Supreme Court Judgment

[tybrax]

This was always going to be a bad result. There could be no other outcome. Unfortunately the court got it right.

Everyone involved in the breeding & exhibiting of pure breed dogs knows the AST is the APBT bred to a standard for the conformation & the temperament desired by the the true believers of the breed.

They have been cruising under the radar, until now.

This silly uninformed person has just put redneck crosshairs squarely on the breed. She certainly had bad advice.

I see a bad moon rising. I see trouble on the way.

Easy to lay blame when it was Geoff Irwins who handed the submission in stating the amstaff is a Pit bull at the last minute.

What was his comment in court, oh yeah we made a mistakes 6 years ago, and forgot to add the Amstaff.

Sheer Malice

tybrax

It's a terrible result.

But one that every breed knowlegable individual knew was a distinct possibility.

There is no escaping the fact the AST & the APBT are the same breed.

Being in denial doesn't help.

In fact it has just exaggerated the situation. There are so many people out there with dogs they were told were not APBTs They are now faced with a raft of possibilities, all of them bad.

I have just had a pool installed & the contractor was telling me about his AST.

I ask him the obvious questions..."

"Did you buy him from a registered breeder"

"Yes"

"did you get the ANKC registration papers?"

"No, we don't want to show him"

"First thing you do when you get home is contact the breeder & arrange for the papers to be forwarded, without them if there is any bother your dog will be classed as a pit bull. ANKC rego papers with the matching micro chip number will be accepted as proof of breed & could just save his life & you a lot of grief"

"But he is an Amstaff, not a pit bull"

'" Same breed"

'They told me it isn't"

"They lied"

Now it may not matter anymore.

It would have been better for all concerned if the people had of just moved south to Australia.

Cheaper too.

How much do you reckon the court costs will be? A mill maybe?

And your an expert in breed id????

[harleyrose]

Pretty much i'd say. Better than most anyway.

But I.D wasn't necessary here.

The plaintiff declared her dog to be an AST & then presented her "expert evidence"to the court that showed the AST & the APBT to be the same breed.

What was she trying to do?

Baffle them with stupidity?

We will probably follow the U.K. now & ban the AST as just another name for the APBT. Ditto ABD etc, etc.

Look out for an upsurge in "sporting staffordshire bull terriers"

[tybrax]

Rubbish the evidence was to prove the three points.

The dog was an Amstaff, the checklist was invalid, and there are no experts in breed id. This is what the Supreme Court case was about. So Tango won his three points

and should of been free to go home.

Until Geoff Irwin at the last minute added the submission That the Amstaff is a Pit Bull. Sheer Malice because they new they couldn't win.

tybrax

[chrisjc]

what would make you an expert? it doesnt matter wheather i can or you can if thats the way the ruling is we are stuffed.

i think that they are pretty easy to tell apart personally.

how many red nose american staffs have you seen?

how many blue Apbt's have you seen?

ive never mat a single Amstaff with the same personality of any of the Apbt's that ive owned. not one. and every Apbt ive owned has had a very similar temp.

just because some moron from a council thinks they are the same doesnt mean they are.

they have pretty much been bred seperatly on seperate lines for over 50 years.

truly you can tell me you think they are the same as much as you want i will laugh harder each time.

but that wont change this ruling, i just hope the Amstaff people, choose to work together with us instead of holding any spite towards us so we can move forward together.

[chrisjc]

exactly tybrax, it is more out of spite and revenge for making them look stupid on numerous other occasions.

i dont think it has anything to do with Amstaffs.

[tybrax]

exactly tybrax, it is more out of spite and revenge for making them look stupid on numerous other occasions.

i dont think it has anything to do with Amstaffs.

Yep thats it, Sheer Malice!!

tybrax

[Jed]

Tybrax, I don't understand. Kylie Chivers in her evidence used work by Brashear and Harvey which states the pitbull and amstaff are the same dog.

Yet you say

Until Geoff Irwin at the last minute added the submission That the Amstaff is a Pit Bull. Sheer Malice because they new they couldn't win.

Can you clarify that please? It would seem that Geoff Irwin was only agreeing with K Chivers submission stating that the amstaff and apbt were the same dog.

I don't understand.

[Howl]

Rubbish the evidence was to prove the three points.

The dog was an Amstaff, the checklist was invalid, and there are no experts in breed id. This is what the Supreme Court case was about. So Tango won his three points

and should of been free to go home.

tybrax

None of these are mentioned in the decision.

Maybe these were what the case was about to you but it seems the judge wasn't on the same page.

[Howl]

exactly tybrax, it is more out of spite and revenge for making them look stupid on numerous other occasions.

i dont think it has anything to do with Amstaffs.

Yep thats it, ;) Sheer Malice!!

tybrax

Oh FFS! It was a Supreme Court case with huge ramifications which ever way it went and most likely tens of thousands of dollars in cost. I don't think malice has anything to do with it.

The council even offered the owners to return Tango to his home on the Gold Coast years ago as a restricted dog but the owners cut their noses off to spite their faces and refused.

