Lunging At Passers-by When Walking

[macka]

Just a tip - you've got to be thinking "reinforcement" and not "bribery". Think "am I reinforcing this calm behaviour? Or just distracting him?"

Really good point

Give them a chance to choose what to do. Give them enough space to choose correctly. Reward the correct choice.

This makes a lot of sense, thanks.

[Prydenjoy]

If he's really strong and you're worried about a shoulder injury or something in the meantime while you're training him I've heard that black dogs "easy walk" harness is good. I'm not sure about others experience with this but there is a beagle at our dog park that uses one and the owners have told me it was a God send. It is not a training tool as such, just something that might make your life a little more comfortable

[macka]

I actually use an easy walker on my girl as she pulls all the time (and I have been to a trainer and done a loose leash walking program with her but due to what I am sure is my poor handling skills unfortunately it did not work out), unless I use the easy walker which allows both of us to just relax and walk.

However it was a big last resort for me, I really didn't want to use it otherwise as I know it doesn't actually teach her anything.

I'd prefer not to use one on my boy because he actually does walk nicely 90% of the time so I don't want to put an aversive on him which would only be for something he does occasionally. The martingale does give him a correction when he lunges.

Edited April 7, 2010 by macka

[Mas1981]

I actually use an easy walker on my girl as she pulls all the time (and I have been to a trainer and done a loose leash walking program with her but due to what I am sure is my poor handling skills unfortunately it did not work out), unless I use the easy walker which allows both of us to just relax and walk.

However it was a big last resort for me, I really didn't want to use it otherwise as I know it doesn't actually teach her anything.

I'd prefer not to use one on my boy because he actually does walk nicely 90% of the time so I don't want to put an aversive on him which would only be for something he does occasionally. The martingale does give him a correction when he lunges.

I know what you mean, I used a Gentle Leader face harness for ages with Mason, it worked wonderfully until I would try him without it. We have gone right back to basics and I taught him to be around other dogs on a normal collar as the halter annoyed him and he would rub his face in the grass and then his eyes would swell It is best to try correct it without harnesses etc when they are young.

[Prydenjoy]

I know what you mean, I used a Gentle Leader face harness for ages with Mason, it worked wonderfully until I would try him without it.

Interesting, we had a dog that walked perfectly ever after being trained wearing a gentle leader. I guess every dog is different.

[dark angel]

My 6 1/2 month old lab is doing very well with regards to walking on a loose leash. I have him on a martingale collar and a 3-foot leash, and he generally walks on a loose leash either beside me or slightly in front, and when he does get ahead he responds well to a light correction on the martingale.

However, when we pass people on the street, with or without other dogs, he lunges to try and get to them, becomes over excited and, at 25kg+, difficult to control (and he's only going to get bigger!).

Once we get past each other I am able to regain control and continue our walk, and he goes back to walking nicely again.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to teach him to ignore or at least remain calm around other people/dogs on our walks?

He is just trying to say hello but doesn't realise not everyone in the world finds him as interesting as he finds them! I've already frightened a few people who were justifiably unhappy about having a 25kg dog lunging at them. ;)

Thanks

Clicker train him to look at you instead of the other dogs, its taken me a long long time but I have finally managed to get Mason to stop doing this, its awful I hurt my back a few times because he pulls me towards them with such force!

I have also trained my dog to sit and wait until they walk past, does Archer know the wait command?? I used to get Mason to sit, ask him to wait and when he did I gave loads of yummy treats. They must learn the wait command at home though.

My choice would be correct him.Let him know its unnacceptable to do it.You do it with the walking in front.Why not do it when he lunges?

If he is really strong as someone else mentioned change collars for a pinch maybe?

Im not trying to go against the grain ..just my suggestion

[HugUrPup]

Where do I buy a clicker from? I want to try clicker distraction for Miley

[Prydenjoy]

The clicker itself is not used as a distraction

It's used as a marker, to let the dog know that at that moment what they are doing is good, and that a reward is coming.

