Allergies And/or Stomach Upsets And/or Foul Breath And Prescribed Trea

[Erny]

Not sure I've done the poll as good as I could, so before anyone starts answering, would you mind peering your objective eyes over it to see where I need to straighten things up and out in so far as the questions and options are concerned.

What I'm interested in is how many people have had dogs with allergies and/or stomach upsets and have been prescribed anti-biotics and/or cortisone as the treatment. I'm also interested in knowing the stats on how many dogs have been prescribed this treatment (anti-biotics and/or cortisone) without the actual cause of the symptom being known (that's the "just in case" option).

I am not suggesting nor making a move to say that the treatments have been wrong or wrongly administered, although I admit to some alarm at how many seem to be writing in about their dog's ills and that the treatment by anti-biotics and/or cortisone seems to be becoming the standard treatment approach.

I'm not sure what the poll will reveal and am aware that its content may end up a bit skewed, but it is just for interest sake. And the fact that I should be doing book-work. And I hate book-work. And if I put the book-work off long enough maybe the book-work fairies will come along and do it for me. And maybe pigs will fly.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Erny

[poodlefan]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "stomach upset" Erny? Do you mean mild cases.

Darcy has had two bouts of HGE.. without antibiotics, he may not have made it.

[Pete.the.dog]

Not sure I've done the poll as good as I could, so before anyone starts answering, would you mind peering your objective eyes over it to see where I need to straighten things up and out in so far as the questions and options are concerned.

What I'm interested in is how many people have had dogs with allergies and/or stomach upsets and have been prescribed anti-biotics and/or cortisone as the treatment. I'm also interested in knowing the stats on how many dogs have been prescribed this treatment (anti-biotics and/or cortisone) without the actual cause of the symptom being known (that's the "just in case" option).

I am not suggesting nor making a move to say that the treatments have been wrong or wrongly administered, although I admit to some alarm at how many seem to be writing in about their dog's ills and that the treatment by anti-biotics and/or cortisone seems to be becoming the standard treatment approach.

I'm not sure what the poll will reveal and am aware that its content may end up a bit skewed, but it is just for interest sake. And the fact that I should be doing book-work. And I hate book-work. And if I put the book-work off long enough maybe the book-work fairies will come along and do it for me. And maybe pigs will fly.

Sorry had a thought after I posted. Pete was itchy and had some bumps, vet said he thought it was seasonal allergies, got a cortisone cream for it and said if this doesn't do the trick come back. So I don't know if that counts as a 'just in case' option or not?

ADD: it DID do the trick

Edited April 7, 2010 by Pete.the.dog

[Dogsfevr]

From a kennel owner point of view i will say this.

Many people have no idea what meds there do has been prescribe,what there for,what there suppose to do & what are the side effects & why those where the chosen meds.

I believe there is a higher percentage of "just in case".

We are very particular about meds & want to now the why/what fors etc etc & are they really necessary .what alternatives .

[Erny]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "stomach upset" Erny? Do you mean mild cases.

Darcy has had two bouts of HGE.. without antibiotics, he may not have made it.

Yes - I mean 'mild' cases, certainly not life-threatening cases.

[stormie]

Orbit is given regular cortisone. He was prescribed this at about 4 months old because he was itching so bad he would cut himself open. Cortisone was given because its an anti inflammatory, and the reason he was itching was due to inflammed skin due to allergies.

Occasionally he has really bad flare ups, where he develops secondary skin infections, which in turn make him even worse. It is then I give him a course of AB's because again, I know it's going to work and treat the bacterial infection and thus relieve his symptoms.

He has since been diagnosed as Atopic. He has a number of things he is allergic to.

Personally, my view on why this treatment is used so frequently, is because they are the only treatments which are proven to work to relieve the symptoms (I'm talking bad cases of Atopy here, not just a dog that gets flaky skin or a few bumps here and there), both scientifically and evidently.

From my vets experience, given the option of a simple course of tablets every couple of months, or for those with extreme allergies every second day, or spending thousands at the Derm for a treatment which may not even be successful, most chose the simpler, cheaper option.

