Luxating Patellas

[Cosmolo]

There is a chance Gilbert may have a luxating patella- seeing vet this week.

I know very little about luxating patellas as i have always had big dogs. I would like to hear stories- particularly when the dog was diagnosed and how it was treated- from those who have experienced it with their dogs.

Thanks in advance

[poodlefan]

I've had two dogs with luxating patellas. One was operated on. One wasn't.

The first thing I'd say is that a loose patella in a pup shouldn't be immediate cause for concern. Increased muscle bulk that comes with age can resolve the problem. That happened with one of mine.

The grade of the luxation is important. My oldest boy had one patella repaired when he was about 14 months. It hasn't given him any trouble since and he is now 12.

What does Gilbert's breeder say about it?

[Trisven13]

What Poodlefan says.

We have a dog in care atm with a low grade luxating patella who will be rehomed as it is unlikely to ever cause him more of a problem then he currently has. We have pts others who had a more severe grade patella problem and the group didn't have the funds to repair.

ETA - it is why every small dog we rescue gets taken for a little run to see if it hops or skips. If it does then it goes to the vet for a check of it before we decide to rescue.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Trisven13

[stormie]

Yep what others have said. We had a JRT that had two loose patella's. She's do a couple of skips when she ran but it never caused her any pain at any time of her life. I've seen others though, where it is quite painful and surgery is really the only option.

So I think it depends on the severity and whether the dog feels any pain or discomfort.

[puggy_puggy]

Depends on the grade and if they hop/skip as to whether I would choose to have surgery performed.

Keeping the dog skinny and using joint supplements help. Also building up the muscles can also help.

[Jed]

Talk to the breeder.

If I had a dollar for every Cav misdiagnosed with LP, I'd be driving around in a Bentley.

As Cavs grow, they sometimes go a bit "bum high", and they can look as if their patellas are a bit loose, so vets misdiagnose patellas, and sometimes, the leg will swing in and out a bit. Have to tell owners not to rush in, just wait for a while and see.

Which is why I would talk to the breeder. I know SFA about JRT, but pups do funny things as they grow.

I've forgotten how old Gilbert is, but I wouldn't rush into anything, because he is still a pup. I'd want 2 vet opinions, one from a vet very familiar with the breed, and maybe the opinion of a GOOD chiropractor as well.

Other option is he may have an injury. Depends on what the symptoms are. Sometimes they limp, sometimes they skip. But sometimes they do both these things when they have injured themselves.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Jed

[tlc]

Cosmolo, fingers crossed for a good outcome for Gilbert!!

Does a little skip or jump in a dogs leg (back) always mean a luxating patella?? My girl Tully who is nearly 3 had a little skip when she is running slow, and it is very noticable probly every 5 steps she skips one. But when she runs fast like chasing a ball etc she never skips at all. She has never had a limp and never ever seems like she has been in pain. I asked the vet about it and the vet checked her skipping leg and said every thing felt fine. Can they tell just by feeling or do they have to do an xray for a definate diagnosis? She has always done the little skip and it always seems the same. She is a huge jumper, can and will jump big heights from a standing start and she runs like an elephant,very heavy on her feet but also very fast. If it is a luxating patella, can they live with it if it doesn't bother them? Tully is due to go to the vet again in July so will get her rechecked. Is there anything I should be avoiding her doing if it is this? She is a bugger for doing very sharp turns when she his playing with the other dogs and also when she is chasing the ball. She is however very fit and active and has good muscle tone on her whole body.

[Jed]

tlc, a "good" vet can tell by manipulation without an x-ray. Some dogs without LP do skip.

The kneecap is a small bone at the front of the stifle joint. A ligament runs across the top of it from top to bottom. In the area where the ligament runs is a groove, and the ligament slots into this. Usually luxating patellas are medially luxating, and mostly the groove is not deep enough to hold the ligament in place. If the patellas are ok, there is no luxation. All the vet has to do, mostly, is try to move the leg sideways around the stifle joint -if it moves, the patellas are luxated, if not, they are ok.

