Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[huski]

'huski' date='5th Apr 2010 - 02:09 PM' post='4439615']

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog???

And how many scent hounds did you see working in competition obedience back then? How many have you trained to high levels of reliability?

Can you use food and clickers in the ring between exercises???. Most world level Schutzhund trainers don't use clickers and more train with E Collars on the quiet. The point is, the less devices you need to rely upon to motivate working potential, the better the dogs training foundation for reliability.

So Uta Bindels who is a world champion and winner of prestigious Schutzhund and IPO comps has unreliable dogs who lack motivation in their work?

[OSoSwift]

Even more off topic - the whips for the horses are used as a cue, not to whip them into submission. The are tapped in certain places to elicit certain reponses that have previously been trained. I doubt you would get the level of work you do from those horses if they were whipped into submission.

I use a clicker because I can mark much more precisely with a clicker than I can with a marker word. I may want to clicker the slight movement of a certain paw for example, much easier to get the timing right with a clicker.

Yes you can train some dogs with praise with/or without a check chain. Yes you can train some dogs with food/toy/ clicker and I guees theere would even be the odd dog out their that would pick up what you wanted if it got a kick up the bun every time it did something wrong. NOT ALL DOGS ARE THE SAME, NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE THE SAME. Whatever works for the dog/handler combination is the right one as long as the dog is not bullied or hurt in any way. If that is using a check chain fine, if it is using a clicker and food fine.

There is no right and wrong, the only success I go by is how my dog is working for me at any given time.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[gsdog2]

'huski' date='5th Apr 2010 - 02:09 PM' post='4439615']

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog???

And how many scent hounds did you see working in competition obedience back then? How many have you trained to high levels of reliability?

Can you use food and clickers in the ring between exercises???. Most world level Schutzhund trainers don't use clickers and more train with E Collars on the quiet. The point is, the less devices you need to rely upon to motivate working potential, the better the dogs training foundation for reliability.

So Uta Bindels who is a world champion and winner of prestigious Schutzhund and IPO comps has unreliable dogs who lack motivation in their work?

I'm interested in your answer to this too Longcoat

I have to say I have trialed in the 70's too (now I'm giving my age away ) and yes there were "some" beautifully trained dogs then, but I prefer the drive and enthusiasm I see in the trial rings of today

[Prydenjoy]

Jeanne, I know, but as Dagboy will tell you I'm a stubborn, strong willed & determined old bag .

Good for you, I have an active toddler who has been missing out on far too much of my attention while I've been wasting my time talking to deaf ears, so I quit!

[Longcoat]

:rofl: Sorry Longcoat but you just put your foot in it!!!!

Clickers.........another device , what's wrong with markers and release words.......same thing, same concept without the need of yet another device not permitted in the ring. Getting a dog used to working with implements not permitted in trials makes for more work. Why use a clicker when you have a voice to do the same thing???

You can only use marker words in the ring in between exercises, you can't use them when you are actually competing, can you?

Personally I use a marker and release word myself but each to their own, you have highly successful people like Uta Bindels who use clickers and get great results in (Schutzhund) competition, obviously it works for them

Can you use food and clickers in the ring between exercises???. Most world level Schutzhund trainers don't use clickers and more train with E Collars on the quiet. The point is, the less devices you need to rely upon to motivate working potential, the better the dogs training foundation for reliability.

E Collars are negative reinforcement though............what would the Delta mob think of that :D

[Staranais]

My girl does "round the house" obedience such as drops, stays, off leash walking, etc, for just praise/correction. I refuse to shovel treats into her for easy, routine requests. It's just not necessary.

But I can't imagine training her for her SAR work with no extrinsic rewards. I have never seen, or heard, of a SAR dog working for praise alone. All our dogs get a huge play and praise reward when they find the victim or end of the trail (except for the few dogs who prefer, and get given, food and praise instead). We reward because we want them working extremely enthusiastically for long periods of time. It's not sufficient to have a dog working half heartedly, going through the search routine just because the handler says so. We want dogs who live to work, and that requires huge rewards.