Why do I chose this drugs? Because it gives my dog a 'normal' life, with quality. I've tried herbal and homeopathic remedies, all different types of oils, supplements etc, antihistamines (every type) and nothing gives him enough relief like Cortisone does. Without it, he's unhappy, he gets hot from the constant inflamed skin and the action of scratching and he doesn't sleep at night because he's so itchy. He goes off his food because he feels so crap and you can't even pat him because it makes his skin crawl.

Am I worried it will shorten his life? Somewhat, but I would much rather have him lead a happy normal, yet shorter life, than withhold drugs which give him quality of life to keep him around longer for my sake, living in constant discomfort.

[Erny]

Sorry had a thought after I posted. Pete was itchy and had some bumps, vet said he thought it was seasonal allergies, got a cortisone cream for it and said if this doesn't do the trick come back. So I don't know if that counts as a 'just in case' option or not?

ADD: it DID do the trick

I would probably include that as a "just in case" option.

There will definitely be some blurring around the edges of the questions and everyone's answers, because there are so many contingencies to each case that is too difficult to get around by way of only a poll.

Glad it did the trick, Pete.the.dog .

[Erny]

Hi Stormie - appreciate your input and explanation. Please (and this goes to anyone who is reading) understand that I am not challenging anything here and especially not challenging those who have made the choices they've made, whether that be to opt for antibiotic and/or cortisone treatment, or not.

Yes, I am concerned by how frequently and easily these drugs seem to be being prescribed - in fact, it disturbs me a fair amount. But I am not a person who has "crossed over" shall we say. I guess with my experience (with my own current boy and to a degree with my previous avatar girl - bless her cotton socks) I have become more knowledgeable of natural alternatives; more balanced and cautious in my approach to drug administration; and by the obvious point of this poll, more inquisitive about what the "majority" (DOL community being the easiest although by no means 'general' source) of people's experiences with their dog's problematic symptoms have been.

I hope I have not and do not cause ire from anyone who reads this thread and poll. Not that I think you came across as angry Stormie.

ETA: If anything comes out of this poll at all, I hope it is that perhaps some might stop, think and question what they are doing and why, when it comes to not only the treatments but why those treatments might have been prescribed in the first place.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Erny

[stormie]

I don't think you came across as angry at all Erny - hope you didn't take that from my post either. I do understand where you're coming from - I guess that I see it from a completely different view to you. The way I see it, if there was another option for people that actually worked, we'd be prescribing that, if you know what I mean.

I think most cases of bad skin we see are either seasonal, where a couple of oral courses of Pred work and do little harm, or are cases where the dog is otherwise healthy, and has developed inflamed skin and just need a course of either or both to break the cycle and the dog then returns to normal.

Like I said before, I believe they are prescribed because it's the appropriate treatment which works, just like we fix a wound with stitches - it's just the treatment.

It's a tough one when you're in the industry. Because on one hand, you get people like yourself who want to avoid the drugs, which is totally fine, but then there's the other type of people (and from our experience is actually the majority) who don't want to spend any more than they have to and actually get frustrated when you start talking to them about oil supps, diet changes etc because it's all too hard, and just want the simple dose of pills to fix the problem, which has worked every other time!

[stormie]

If you don't mind Erny, I'd love to also know for those who do use regular AB's or Cortisone, who has tried/exhausted all other options? eg did they do desentising injections, homeopathics, etc?

[Erny]

If you don't mind Erny, I'd love to also know for those who do use regular AB's or Cortisone, who has tried/exhausted all other options? eg did they do desentising injections, homeopathics, etc?

That could potentially be another poll, perhaps? If you'd like me to put one up, suggest the questions and question options you'd like put up. Or of course, feel free to start one up under your own user name . I kind of tried (vaguely) to cover that one with the "just in case" question.

[Erny]

It's a tough one when you're in the industry. Because on one hand, you get people like yourself who want to avoid the drugs, which is totally fine, but then there's the other type of people (and from our experience is actually the majority) who don't want to spend any more than they have to and actually get frustrated when you start talking to them about oil supps, diet changes etc because it's all too hard, and just want the simple dose of pills to fix the problem, which has worked every other time!

