irritation and a simple course of pred will break the itch/scratch cycle and the dog will be fixed. If after the course, the problem doesn't return, then you can assume the dog just got into a plant or something that upset the skin.

However when the itching returns after the course, then you know you are dealing with something more chronic and know its time to look into further testing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the reason these two things are probably prescribed so often, is because they are both important initial treatments to fix a problem. If the problem keeps recurring, then you know its something chronic and you need to do more investigating. Further down the track when we know we're dealing with something more chronic do we start to suggest some of the other things, like oil supplements, soothing shampoos, lotions etc, to help reduce the symptoms. But whilst getting to the diagnosis, which after all is our job, its we need to provide relief to both the patients and the clients.

You do get dogs that cant tolerate the Cortisone though and it makes them feel worse than what the ailment its supposed to be treating does. My dog just cannot tolerate cortisone it doesnt agree with him.

Oh for sure, same with AB's and every other drug. And its the same with natural remedies too. Calendula tea didn't go well for Orbit, but he's highly allergic to plants and pollens, so I had a feeling that would happen. Oatmeal is another thing that I can't put on his skin - allergic and makes him worse than before we started.

I was just giving an opinion more so on why it seems it is prescribed so much, because it's often the first course of treatment to fix the problem. If it doesn't work, then it's time to look at working up the problem to find out the cause and going from there. As for whether or not people chose to go down that path, well that's up to the owners and I can tell you from experience atleast 75% don't because they can't afford it and just don't see the point in putting so much time, effort and money into something that for a lot of people, is 'just a dog'.

I myself cannot take AB's and now that you mention it oatmeal makes my dog itch too....I bought him Aloveen because it looked nice and natural and it makes him itch like no other. I have only put calendula tea on once and that was last night, he seemed the same but I would like to try it a few times and see but now I am worried as my dog is allergic to pollen and some plants too.

[Erny]

I myself cannot take AB's and now that you mention it oatmeal makes my dog itch too....I bought him Aloveen because it looked nice and natural and it makes him itch like no other. I have only put calendula tea on once and that was last night, he seemed the same but I would like to try it a few times and see but now I am worried as my dog is allergic to pollen and some plants too.

Masons Mom - I know of a number of people who have informed me their dogs are allergic to pollen/plants. I cautioned them about using the Calendula Tea wash carefully (eg. test patch). Yet they've come back to me to advise it helped immensely.

Yes, I do have a lot of faith in the Calendula, but I am very aware that whilst something might work successfully for many, "many" doesn't mean "all".

If there is no change for the better in terms of rash/red skin (if that's what your dog shows as a symptom) once you've applied one more time and certainly, if the itching is also not reduced inside 24 hours of the next application of it, then I would question its effectiveness on your dog. Foremostly, if there is any worsening of either skin or itching, cease use completely.

Remember too that the Calendula only serves to reduce/ease the symptoms and that it is not a cure.

ETA: My boy was prescribed antibiotics because he had mucous with his stools. Maybe it was only coincidental, but prior to the AB's his stools at least were formed and otherwise ok looking. During the course of the AB's (a few days in) his stools became blackish and runny. I was encouraged to continue with the course but it did nothing to improve his stools.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Erny

[TerraNik]

My dog is another 'extreme'... He has severe atopic dermatitis and has been on cortisone on and off - mostly while we were waiting for his immunotherapy vaccine to be developed and for his flare-ups early-on in his immunotherapy. He's now been off the steroids for over a month and is already showing improvements on the immunotherapy after only 3 months.

In the past though - he was given two cortisone injections for allergic reactions to unknown allergens (still don't know what caused it). He was prescribed cortisone tablets by our vet dermatologist to give him some relief after we found out he has atopic dermatitis. This was on a day on/day off basis.

We were also told to try medicated washes but they did nothing to help so we stopped using them.

Edited April 9, 2010 by TerraNik

[Mas1981]

I myself cannot take AB's and now that you mention it oatmeal makes my dog itch too....I bought him Aloveen because it looked nice and natural and it makes him itch like no other. I have only put calendula tea on once and that was last night, he seemed the same but I would like to try it a few times and see but now I am worried as my dog is allergic to pollen and some plants too.