I can't say where to buy a clicker, I can't even get my hands on one! I have one that I've had for years and am paranoid that some day I'll lose it and wont be able to play shaping games on rainy days

Speak to trainers in your area, vets and pet shops. I'm sure one of them will be able to point you in the right direction. I'd also google and youtube clicker training, there is a LOT of information out there, as well as a few good books. Probably the best book I've read for beginning clicker training is called Click for Joy.

[HugUrPup]

Thanks Jeanne, I will look into the book.

[Mas1981]

Thanks Jeanne, I will look into the book.

I have seen a clicker here at Big W in WA and all the pet shops have them, I would also just google it though as I have seen them on the online pet stores I just cant remember which one's.

[HugUrPup]

cool I'll check ebay

[Aidan]

I want to try clicker distraction for Miley

See post #17

[Black Bronson]

I always train on the basis that a dog works for it's handler and build a relationship with the dog with clear definitions of what is right and wrong. In the process of training a dog which applies to an endless amount of distractions is a "leave it" command which means ignor and move on. When leash training a dog, I find that teaching a "leave it" command applies so easily as there is always some distraction that will set the dog off pulling in some direction or lagging behind with many valid opportunities to use the command and for the dog to learn and understand what is required of him/her.

I don't believe that distracting the dog away from self rewards like lunging at passers by teaches the dog how to deal with that situation reliably or provides the handler with proper control. I like the dog to gradually face the situation head on and learn what I need him/her to do in the circumstanes and reward the appropriate behaviour and punish the wrong behaviour. I like the dog to learn that both good and bad can happen and that I am responsible as the handler to guide the dog to make the correct behavioural choices and to learn that trusting my commands always results in the best outcome.

[Staranais]

I don't believe that distracting the dog away from self rewards like lunging at passers by teaches the dog how to deal with that situation reliably or provides the handler with proper control. I like the dog to gradually face the situation head on and learn what I need him/her to do in the circumstanes and reward the appropriate behaviour and punish the wrong behaviour. I like the dog to learn that both good and bad can happen and that I am responsible as the handler to guide the dog to make the correct behavioural choices and to learn that trusting my commands always results in the best outcome.

I think that's the big question though really, isn't it? Is it "better" to treat this as a pure obedience exercise, with other people simply as just another distraction, and correct the dog for not performing, and hope the dog starts to feel more comfortable in the situation after his behaviour is under control? Or is it "better" to use something like food to change the dog's expectations and emotions about the situation to start with (classical conditioning), and hope that since he feels differently about the situation, he won't feel the need to lunge anymore?

I think both ideas have merits and drawbacks, and have used both in the past.

[Kavik]

I've said it before but one of the main reasons I like using a clicker in these cases is how it changed my mindset (which the dog can tell). Instead of going Oh no, there is a dog coming! I better be ready to correct in case she gets aggro! I can go Awesome! A chance to practice focus games! And give her the chance to give the right response of looking at me instead of the other dog. I find I am much less nervous and stressed and so is my dog.

[Prydenjoy]

This is why I never recommend punishers when trying to get a dog used to being around other dogs in one way or another (in this example it is using fear aggression, but the same association can be made by a friendly dog trying to play):

It's very tricky stuff using punishment to "correct" any kind of aggressing behaviors. Because you never know what baggage you may be attaching, for one thing. For example, your dog begins to posture, to lunge, to growl and stress over an oncoming dog. The handler then ADDS a punisher--pain--to the scenario. But does the dog, when stressing, understand what is causing his discomfort? And what if the dog instead comes to pair the pain with the oncoming dog? It happens all the time. It's not a rarity in any way.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...gaggression.htm

Desensitising the dog through positive reinforcement, by setting it up for success and gradually working on the behavior, is a much safer solution.

[Black Bronson]

I don't believe that distracting the dog away from self rewards like lunging at passers by teaches the dog how to deal with that situation reliably or provides the handler with proper control. I like the dog to gradually face the situation head on and learn what I need him/her to do in the circumstanes and reward the appropriate behaviour and punish the wrong behaviour. I like the dog to learn that both good and bad can happen and that I am responsible as the handler to guide the dog to make the correct behavioural choices and to learn that trusting my commands always results in the best outcome.

