Long Lines

[Red Fox]

I've got both the BlackDog 33ft long line and the K9 Pro 15ft grippy line. I like the grippy one ;) The clip is a very solid, the line is light and it's so easy to hold.

The BlackDog lines are nice too, I used to use it a lot when my dog was a puppy but I did end up with some nasty rope burns on a few occasions when it twisted and slid through my hands. I dont have that problem at all with the grippy line - that's not to say it wont injure you if you're not careful though. I made the stupid mistake of standing in a loop of the line a few months back and not realising. When my dog lunged it snapped around my ankle HARD and I ended up with a lovely red burn from the rubber (which then turned into a nasty red scab within a day!!) there for almost a month. Needless to say I watch where I put my feet now! Oh well, at least it was a 'pretty' scab though - it was in the pattern of the rubber

I've wanted one of those grippy leashes since I first saw it at a training workshop last year. *stamps foot*

Oh go on Huski, buy one! You know you want to

[Prydenjoy]

Would a dog like Berri be likely to be terribly bothered by it? He's only 3.5kg, I don't want to spend the money and then have him not want to walk on it. Grippy sounds good ;)

[Erny]

Would a dog like Berri be likely to be terribly bothered by it? He's only 3.5kg, I don't want to spend the money and then have him not want to walk on it. Grippy sounds good ;)

If you mean bothered by the lead dragging? I'd certainly recommend you NOT purchasing any long-line that is porous and that will soak up water. Eg. Webbing material. I don't like working with these in training no matter the size dog - the line becomes very weighty when wet and this makes it cumbersome to handle, and yes, dogs who are slight or sensitive to the sensation of a lead are affected by them.

You would do well to find out the weight of the long-lines, bearing in mind that the longer the line the more weight it contains. For a little dog as yours obviously is, I'd be inclined to go for a long-line that is not likely to be of a material that 'catches' on things such as grasses and so forth. For the littlies, this in itself can mimick the effect/affect of a correction even when one wasn't necessary and have them reluctant to run around with it dragging.

I'm getting some new-style long lines in, made of a synthetic leather (synteck). They are 7 metres in length but I think these too are likely to be a bit too weighty if your main use is to have your dog be able to run around dragging it, with your dog being so small and light of build. I'm not sure how the "grippy" long lines go that Steve sells - he would be the best person to ask about those (as far as weight is concerned). I saw some at one of the trade-stalls at the NDTF Conference in Sydney recently and they were very light, if they are the same as Steve's. These are a possibility.

I have some fibre-tek long-lines as well (7m length). These are "fake leather" if you will. Made of the same material that the buckle/strap fittings are made of in horse blankets (if you happen to be familiar with them). But of course no where near the width. They don't absorb water and are, in the terms of long-lines, reasonably light. But how much it does or doesn't affect your dog depends on leash sensitivity. Feel free to contact me if you want to enquire further, but perhaps check out Steve's (K9 Force's) "grippy" long lines first as they might well be your better option.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Erny

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks Erny, I'll think more about whether we actually need a long line and if so I'll contact you and Steve and work out which would be better for Berri. I think a long line with a harness would be a good idea, as Berri walks on a loose leash and as soon as there's any tension he'll turn and come back to me. A harness would make it clear to him that it is a different "exercise" and different rules apply. I have a cat harness that I used to use on him but don't like it much, I had a rogz harness that I used on Montie (the harness and the dog are both with mum now) which I really really liked, but they don't stock them here. So I guess I'd need a new harness too - The ones at the pet shop here are too bulky though.

[Kavik]

Would a dog like Berri be likely to be terribly bothered by it? He's only 3.5kg, I don't want to spend the money and then have him not want to walk on it. Grippy sounds good

If you mean bothered by the lead dragging? I'd certainly recommend you NOT purchasing any long-line that is porous and that will soak up water. Eg. Webbing material. I don't like working with these in training no matter the size dog - the line becomes very weighty when wet and this makes it cumbersome to handle, and yes, dogs who are slight or sensitive to the sensation of a lead are affected by them.

You would do well to find out the weight of the long-lines, bearing in mind that the longer the line the more weight it contains. For a little dog as yours obviously is, I'd be inclined to go for a long-line that is not likely to be of a material that 'catches' on things such as grasses and so forth. For the littlies, this in itself can mimick the effect/affect of a correction even when one wasn't necessary and have them reluctant to run around with it dragging.

I'm getting some new-style long lines in, made of a synthetic leather (synteck). They are 7 metres in length but I think these too are likely to be a bit too weighty if your main use is to have your dog be able to run around dragging it, with your dog being so small and light of build. I'm not sure how the "grippy" long lines go that Steve sells - he would be the best person to ask about those (as far as weight is concerned). I saw some at one of the trade-stalls at the NDTF Conference in Sydney recently and they were very light, if they are the same as Steve's. These are a possibility.