It's the same with all the schutzhund dogs I've seen - all good schutzhund dogs I've seen work in either prey or food drive in the obedience phase (and food drive in the tracking phase). They do not work just to avoid correction, or gain praise.

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

[Longcoat]

It's funny because up until about 4 years ago I would have been on Angelsun's "side" & said that you couldn't get reliability out of a dog except with a check chain & certainly not using food, just goes to show how much has changed .

A few have tried to train police and security K9's with food and positive reinforcement and what suffered was reliablity. Bit different when aggression is involved with dogs in fighting drive disobeying a command than a dog muffing up a trick routine or an agility exercise which doesn't quite have the same potential consequence when reliability is needed at it's most. It depends upon the level of reliability you need from the dog.

[huski]

Longcoat are you saying that police and security dogs are only trained with praise and corrections or are not ever trained with positive reinforcement?

No one here is arguing that punishment or corrections don't have their place. I've not heard of a police dog anywhere in the world trained successfully with purely positive training, but that's not what we're talking about.

Edited April 5, 2010 by huski

[huski]

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

Agreed

[bedazzledx2]

Yeah full trial...not just the bite work.

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

Agreed

[Longcoat]

My girl does "round the house" obedience such as drops, stays, off leash walking, etc, for just praise/correction. I refuse to shovel treats into her for easy, routine requests. It's just not necessary.

But I can't imagine training her for her SAR work with no extrinsic rewards. I have never seen, or heard, of a SAR dog working for praise alone. All our dogs get a huge play and praise reward when they find the victim or end of the trail (except for the few dogs who prefer, and get given, food and praise instead). We reward because we want them working extremely enthusiastically for long periods of time. It's not sufficient to have a dog working half heartedly, going through the search routine just because the handler says so. We want dogs who live to work, and that requires huge rewards.

It's the same with all the schutzhund dogs I've seen - all good schutzhund dogs I've seen work in either prey or food drive in the obedience phase (and food drive in the tracking phase). They do not work just to avoid correction, or gain praise.

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point. The obedience phase of Schutzhund is made of up several activities using different drives and as we mentioned previously, you can't use any motivators in a trail except voice and praise. Anything used in training has to be weaned off. Generally you take the dog from the crate onto the field and can't use motivating devices on the day. The point I am making is that we have some great training dogs, super performers PROVIDING at the end of each routine some food is shoved in it's mouth or a toy is pulled out from the pocket. Without those motivators on the field the dog's mess up the routines and fail their trials.......happens all the time. The transformation between actively using motivators and not using them in trials presents the difficulty. A great faultless routine in training doesn't gain a title unless the dog can work to an alternative reward.

[Aidan]

Food/toy reward is a training tool that must be ultimately replaced with a reward system permitted on the field. In Schutzhund, you cannot have anything on the field or use anything other than verbal praise and a pat at the end of a routine. No food hidden in pockets, hands drenched in meaty smells etc tec.

Just be careful not to confuse reinforcers with antecedents.

A reinforcer increases the likelihood of a behaviour. An antecedent predicts it. If food is not an antecedent then it isn't required to produce the behavioural response.

In plain english, just because you used food while training the response - that doesn't mean that you will always need food. You can still use other reinforcers, and you can still use schedules of reinforcement. If you need to hide food in your pocket, then you have conditioned food to be an antecedent.

[Aidan]

A few have tried to train police and security K9's with food and positive reinforcement and what suffered was reliablity.

That is not universally true. Selecting a few non-specific examples does not the truth reveal.

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that positive reinforcement will produce extraordinarily reliable behaviours over thousands upon thousands of trials. Punishment does not produce the same level of reliability in the long-term.

Practical considerations, not ultimate reliability, dictate the use of +P and -R in the field.

[Longcoat]

Food/toy reward is a training tool that must be ultimately replaced with a reward system permitted on the field. In Schutzhund, you cannot have anything on the field or use anything other than verbal praise and a pat at the end of a routine. No food hidden in pockets, hands drenched in meaty smells etc tec.

Just be careful not to confuse reinforcers with antecedents.