I think that's the big question though really, isn't it? Is it "better" to treat this as a pure obedience exercise, with other people simply as just another distraction, and correct the dog for not performing, and hope the dog starts to feel more comfortable in the situation after his behaviour is under control? Or is it "better" to use something like food to change the dog's expectations and emotions about the situation to start with (classical conditioning), and hope that since he feels differently about the situation, he won't feel the need to lunge anymore?

I think both ideas have merits and drawbacks, and have used both in the past.

Yes, I do think both ideas have merit and often depends on the individual dog. I am more thinking from an aggressive lunging stand point which happens often with working breeds that are on the sharp side in temperament. I try to guide dogs of this type to understand a clear message that they are not to react off their own judgement and instill calmness in the situation. I try to suppress the trigger response that activates the lunging as although distraction away from the trigger does help improve the behaviour, the trigger is still there were I have been caught before off guard before with a dog intermittantly lunging out of the blue when I have trained in avoidance routines. Of course it depends on the nature of the dog, but I am confident with a nasty lunger that a head on approach has given me the best results.

[Black Bronson]

I've said it before but one of the main reasons I like using a clicker in these cases is how it changed my mindset (which the dog can tell). Instead of going Oh no, there is a dog coming! I better be ready to correct in case she gets aggro! I can go Awesome! A chance to practice focus games! And give her the chance to give the right response of looking at me instead of the other dog. I find I am much less nervous and stressed and so is my dog.

Oh yes, handler tension which is understandable with a lunging dog to think "oh hell, here comes a dog" in anticipation what your dog is going to do can make the dog worse as he/she picks up on the handler anxiety. I have seen dogs perfect with hubby or vice versa, and with the OH, the dog's a lunging nucklehead and wants to bite everyone When the handler is calm and providing leadership with focus exersices it definitely improves the overall situation for sure. I like this method when starting off with a green dog of little training and does work well.

[Prydenjoy]

Black Bronson, nobody has suggested distraction as a training technique. What has been suggested is counter conditioning, and training alternate behavior (calmness and focus on the owner) using a high rate of reinforcement (which I guess could be misinterperated as distraction). In my case there were times where we did cross Berri's threshold (along footpaths running between two yards with dogs in them, for example) when I used distraction as a last resort until I could get past the situation - It was not a part of the training so much as a way to get through (ideally I shouldn't have been walking up that path, but towards the end of the first week I no longer had to use the distraction because he knew to look at me for reinforcement anyway).

[Black Bronson]

This is why I never recommend punishers when trying to get a dog used to being around other dogs in one way or another (in this example it is using fear aggression, but the same association can be made by a friendly dog trying to play):

It's very tricky stuff using punishment to "correct" any kind of aggressing behaviors. Because you never know what baggage you may be attaching, for one thing. For example, your dog begins to posture, to lunge, to growl and stress over an oncoming dog. The handler then ADDS a punisher--pain--to the scenario. But does the dog, when stressing, understand what is causing his discomfort? And what if the dog instead comes to pair the pain with the oncoming dog? It happens all the time. It's not a rarity in any way.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...gaggression.htm

Desensitising the dog through positive reinforcement, by setting it up for success and gradually working on the behavior, is a much safer solution.

A lot of people using punishers with aggression do it completely wrong where it's not uncommon for the dog to come back up the leash at the handler when in that state of mind. The dog's lost control, the handler's lost control and the situation can easily turn into something far worse and very quickly. You need also I think, to get a feel for the dog and see what it's reactions are, what it's foundation training is and what triggers the behaviour before you can work out which way to approach it. Advising a massive leash correction may not be the right conditions for that particular dog. There is I agree, a better saftey margin in positive reinforcement dealing with aggression, however it may not always corrrect the behaviour and serve to suppress the behaviour which just depends on the dog.