[justin19801]

While we quibble Rome burns. AST=APBT=SBT. Get used to it. The world has known this for decades and it will slowly spread Australia-wide. People who see differences in the breeds are only kidding themselves. The good thing is ANKC may now get off it's A** and fight breed discriminatory legislation for all breeds not just theirs, because when BDL starts, as it solves nothing, it only gets worse and worse. Congrats to Chivers for having the guts to stand up for all breeds in this country. We should all be thanking her and Mr Mokomoko. Even if the Qld govt removes the AST from pit bull type, the court decision can be used to label APBTs as ASTs. Ultimately it's about saving harmless family pets from being killed by the likes of the R$PCA who are IMO the real villains here.

[JustinMorgan]

This was always going to be a bad result. There could be no other outcome. Unfortunately the court got it right.

Everyone involved in the breeding & exhibiting of pure breed dogs knows the AST is the APBT bred to a standard for the conformation & the temperament desired by the the true believers of the breed.

They have been cruising under the radar, until now.

This silly uninformed person has just put redneck crosshairs squarely on the breed. She certainly had bad advice.

I see a bad moon rising. I see trouble on the way.

Easy to lay blame when it was Geoff Irwins who handed the submission in stating the amstaff is a Pit bull at the last minute.

What was his comment in court, oh yeah we made a mistakes 6 years ago, and forgot to add the Amstaff.

Sheer Malice

tybrax

It's a terrible result.

But one that every breed knowlegable individual knew was a distinct possibility.

There is no escaping the fact the AST & the APBT are the same breed.

Being in denial doesn't help.

In fact it has just exaggerated the situation. There are so many people out there with dogs they were told were not APBTs They are now faced with a raft of possibilities, all of them bad.

I have just had a pool installed & the contractor was telling me about his AST.

I ask him the obvious questions..."

"Did you buy him from a registered breeder"

"Yes"

"did you get the ANKC registration papers?"

"No, we don't want to show him"

"First thing you do when you get home is contact the breeder & arrange for the papers to be forwarded, without them if there is any bother your dog will be classed as a pit bull. ANKC rego papers with the matching micro chip number will be accepted as proof of breed & could just save his life & you a lot of grief"

"But he is an Amstaff, not a pit bull"

'" Same breed"

'They told me it isn't"

"They lied"

Now it may not matter anymore.

It would have been better for all concerned if the people had of just moved south to Australia.

Cheaper too.

How much do you reckon the court costs will be? A mill maybe?

;)

[geo]

exactly tybrax, it is more out of spite and revenge for making them look stupid on numerous other occasions.

i dont think it has anything to do with Amstaffs.

Yep thats it, Sheer Malice!!

tybrax

Oh FFS! It was a Supreme Court case with huge ramifications which ever way it went and most likely tens of thousands of dollars in cost. I don't think malice has anything to do with it.

The council even offered the owners to return Tango to his home on the Gold Coast years ago as a restricted dog but the owners cut their noses off to spite their faces and refused.

Why should they have to have him restricted if he wasn't a restricted dog? it's about principals and they stuck by theirs. All court cases are about winning at any cost, malice has plenty to do with it. I'm sure the council and them aren't really on friendly terms.

[geo]

While we quibble Rome burns. AST=APBT=SBT. Get used to it. The world has known this for decades and it will slowly spread Australia-wide. People who see differences in the breeds are only kidding themselves. The good thing is ANKC may now get off it's A** and fight breed discriminatory legislation for all breeds not just theirs, because when BDL starts, as it solves nothing, it only gets worse and worse. Congrats to Chivers for having the guts to stand up for all breeds in this country. We should all be thanking her and Mr Mokomoko. Even if the Qld govt removes the AST from pit bull type, the court decision can be used to label APBTs as ASTs. Ultimately it's about saving harmless family pets from being killed by the likes of the R$PCA who are IMO the real villains here.

The breeds have been seperate for so long (i understand your reasoning though), perhaps it's better if they are all lumped together so BSL can be fought on a united front.

As for the rest i totally agree.

[chrisjc]

Justin its all speculation on both my behalf and tybrax's but it seems to me its not just about the dogs. John has very sucsessfully on more than one or two times , made the gccc look like the biggest bunch of morons in the country when he out witted them very easily. if you are not aware look at tybrax's website and see for yourself.

Edited April 8, 2010 by chrisjc

[justin19801]

While we quibble Rome burns. AST=APBT=SBT. Get used to it. The world has known this for decades and it will slowly spread Australia-wide. People who see differences in the breeds are only kidding themselves. The good thing is ANKC may now get off it's A** and fight breed discriminatory legislation for all breeds not just theirs, because when BDL starts, as it solves nothing, it only gets worse and worse. Congrats to Chivers for having the guts to stand up for all breeds in this country. We should all be thanking her and Mr Mokomoko. Even if the Qld govt removes the AST from pit bull type, the court decision can be used to label APBTs as ASTs. Ultimately it's about saving harmless family pets from being killed by the likes of the R$PCA who are IMO the real villains here.