I have some fibre-tek long-lines as well (7m length). These are "fake leather" if you will. Made of the same material that the buckle/strap fittings are made of in horse blankets (if you happen to be familiar with them). But of course no where near the width. They don't absorb water and are, in the terms of long-lines, reasonably light. But how much it does or doesn't affect your dog depends on leash sensitivity. Feel free to contact me if you want to enquire further, but perhaps check out Steve's (K9 Force's) "grippy" long lines first as they might well be your better option.

I have a fibre-tek one from NDTF

[Red Fox]

Would a dog like Berri be likely to be terribly bothered by it? He's only 3.5kg, I don't want to spend the money and then have him not want to walk on it. Grippy sounds good

The grippy lines that K9 Pro sells are really quite light but the clips are heavy duty brass and might be a little heavy for him. I'm not sure if they come with a smaller/lighter clip but I'm sure Steve could tell you that if you asked.

BlackDog will custom make orders too so that might be another option. That way you could chose the length, width and clip which is suitable for your dog.

If it's any help to you I just chucked my 15ft grippy K9 Pro line on the scales and it weighed in at 238g

[Prydenjoy]

He's pretty tough, I think with a proper harness he'd be ok with a slightly heavier clip, not a massive one though

[Black Bronson]

Apart from tracking, you can use them for recalls or for a bit more freedom in areas where a failed recall might put the dog at risk. One of my dogs isn't good with other dogs and if we went "over threshold" a recall would have a much lower probability so she drags a long line when we're out.

The idea is that you don't "use" the line. It is just there for back-up. So you would start in a lower-distraction environment and work on your recalls, stops, heeling or whatever control behaviours you use then add distractions, setting your dog up for success. I very rarely secure my grip on the long line, I would cue a recall or stop before I needed to use the line about 95% of the time.

A tip for those who want to use one, don't try and keep paying it out and coiling it up. Just let it drag on the ground, let it slide freely in one open hand. If you need to use it to stop or bring back your dog, grab it with both hands. A harness makes life easier as the line is less inclined to get caught under the legs.

Hi Aidan,

Long line training was a concept launched by William Koehler in the late 50's and was used to set dogs up for failure in distraction to self correct reaching the end of the line primarily. The original use of the long line was not for a security back up but a training tool unless their is another purpose that I am unfamiliar with??? Out of interest, have you tried exceeding your dog's threshold with the long line to self correct in pursuit of another dog with a suspect recall???.

[Aidan]

The original use of the long line was not for a security back up but a training tool unless their is another purpose that I am unfamiliar with???

The original use was for tracking. The use of a 10m line for Koehler-style training carries an unacceptable risk of injury.

Out of interest, have you tried exceeding your dog's threshold with the long line to self correct in pursuit of another dog with a suspect recall???.

No. The assumption would be that she would learn not to go into full defence drive around other dogs through this correction, which is unlikely. Given that she is physically restrained by the leash (she does not need to learn this through strong corrections), the only benefit you might hope for is that if she did learn not to aggress towards other dogs that this might generalise to off-leash conditions. The probability of this is almost nil.

If I thought there would be merit in using corrections to address this issue I would use an e-collar where equipment is more easily removed as a discriminating stimulus.

I should stress that she does have an outstanding recall. I have called her away when she has been well over threshold in the past without the use of corrections. I also recall her off live prey. It is a matter of probabilities.

[Black Bronson]

The original use of the long line was not for a security back up but a training tool unless their is another purpose that I am unfamiliar with???

The original use was for tracking. The use of a 10m line for Koehler-style training carries an unacceptable risk of injury.

Out of interest, have you tried exceeding your dog's threshold with the long line to self correct in pursuit of another dog with a suspect recall???.

No. The assumption would be that she would learn not to go into full defence drive around other dogs through this correction, which is unlikely. Given that she is physically restrained by the leash (she does not need to learn this through strong corrections), the only benefit you might hope for is that if she did learn not to aggress towards other dogs that this might generalise to off-leash conditions. The probability of this is almost nil.

If I thought there would be merit in using corrections to address this issue I would use an e-collar where equipment is more easily removed as a discriminating stimulus.

I should stress that she does have an outstanding recall. I have called her away when she has been well over threshold in the past without the use of corrections. I also recall her off live prey. It is a matter of probabilities.

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

[Prydenjoy]

I've had dogs on a chain before, they knew when the chain was off they could run off - The fact that they'd "corrected" themselves by running towards the end of the chain in the past didn't stop them running off when the chain was off because the consequence was directly related to them having that chain on. I imagine it would be much the same with the long lead, the dog realised that the line is what is CAUSING the correction, lead off = dog safe (and that is proven to the dog when it tries to run off and there is nothing to stop it). However, with consistent training, just using the lead as a back up, with plenty of reinforcement after every recall, the dog will learn that coming is in its own best interests, so when the lead is eventually taken off the dog sticks with the same habits that were reinforced when it was on.