I get my dogs checked (and all the pups checked) and my vet can tell by feeling. I am sure yours can too.

I have noticed that a lot of little dogs, mini foxies, JRT etc do skip a step occasionally, and they have good patellas. Sometimes wonder if it is a habit. Of course, it can also be a sign of LP, so wise to have it checked.

[Cosmolo]

I am waiting to get a proper diagnosis from the vet before asking the breeders opinion which we will definitely do- i just don't want to worry her when it may be as simple as a strain or something.

Jed, Gilbert is only 13 weeks old so i realise there is an awful lot of development left to do. I am just paranoid about having another dog with joint issues as we already have one with HD and ED. Great explanation too- thank you.

[tlc]

Thanks Jed, that explains it well. I have googled a few websites about LP's but some of the explinations are hard to make sense of. Will definatley get the vet to have another look next time I go. You may be right in this case about the habit, to me thats what it seems like, as when she is running fast there is no limp or hint of a skip at all. My dad has a little Maltese cross and he does it all the time too and he is about 6 now and the vet said the same thing to them about it being nothing to worry about. But I do worry and I'm constantly watching Tully to see if it changes at all.

[tlc]

Cosmolo, why do you think Gilbert has a LP, what signs has he displayed?

[poodlefan]

I have noticed that a lot of little dogs, mini foxies, JRT etc do skip a step occasionally, and they have good patellas. Sometimes wonder if it is a habit. Of course, it can also be a sign of LP, so wise to have it checked.

Can be a sign of hip issues too Jed and there is HD in some of those breeds.

[Cosmolo]

Limping, holding leg up completely, then is fine- then limping again. He has been rested and on anti inflams since Thursday and seems to be improving but we will be seeing our regular vet maybe tomorrow i think.

It is very hard to keep a 13 week old JRT quiet..!!!

[pie]

Cosmolo - when Kyzer was about 6 months old he had a couple of instances where he would stand from a drop and his back leg wouldn't straighten, I have not seen him do it once since he matured and he had a good going over by a specialist vet when he was about 18 months old who said he was sound and healthy.

At the time the general consensus was that as his bones/ ligaments/ muscles etc were growing they were a bit loose, but it came good, hopefully Gilbert's do too

I feel your pain in regards to keeping a busy terrier puppy quiet

[Erny]

I'm going to muse a bit here. "Muse" because I don't really know what I'm talking about (expertise wise, I mean).

When Mandela was a pup (3 days into my ownership) he developed Carpel Laxity Syndrome (front legs). It became quite severe before it got better. What's this got to do with Gilbert, you might ask?

Carpel Laxity is the result of a growth spurt, where the bones grow faster than the ligaments can keep up with. The ligaments pulling against the bone and preventing them from growing out straight.

I wonder if, for Gilbert, there's a little bit of the same or similar happening - ie that he's had a growth spurt but his ligament hasn't yet had the time to stretch/grow at the same rate. And as a consequence of the ligament being tighter than it presently ought to be, it might be slipping OR it might just be a bit uncomfortable.

In Mandela's case (which is different to yours, Cosmolo .... I acknowledge - but HOW different, I'm not sure) I was encouraged to exercise him to help the ligament to strengthen and stretch. I also had to watch his weight gain and keep down his food a bit, as for him that only served to send him into a growth spurt. So, it was a fine balance. We wanted him to grow but at the same time we didn't want him to grow. We just had to try to steady that down a bit.

I know this condition is not common in small dogs, but I wonder if Gilbert's symptom bears a link to what I'm thinking ???

I may be way off base - as I said, this is about nothing I've read and is purely my own thoughts on possibilities.

By the way, Cosmolo, Mandela's front legs straightened out nicely and we didn't need to administer drugs of any kind.

I took Mandela to see Charles Kuntz.

[Simply Grand]

Cosmolo, from when Saxon was about 4 months til he was about 6.5 months his rear right leg would sometimes seem to lock up - he didn't seem to be able to move it at all and would drag it if he tried to keep walking. I would just hold him still for a minute or so and rub his leg a bit, then it would be fine and he'd be off running again.