The breeds have been seperate for so long (i understand your reasoning though), perhaps it's better if they are all lumped together so BSL can be fought on a united front.

As for the rest i totally agree.

Fighting strains of bothe exist as do SBTs. The fact remains 99.9% of all these breeds/dogs/whatever are simply harmless family pets. While some residual gameness does exist compared to other breeds, fighting lines are genetically so different as to be a breed on their own even though they look the same. These dogs will never be caught by BSL as they are owned by criminals anyway. BSL can only be won by political means and not by arguing which breeds fall under it's net.

[justin19801]

Justin its all speculation on both my behalf and tybrax's but it seems to me its not just about the dogs. John has very sucsessfully on more than one or two times , made the gccc look like the biggest bunch of morons in the country when he out witted them very easily. if you are not aware look at tybrax's website and see for yourself.

Couldn't agree more. Breed Discriminatory Legislation is about controlling and punishing people by killing their pets. APBTs are simply a prism which magnifies people's hates.

[*Bones*]

This was always going to be a bad result. There could be no other outcome. Unfortunately the court got it right.

Everyone involved in the breeding & exhibiting of pure breed dogs knows the AST is the APBT bred to a standard for the conformation & the temperament desired by the the true believers of the breed.

They have been cruising under the radar, until now.

This silly uninformed person has just put redneck crosshairs squarely on the breed. She certainly had bad advice.

I see a bad moon rising. I see trouble on the way.

Well Said.

If this person was arguing that the dog is an AST and should not be banned, why did she argue that the AST and the pitbull were the same breed? Totally uninformed. The dog still remains banned in the GCCC and hundreds of properly registered American Stafforshire Terriers are in jeopardy. The ANKC is certainly not going to argue for unpapered dogs, only papered ones which are registered with them.

What was the point of taking the case to the Supreme Court to argue that although the dog was not a Pitbull, it was the same thing, so also banned

If they spent $500,000 as they said on TV, on the case, it would have been cheaper to move to NSW where the dog was, and not put American Staffordshire Terriers in danger, and risk the danger of the bans being extended

[chrisjc]

whats done is done and i think unless you have walked a mile in their shoes you cant say what you would have done in that situation. putting shit on them isnt going to help the situation now.

[ZBC]

This was always going to be a bad result. There could be no other outcome. Unfortunately the court got it right.

Everyone involved in the breeding & exhibiting of pure breed dogs knows the AST is the APBT bred to a standard for the conformation & the temperament desired by the the true believers of the breed.

They have been cruising under the radar, until now.

This silly uninformed person has just put redneck crosshairs squarely on the breed. She certainly had bad advice.

I see a bad moon rising. I see trouble on the way.

Well Said.

If this person was arguing that the dog is an AST and should not be banned, why did she argue that the AST and the pitbull were the same breed? Totally uninformed. The dog still remains banned in the GCCC and hundreds of properly registered American Stafforshire Terriers are in jeopardy. The ANKC is certainly not going to argue for unpapered dogs, only papered ones which are registered with them.

What was the point of taking the case to the Supreme Court to argue that although the dog was not a Pitbull, it was the same thing, so also banned

If they spent $500,000 as they said on TV, on the case, it would have been cheaper to move to NSW where the dog was, and not put American Staffordshire Terriers in danger, and risk the danger of the bans being extended

Perhaps Ms Chivers argued that the method used and the persons using it and claiming they could identify an APBT from any other breed and especially the dog admittedly most like it,were all false, by showing that nothing unique existed to make identification reliable?

This would be a fair comment, as the GCCC apparently ambushed her team by using the evidence provided ,in a bizarre twist , to the point of damning their own employees and "consultant identifiers" in work they have done for years under the local law,opening themselves to challenges against extant "identifications"!

There would have been no surprise had Ms Chivers based her case on "proving the AST and APBT were the same" Why would she do this, and automatically LOSE her dog??

That would have been totally nonsensical ,in fact ludicrous!

The lady had NO intention of harming any dog or breed, she wanted to get her own dog home where it belonged.

As for moving states, or whatever, it isn't everyone who believes in judging others by some yardstick or proposal that one hasn't experienced either!

Easy to SAY but....?

Edited April 9, 2010 by ZBC

[Diva]

This would be a fair comment, as the GCCC apparently ambushed her team by using the evidence provided ,in a bizarre twist , to the point of damning their own employees and "consultant identifiers" in work they have done for years under the local law,opening themselves to challenges against extant "identifications"!

There would have been no surprise had Ms Chivers based her case on "proving the AST and APBT were the same" Why would she do this, and automatically LOSE her dog??

I don't know why the applicant presented evidence that the APBT and AST were the same breed but according to the judgement she did, via two expert witnesses. The council didn't have to twist anything, nor ambush anyone, the evidence and its logical conclusions seems to have been handed to them gift-wrapped. You can't present something to a court as a matter of fact and then expect it only to be taken into account in the way you want it to be. It seems to been a bizarrely ill-advised tactic on the part of the applicant, whatever their intent.