Masons Mom - I know of a number of people who have informed me their dogs are allergic to pollen/plants. I cautioned them about using the Calendula Tea wash carefully (eg. test patch). Yet they've come back to me to advise it helped immensely.

Yes, I do have a lot of faith in the Calendula, but I am very aware that whilst something might work successfully for many, "many" doesn't mean "all".

If there is no change for the better in terms of rash/red skin (if that's what your dog shows as a symptom) once you've applied one more time and certainly, if the itching is also not reduced inside 24 hours of the next application of it, then I would question its effectiveness on your dog. Foremostly, if there is any worsening of either skin or itching, cease use completely.

Remember too that the Calendula only serves to reduce/ease the symptoms and that it is not a cure.

I will try it again tomorrow, I wanted to do it today but Mason was shaking his head so much this morning I made a vets appointment for after work, I thought it was an infection starting deep down in his ear but its actually a ball of hair stuck in there. We have to try flush it out or else next week he has to be sedated and have it manually removed. I am so hoping it comes out this weekend!!!

[stormie]

Yep - the pollens/plants thing sucks.

We're trialling the Essential 6 Spot On which is said to help replenish the skins natural barrier. Trouble is, its full of all these plant oils. They say its hypoallergenic and I know the Sydney Uni Derm is using it a lot, but the second application saw Porp quite itchy the next day. He's due for his 3rd application now so will see how it goes. I must say though, his skin and coat is looking and smelling much better, but so far no reduction in itching.

Thankfully with the weather cooling down it means I can start putting his pyjamas on more often, which protects him from absorbing the pollens and sees a real reduction in the itching.

[stormie]

I myself cannot take AB's and now that you mention it oatmeal makes my dog itch too....I bought him Aloveen because it looked nice and natural and it makes him itch like no other. I have only put calendula tea on once and that was last night, he seemed the same but I would like to try it a few times and see but now I am worried as my dog is allergic to pollen and some plants too.

Masons Mom - I know of a number of people who have informed me their dogs are allergic to pollen/plants. I cautioned them about using the Calendula Tea wash carefully (eg. test patch). Yet they've come back to me to advise it helped immensely.

Yes, I do have a lot of faith in the Calendula, but I am very aware that whilst something might work successfully for many, "many" doesn't mean "all".

If there is no change for the better in terms of rash/red skin (if that's what your dog shows as a symptom) once you've applied one more time and certainly, if the itching is also not reduced inside 24 hours of the next application of it, then I would question its effectiveness on your dog. Foremostly, if there is any worsening of either skin or itching, cease use completely.

Remember too that the Calendula only serves to reduce/ease the symptoms and that it is not a cure.

I will try it again tomorrow, I wanted to do it today but Mason was shaking his head so much this morning I made a vets appointment for after work, I thought it was an infection starting deep down in his ear but its actually a ball of hair stuck in there. We have to try flush it out or else next week he has to be sedated and have it manually removed. I am so hoping it comes out this weekend!!!

Fingers crossed for you! We're SO SO lucky we don't get ear troubles, as many atopic dogs also suffer chronic ear infections.

You should have seen the dog we saw today. Dog with chronically infected ears which unfortunately the owners never really got to the bottom of and fixed, and now they're so bad the dog doesn't even have visible ear canals - its so thickened inside from the chronic inflammation that we couldn't even get a tiny catheter in there. Poor guy is probably going to have to have a complete oblation (ie completely dug out) of both ears.

I have a picture if you want to see, but it's pretty feral!!

[Erny]

I will try it again tomorrow, I wanted to do it today but Mason was shaking his head so much this morning I made a vets appointment for after work, I thought it was an infection starting deep down in his ear but its actually a ball of hair stuck in there. We have to try flush it out or else next week he has to be sedated and have it manually removed. I am so hoping it comes out this weekend!!!

Oh gosh .... our 'problematic' dogs do seem to have the knack of getting themselves into one health issue after another (related or not), don't they? Fingers crossed that the ball of hair in his ear manages to work its way out over the next few days!!

Good luck too, Stormie, with the Essential 6 spot-on. I really hope it works for you. That his coat is looking and smelling better is a good sign .... just hope the itching reduces as well