Yes - I can completely understand that. It wasn't all that long ago that I too, through the ignorance of not knowing what I know now, felt that I wasn't doing anything to fix the problem unless I delivered a drug/pill. And I can fully appreciate there would be plenty of people out there who just expect people such as yourself and those in your industry to "just fix it" without them making any or much effort to alter anything within their lifestyle that might be contributing to the cause of the problem in the first place. And I can fully appreciate that because I get a little bit of the same at times, in the course of my own work/job.

I also remember (it wasn't all that long ago) when my boy began breaking out into hives (the first time) - it was really hard to resist the urge to wash him in SOMETHING. After speaking over the phone with the Vet we were with and he explaining to me what happens when we sometimes try to treat an (especially skin) issue with a chemical, it made me realise that I wanted to shampoo because it would make me feel better, not necessarily be the best thing that would make my dog better (speaking for the long-term result). And I recognise there are many others out there who obviously feel the same way as I did, but don't realise that without some more thought, it isn't necessarily what is best for their dog. We've become so reactive rather than proactive in our approaches in certain things.

[sas]

Not sure I've done the poll as good as I could, so before anyone starts answering, would you mind peering your objective eyes over it to see where I need to straighten things up and out in so far as the questions and options are concerned.

What I'm interested in is how many people have had dogs with allergies and/or stomach upsets and have been prescribed anti-biotics and/or cortisone as the treatment. I'm also interested in knowing the stats on how many dogs have been prescribed this treatment (anti-biotics and/or cortisone) without the actual cause of the symptom being known (that's the "just in case" option).

I am not suggesting nor making a move to say that the treatments have been wrong or wrongly administered, although I admit to some alarm at how many seem to be writing in about their dog's ills and that the treatment by anti-biotics and/or cortisone seems to be becoming the standard treatment approach.

I'm not sure what the poll will reveal and am aware that its content may end up a bit skewed, but it is just for interest sake. And the fact that I should be doing book-work. And I hate book-work. And if I put the book-work off long enough maybe the book-work fairies will come along and do it for me. And maybe pigs will fly.

You don't have an option for us, we're on Cortisone no matter if it's summer or winter and we're on it every 2nd day, not just in-case or any other reason other than the dogs condition can not be controlled without and he suffers without it.

[sas]

If you don't mind Erny, I'd love to also know for those who do use regular AB's or Cortisone, who has tried/exhausted all other options? eg did they do desentising injections, homeopathics, etc?

That could potentially be another poll, perhaps? If you'd like me to put one up, suggest the questions and question options you'd like put up. Or of course, feel free to start one up under your own user name . I kind of tried (vaguely) to cover that one with the "just in case" question.

We don't fit in your 'just in case' section - we fit into 'the dog suffers without Cortisone and would be pts otherwise' so I'd appreciate it you didn't say we should fit into your 'just in case' section

Edited April 7, 2010 by sas

[Erny]

We don't fit in your 'just in case' section - we fit into 'the dog suffers without Cortisone and would be pts otherwise' so I'd appreciate it you didn't imply we should fit into your 'just in case' section

I'm sorry, Sas, for the troubles your dog has. I wish it could be different, just as I wish it could be different for any health issues any dog has.

But I didn't say and don't think I implied you should fit into the "just in case" section.

If you think I did and if you'd like me to put up another category (not sure if I have enough poll room to do that) please let me know.

ETA: "Just in case" means (for the purpose of this poll) that "we don't know the cause and cortisone/antibiotics were prescribed without really knowing". I thought I had explained that in the OP but my apologies if that wasn't clear. The words "just in case" were not intended to sound as though one didn't care what the cause was, but just that it was unknown.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Erny

[stormie]

I also remember (it wasn't all that long ago) when my boy began breaking out into hives (the first time) - it was really hard to resist the urge to wash him in SOMETHING. After speaking over the phone with the Vet we were with and he explaining to me what happens when we sometimes try to treat an (especially skin) issue with a chemical, it made me realise that I wanted to shampoo because it would make me feel better, not necessarily be the best thing that would make my dog better (speaking for the long-term result). And I recognise there are many others out there who obviously feel the same way as I did, but don't realise that without some more thought, it isn't necessarily what is best for their dog. We've become so reactive rather than proactive in our approaches in certain things.