[Black Bronson]

I've had dogs on a chain before, they knew when the chain was off they could run off - The fact that they'd "corrected" themselves by running towards the end of the chain in the past didn't stop them running off when the chain was off because the consequence was directly related to them having that chain on. I imagine it would be much the same with the long lead, the dog realised that the line is what is CAUSING the correction, lead off = dog safe (and that is proven to the dog when it tries to run off and there is nothing to stop it). However, with consistent training, just using the lead as a back up, with plenty of reinforcement after every recall, the dog will learn that coming is in its own best interests, so when the lead is eventually taken off the dog sticks with the same habits that were reinforced when it was on.

That happens with the chain off because the idea is to reinforce the corrected behaviour which is more important than the correction itself. Whipping a dog around by the neck on a choker teaches fear and avoidance. The essence of choker chain training is to teach the dog that your guidence is essential for his/her pleasure. Many people incorrectly use a choker as a punishment system for naughty dogs which is not what it's about.

[Staranais]

I've had dogs on a chain before, they knew when the chain was off they could run off - The fact that they'd "corrected" themselves by running towards the end of the chain in the past didn't stop them running off when the chain was off because the consequence was directly related to them having that chain on. I imagine it would be much the same with the long lead, the dog realised that the line is what is CAUSING the correction, lead off = dog safe (and that is proven to the dog when it tries to run off and there is nothing to stop it). However, with consistent training, just using the lead as a back up, with plenty of reinforcement after every recall, the dog will learn that coming is in its own best interests, so when the lead is eventually taken off the dog sticks with the same habits that were reinforced when it was on.

That happens with the chain off because the idea is to reinforce the corrected behaviour which is more important than the correction itself. Whipping a dog around by the neck on a choker teaches fear and avoidance. The essence of choker chain training is to teach the dog that your guidence is essential for his/her pleasure. Many people incorrectly use a choker as a punishment system for naughty dogs which is not what it's about.

I've used the long line as a teaching tool before, Koelher style, and it worked fine. But my current girl just wore it as a pup as a safety device while I worked on her recall using positive means. I never even picked it up, just tamped it with my foot when necessary. I'd say she has a 90% recall now, we're still working on getting it totally reliable around the huge distractions (well, she is a teenager!) Lots of ways to skin a cat, or use a long line.

Our tracking line is totally different though? The long line is far lighter & far longer, so she hardly knows she's wearing it. I don't think I'd like to track her on the long line, would be ouch on my hands!

[Aidan]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

[Staranais]

With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

A huge achievement!

[Aidan]

Thanks Staranais, I can't begin to express how good it felt. The danger there is that I will want another reactive dog to chase the thrill

[Kavik]

Thanks Staranais, I can't begin to express how good it felt. The danger there is that I will want another reactive dog to chase the thrill

You want to borrow mine?

10 year old Kelpie X - enough of a challenge for you

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks Staranais, I can't begin to express how good it felt. The danger there is that I will want another reactive dog to chase the thrill

I'll send Berri express post on Monday

[J.H.M]

another one here for the K9 rubber grib long line I have the 10m one its really good everyone needs to have one of these

[Black Bronson]

I respect your theory Aidan, but I am interested to know why you feel such a correction is unlikely to produce a result when you haven't tried it to confirm your assumption???.

Are we talking about letting a dog go to the end of a long-line for a "self-correction" while running towards another dog with aggressive intent?

For far too many reasons I would not attempt that. It isn't safe, it isn't responsible (to either dog), and it isn't good training. It wouldn't even be good Koehler method training.

I have used corrections. I don't live in a vaccuum. I had a practical knowledge before a theoretical knowledge With my training I'm not just aiming to be able to walk a dog-aggressive dog past another dog, I have my own dog walking off-leash with other dogs, free to make her own decisions and not under command to do anything specific preventing her from aggression.

We were attacked by two dogs recently, she ignored them until she absolutely had to defend herself then she did what she had to do then let it go and we walked off as if nothing had happened. This is a bitch from hard, working lines and in the past she has attacked legs, belly and throat (inhibited bites, but death threats all the same). It takes a lot of positive experiences to turn that around, we're not just talking about overt behaviours but also affective behaviours, emotions, brain chemicals, nervous system activity etc

I didn't say that the correction you described wouldn't work (nor am I sure we were talking about the same thing?), but that the probability was low. I don't need to correct her for reaching the end of the line to teach her to come back, I have taught her to come back without doing that. I have used (very judiciously) some collar pops in that process, and they were enough.

I have done it a few times in extreme cases allowing a self correction on a long leash, but is critical to ensure that the dog doesn't gain too much momentum to prevent an injury but enough to provide a good correction. It was an old method used to stop dogs chasing cars, but in this day and age, I would opt for an ecollar in the same situation.

What have you got Aidan, GSD, Malinios, Rotty???. I get the picture now using a long leash as a saftey net with a serious dog where I often use a muzzle for the same reason for sensible practice