Long Lines

[Staranais]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

I have done it a few times in extreme cases allowing a self correction on a long leash, but is critical to ensure that the dog doesn't gain too much momentum to prevent an injury but enough to provide a good correction. It was an old method used to stop dogs chasing cars, but in this day and age, I would opt for an ecollar in the same situation.

If one wants to correct a dog for being inappropriately predatory, then I would think that this wasn't the most effective way to give a correction, seeing as the dog has already self rewarded by going into prey drive & starting the chase before the correction is issued? In my limited experience, giving a correction just as the dog is orienting on the stimulus is far more effective than giving a correction once the dog is amped up in full prey mode.

Just saying.

[Black Bronson]

With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

A huge achievement!

Is this with dogs she knows or any dogs???.

[Aidan]

What have you got Aidan, GSD, Malinios, Rotty???. I get the picture now using a long leash as a saftey net with a serious dog where I often use a muzzle for the same reason for sensible practice

GSD, you can see her here:

(muzzle and long-line, it's an off-leash area) She is a DDR, I found this video of her stunning grand-sire last night:

I did wonder if we were talking about the same thing, I use the long-line in my classes and when a dog goes over-threshold we try to catch them before they get any momentum and even then I shudder every time!

[Black Bronson]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

I have done it a few times in extreme cases allowing a self correction on a long leash, but is critical to ensure that the dog doesn't gain too much momentum to prevent an injury but enough to provide a good correction. It was an old method used to stop dogs chasing cars, but in this day and age, I would opt for an ecollar in the same situation.

If one wants to correct a dog for being inappropriately predatory, then I would think that this wasn't the most effective way to give a correction, seeing as the dog has already self rewarded by going into prey drive & starting the chase before the correction is issued? In my limited experience, giving a correction just as the dog is orienting on the stimulus is far more effective than giving a correction once the dog is amped up in full prey mode.

Just saying.

The self reward is catching the prey and the dog came to the end of the line before it caught it, in other words the prey attempt failed. A few failures with enough negativity to take the dog out of drive makes the dog rethink it's decisions.

[Aidan]

With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

A huge achievement!

Is this with dogs she knows or any dogs???.

Not necessarily dogs she knows but I am careful in my selection as you can imagine. I have clients with dogs who are good with a broader selection of dogs and even multiple dogs, it depends a lot on temperament.

I think you can get very reliable behaviours under command using corrections but there needs to be a lot of classical conditioning and implicit trust that nothing bad is going to happen to get the dog comfortable emotionally. If a correction is ambiguous or the dog feels that he might get one regardless of his behaviour (external locus of control) then his salivary cortisol levels will remain elevated in those situations, we don't have this issue if we keep any corrections to a minimum and make sure they are unambiguous and that the dog can avoid them easily having learned.

[Staranais]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

I have done it a few times in extreme cases allowing a self correction on a long leash, but is critical to ensure that the dog doesn't gain too much momentum to prevent an injury but enough to provide a good correction. It was an old method used to stop dogs chasing cars, but in this day and age, I would opt for an ecollar in the same situation.

If one wants to correct a dog for being inappropriately predatory, then I would think that this wasn't the most effective way to give a correction, seeing as the dog has already self rewarded by going into prey drive & starting the chase before the correction is issued? In my limited experience, giving a correction just as the dog is orienting on the stimulus is far more effective than giving a correction once the dog is amped up in full prey mode.

Just saying.

The self reward is catching the prey and the dog came to the end of the line before it caught it, in other words the prey attempt failed. A few failures with enough negativity to take the dog out of drive makes the dog rethink it's decisions.

I disagree. It has been my experience that for many high drive dogs, the very act of going into drive is rewarding, even if the drive isn't actually satisfied with a bite. Frustration increases drive.

[Aidan]

Certainly the guys who use e-collars to teach dogs to avoid prey are using the correction at the very beginning of the predatory sequence these days. Same with doing it using +R. There have been experiments that got quick results using a high-level correction through an e-collar further in the sequence. Recovery of the punished response some time in the future is an issue, as is generalisation (animals avoided other things in the environment).

[Black Bronson]

What have you got Aidan, GSD, Malinios, Rotty???. I get the picture now using a long leash as a saftey net with a serious dog where I often use a muzzle for the same reason for sensible practice

GSD, you can see her here:

(muzzle and long-line, it's an off-leash area) She is a DDR, I found this video of her stunning grand-sire last night:

I did wonder if we were talking about the same thing, I use the long-line in my classes and when a dog goes over-threshold we try to catch them before they get any momentum and even then I shudder every time!

Very nice girl Aidan, she's obviously a Von forell breeding with Hassan as her grand dad???. My puppy has a Von Forell dad going back to DDR lines. I will see if Hassan is in his ancestors.

[huski]

What have you got Aidan, GSD, Malinios, Rotty???. I get the picture now using a long leash as a saftey net with a serious dog where I often use a muzzle for the same reason for sensible practice

GSD, you can see her here:

(muzzle and long-line, it's an off-leash area) She is a DDR, I found this video of her stunning grand-sire last night:

I did wonder if we were talking about the same thing, I use the long-line in my classes and when a dog goes over-threshold we try to catch them before they get any momentum and even then I shudder every time!

Sabella is a beautiful GSD Aidan! Exactly the type I would like to own if I had a GSD

[Aidan]

She's a princess, and lots of fun. Lots of work too!

Her father was Asa and her mother a Von Forell bitch but she was actually born in Tassie.

[Black Bronson]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

I have done it a few times in extreme cases allowing a self correction on a long leash, but is critical to ensure that the dog doesn't gain too much momentum to prevent an injury but enough to provide a good correction. It was an old method used to stop dogs chasing cars, but in this day and age, I would opt for an ecollar in the same situation.

If one wants to correct a dog for being inappropriately predatory, then I would think that this wasn't the most effective way to give a correction, seeing as the dog has already self rewarded by going into prey drive & starting the chase before the correction is issued? In my limited experience, giving a correction just as the dog is orienting on the stimulus is far more effective than giving a correction once the dog is amped up in full prey mode.

Just saying.

The self reward is catching the prey and the dog came to the end of the line before it caught it, in other words the prey attempt failed. A few failures with enough negativity to take the dog out of drive makes the dog rethink it's decisions.

I disagree. It has been my experience that for many high drive dogs, the very act of going into drive is rewarding, even if the drive isn't actually satisfied with a bite. Frustration increases drive.

That is more pronounced if the dog has been training in drive, but depending on what someone is trying to teach like the farmer trying to stop his Mali chasing and killing sheep, the long line correction worked perfectly. If you are training a sporting dog then drive suppression that way can effect it's performance elsewhere, but ultimately the reward is the catch, the bite. Bit like slipping the sleeve in bitework to win the sleeve and the ramp up and agitation in drive is to get the sleeve off the decoy in training. Same if you hide the sleeve.........the dog comes charging out for the long bite in full drive and slows up, looks around, looks back at the handler, what's going on, no sleeve Have you seen that done in a Schutzhund demo........quite funny

[Black Bronson]

She's a princess, and lots of fun. Lots of work too!

Her father was Asa and her mother a Von Forell bitch but she was actually born in Tassie.

Asa vom Haus Gebets is our puppy's great grand dad We probably have some more common ancestors in our pedigrees Aidan

I like your "stop" command in the vid, I like to teach a stop which you don't see that often anymore

Edited April 10, 2010 by Black Bronson