I can relate to that. I think this probably illustrates why it's possibly the best thing to get an actual diagnosis first, before anything else. Because for us, it's completely the opposite and regular washing with something very mild helps, because being atopic, he absorbs pollens through his skin as well, so regular washing/rinsing actually reduces what is absorbed and helps to reduce his itching!

Another thing which I think makes it hard, is the way you diagnose allergies/atopy. It can only be a process of elimination.

Say John Smith comes to see us with Rex who has itchy skin. To relieve Rex's discomfort, he's given a short course of Pred. Now if it was just a secondary problem, because of some plant reaction, Rex might get better and not get itchy again. This isn't all that uncommon and many dogs just get given a single course and are 'fixed'.

But if its an allergy, he will get itchy once the Pred wears off. So John and Rex come back. So we discuss allergies. Talk about eliminating parasites, foods etc first. Talk about supplements to help with the skin and then referrals to Derms. In most cases, Mr Smith doesn't want to know about all this. The pills worked the first time, so lets just have them.

If only there was a simpler way to get to the final diagnosis that doesn't involve the months of elimination prior to getting to the end.

[sas]

We don't fit in your 'just in case' section - we fit into 'the dog suffers without Cortisone and would be pts otherwise' so I'd appreciate it you didn't imply we should fit into your 'just in case' section

I'm sorry, Sas, for the troubles your dog has. I wish it could be different, just as I wish it could be different for any health issues any dog has.

But I didn't say and don't think I implied you should fit into the "just in case" section.

If you think I did and if you'd like me to put up another category (not sure if I have enough poll room to do that) please let me know.

I kind of tried (vaguely) to cover that one with the "just in case" question.

You did actually say it Erny. Anyways....

[Mas1981]

I also remember (it wasn't all that long ago) when my boy began breaking out into hives (the first time) - it was really hard to resist the urge to wash him in SOMETHING. After speaking over the phone with the Vet we were with and he explaining to me what happens when we sometimes try to treat an (especially skin) issue with a chemical, it made me realise that I wanted to shampoo because it would make me feel better, not necessarily be the best thing that would make my dog better (speaking for the long-term result). And I recognise there are many others out there who obviously feel the same way as I did, but don't realise that without some more thought, it isn't necessarily what is best for their dog. We've become so reactive rather than proactive in our approaches in certain things.

I can relate to that. I think this probably illustrates why it's possibly the best thing to get an actual diagnosis first, before anything else. Because for us, it's completely the opposite and regular washing with something very mild helps, because being atopic, he absorbs pollens through his skin as well, so regular washing/rinsing actually reduces what is absorbed and helps to reduce his itching!

Another thing which I think makes it hard, is the way you diagnose allergies/atopy. It can only be a process of elimination.

Say John Smith comes to see us with Rex who has itchy skin. To relieve Rex's discomfort, he's given a short course of Pred. Now if it was just a secondary problem, because of some plant reaction, Rex might get better and not get itchy again. This isn't all that uncommon and many dogs just get given a single course and are 'fixed'.

But if its an allergy, he will get itchy once the Pred wears off. So John and Rex come back. So we discuss allergies. Talk about eliminating parasites, foods etc first. Talk about supplements to help with the skin and then referrals to Derms. In most cases, Mr Smith doesn't want to know about all this. The pills worked the first time, so lets just have them.

If only there was a simpler way to get to the final diagnosis that doesn't involve the months of elimination prior to getting to the end.

Would it be better, if you had an allergic dog and wasnt 100% sure what the cause was , to try and find out through a vet what the allergy is before consulting a homeopath?

[Kelpie-i]

I own working Kelpies...so none of the above

Let me take that back in case I curse myself

Will be interested in the outcome though!

Edited April 7, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

You did actually say it Erny. Anyways....

Not to you, Sas. I'm sorry it causes an issue though. I don't think you have to tick the "just in case" option.

But as I mention, if you'd rather I included another option or even if you would like me to alter the wording of that for fear that I am causing insult, please let me know and perhaps suggest some wording that might cover.