A reinforcer increases the likelihood of a behaviour. An antecedent predicts it. If food is not an antecedent then it isn't required to produce the behavioural response.

In plain english, just because you used food while training the response - that doesn't mean that you will always need food. You can still use other reinforcers, and you can still use schedules of reinforcement. If you need to hide food in your pocket, then you have conditioned food to be an antecedent.

That's exactly what is happening with some teams having difficulty with routines under trial rules without active food/toy motivation. Thanks Aidan, it's now making sense why

[Aidan]

A dog trained on praise reward will work anytime, anywhere, any place. How do you think yesterday's dogs worked before positive reinforcement trends evolved???

Selection played a very large part. Well bred dogs who perform the tasks that they are bred to perform are getting a TON of reinforcement. And if they didn't perform, they didn't get to hang around.

[Staranais]

My girl does "round the house" obedience such as drops, stays, off leash walking, etc, for just praise/correction. I refuse to shovel treats into her for easy, routine requests. It's just not necessary.

But I can't imagine training her for her SAR work with no extrinsic rewards. I have never seen, or heard, of a SAR dog working for praise alone. All our dogs get a huge play and praise reward when they find the victim or end of the trail (except for the few dogs who prefer, and get given, food and praise instead). We reward because we want them working extremely enthusiastically for long periods of time. It's not sufficient to have a dog working half heartedly, going through the search routine just because the handler says so. We want dogs who live to work, and that requires huge rewards.

It's the same with all the schutzhund dogs I've seen - all good schutzhund dogs I've seen work in either prey or food drive in the obedience phase (and food drive in the tracking phase). They do not work just to avoid correction, or gain praise.

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point.

Yes, the rest are trained with toys. None are trained with praise/correction alone.

[Longcoat]

A few have tried to train police and security K9's with food and positive reinforcement and what suffered was reliablity.

That is not universally true. Selecting a few non-specific examples does not the truth reveal.

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that positive reinforcement will produce extraordinarily reliable behaviours over thousands upon thousands of trials. Punishment does not produce the same level of reliability in the long-term.

Practical considerations, not ultimate reliability, dictate the use of +P and -R in the field.

What some of the K9 trainers have told me Aidan, is that some behaviours cannot be corrected effectively with positive reinforcement and punishment in those circumstances creates a better result???.

[Aidan]

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience.

Depends on the reinforcement history and how well the response has been conditioned. I'm not 'purely positive', but the value of an individual reinforcement v level of distraction becomes a non-issue even at my level of expertise.

It certainly does depend upon reinforcement history but in the reliability crunch, there will be some distraction somewhere greater than the reward on offer and the dog will bolt, or disobey especially off leash.

Diva was right, it is not that the distraction is "greater than the reward on offer" but that the dog is not conditioned, through it's reinforcement history, to respond in that environment. Believe it or not, it is not a competition between reward and distraction (unless we are discussing bribery). Otherwise how would you explain dogs who recall off live prey, not knowing whether there is a reward available or not?

[Longcoat]

My girl does "round the house" obedience such as drops, stays, off leash walking, etc, for just praise/correction. I refuse to shovel treats into her for easy, routine requests. It's just not necessary.

But I can't imagine training her for her SAR work with no extrinsic rewards. I have never seen, or heard, of a SAR dog working for praise alone. All our dogs get a huge play and praise reward when they find the victim or end of the trail (except for the few dogs who prefer, and get given, food and praise instead). We reward because we want them working extremely enthusiastically for long periods of time. It's not sufficient to have a dog working half heartedly, going through the search routine just because the handler says so. We want dogs who live to work, and that requires huge rewards.

It's the same with all the schutzhund dogs I've seen - all good schutzhund dogs I've seen work in either prey or food drive in the obedience phase (and food drive in the tracking phase). They do not work just to avoid correction, or gain praise.

I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point.

Yes, the rest are trained with toys. None are trained with praise/correction alone.

William Koehler's were................how did he manage that???

[Aidan]

I've not heard of a police dog anywhere in the world trained successfully with purely positive training, but that's not what we're talking about.

I guess it depends on your definition, but Steve White was doing what I would consider to be purely positive training.