I took him to the vet when it first started happening and he suspected LP from feeling the leg and moving it sideways like Jed said, but as it wasn't locking up that often (maybe once a week) and didn't seem to cause pain, we decided to just watch that it didn't get any worse or become painful, and x-ray him when he got desexed.

The x-ray showed everything looked fine (kneecap was in place at the time), so LP was the most likely explanation, and the vet said that surgery may be required. The x-ray also showed that his growth plates hadn't fused though so he still had growing to do (as you would expect at 6 months). Anyway, since a couple of weeks after the x-ray was taken, it has stopped happening and at 9 months now he seems to be fine. I think like PF said, as he grew it fixed itself. Hopefully the same will happen with Gilbert!

[Kelpie-i]

Cosmolo I have no info to give you as I know nothing about LP but I do hope your little one is fine and it's nothing more than a silly sprain. I can just imaging how difficult it must be to keep a 13 week old JRT still. Good luck with the prognosis.

[Jed]

I hope the dry food nazis aren't reading this - but Billinghurst and quite a few other studies suggest that feeding a BARF diet or raw means there is far less chance of LP or HD developing. I do feed raw, all my dogs have excellent patellas. I sold one years ago which had LP - he weighed 16kg which didn't help, but I had the op done, and I sat in. The groove in his kneecap was too shallow, which allowed the patella to medially luxate. The vet deepened the groove he is 8 now, no problem. Neither parent had a a problem (sire is 12 now, and heart clear)(mother died at 13, no problem), no one else in the family had a problem either.

Made me consider that maybe I was breeding dogs with shallow grooves, but because the pups grew at a steady rate, and the raw developed the connective tissue well, the shallow grooves were never a problem, because the ligament stayed in place, and the ligaments, and muscles all helped tie the whole thing together so the patella never had a chance to luxate.

I recently was talking to an older, highly respected cav breeder, who told me my young Biafran Cav was all good, as growing slowly and not being overweight causes no problems. He's had 2 minor pup awards from 2 shows, but he is quite skinny, so he's having a ring holiday.

That was a serious statement from years of experience with very good lines and dogs. I took it on board, and I added it to my knowledge of patellas and raw.

And I do think raw, if people can manage it, does help as the pups grow. Billinghurst says pups which don't have a problem as pups can develop it later via incorrect nutrition, and I agree with this, from experience. Mine are all 100% at the 8 week check, and I do tend to be the food Nazi with the pups I sell.

Trouble is, hard evidence is difficult to come by. My 13 year old Cav had a Gr 1 murmur (MVD) at 8, progressed to Gr 2 recently, which is a fairly long time between grades. She is not on medication, not suffering, but has always been fed raw. Story is that raw is very beneficial for MVD. I believe it now, the number of Cavs who develop a Gr 1 at 8, and have passed on at 10 is the majority

Maybe I'm just lucky too!

Cos, I wouldn't worry too much. I think he has hurt himself, or it is a growth stage. Breeders are very careful, and although he can have LP even if his parents don't, good breeders tend to know what's in the lines.

I'd still talk to the breeder. I have discussed some health issues with mine, and she goes "Oh what rot, just rubbish" very sternly. She's always been right (Which is lucky, I'd be too scared to tell her if she was wrong!!)

Edited April 6, 2010 by Jed

[WoofnHoof]

My chi's LP improved with a better diet although it's not all raw it's more raw and higher quality other stuff than he used to get he's 6 now and hasn't skipped for a couple of years now.

[gemstone]

My new rescue dog is booked for LP surgery tomorrow

Since I've only had her a few weeks the rescue people very kindly referred me to their vet for a rescue discount.

She is 3.5 year old JR x and lifts her leg constantly even after a few paces.

The vet I saw initially didnt tell me what grade it was just that we should do it sooner rather than later and risk arthritis

Good luck to all the LP dogs!!