Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[Prydenjoy]

I dont think there has been a person yet that has said that they fully agree with their regime or one that has said they go to a Delta class.

I did - Like I said, I can't speak for other Delta instructors in other places, or even what information is given out through the course (because I haven't done it), but I can highly recommend the Delta trainer that teaches PPS here. She's wonderful, though I didn't agree with EVERYTHING she said in PPS, but I don't think any two trainers would ever agree with EVERYTHING.

I can say, though, that I'm glad I didn't enrol in a Delta course! From what I've read here about many of their instructors it would probably be a big fat waste of time and money! Positive methods = yes I love them and use them and would recommend them to anyone. Delta trainers (outside of Armidale) = I don't think I could recommend them after what I've read. Like I said before, please don't rubbish the method just because some people don't know what they're doing...

[huski]

I have NEVER stated that dogs trained with food are unable to work in trials, so please do not imply that I have or put words into my mouth. I have never stated that they are lesser trained.

Then why keep pointing out that it will be an issue for those who trial it's clearly not for the many who do it right.

I have seen many high in trial dogs that have a bag of hot dogs waiting outside the ring for when they are done their last exercise in obedience, and yet I have seen equally as many high in trial dogs that walk outside the ring and all they get as a reward is a high five and a good pet. Both cases....dogs have had perfect scores.....

Yes and we all use what works for our dogs the best. It would be impossible to ask my scent hound to work purely for a pat on the head, and get the same result as you do with food.

The issue is not removing rewards but CHANGING the reward to something you never run out of. Food rewards are fine as long as you remember to fill your pockets, but for those dogs that work only for a treat, what happens when your pocket runs dry? Since they haven't been encouraged to work at the same level for food as they could for praise, suddenly they 'shut down'.

But that assumes all dogs will work equally as well for praise I'm not sure why you keep asking what happens when our pockets "run dry", I've addressed this point at least three times already.

My dog doesn't need food rewards to comply with my commands but my expectations when it comes to basic manners or behaviour at home etc and what I expect when I train my dog is different.

My dog has a naturally incredibly strong food drive, she does not have a naturally strong pack or play drive in that she will work to the same insane degree with just praise. It's total bullshit to imply that all food or prey driven dogs can work just as well for praise. You're also assuming that if someone trains with food or with a toy, that they aren't also using praise/play as a reward too. I use both food and praise/play to reward and train my dog.

If you have dog who works really well for praise that's great! But not all dogs do, and a good trainer recognises what motivates each dog the most will differ from dog to dog.

I have a dog here that is very food driven and will stand on his head if I show him a treat.....he works well and gives me the behaviours I ask. I have another dog that is not food driven, and works just as well and gives me the behaviours I ask, and yet I only have praise and a pat on the head for him. This is not an argument over 'give food or not give food' this is a discussion about the extremes that happen in training. A method where food reward is the only issue and in fact is often used to reinforce unacceptable behaviours because the trainers are not as good as they claim to be, compared to trainers that yank and pull and bully the dogs into submission.

If it's not an argument about using food/toys and not using food/toys then why do you keep saying it's best to wean dogs completely off food or toy rewards and that all our dogs should just work for praise?

I can't stress again enough that I am not opposed to food rewards, however I AM opposed to the use of food rewards to the point where clearly the dog is not learning but simply being fed or in fact being reinforced on a negative level for behaviours or lack of them.

And if that's the case, then they are being used incorrectly. That's not what you've been saying though.

you seem to assume that Delta is positive training

this is not MY assumption, but the statement on the Delta website as well as those that promote the society.

I think what MrsD meant was that you appear to assume that the Delta method of positive training is the only method of positive training out there.

Edited April 5, 2010 by huski

[Longcoat]

Huski and a few others:

You are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Firstly I am not against food rewards, as I have said multiple times that during the beginning process I do in fact use food. I also use toys if needed, so claiming that I am against dogs that are food trained, or feel that they will not succeed overall is not true.

I also brought up the mention of low versus high food rewards in response to another posters comment. This was not my experience with the belgian but anothers and yes, it does happen all the time, specially with a dog that has a low food drive. (try a great dane for example)

Handlers with bad timing are in fact responsible for mucking up a dogs effort, however not all handlers are inept with a clicker, in fact many work it very well. The key again is to work the dog to the shape/behaviour desired and then wean the dog off the cliker (food) which I was told by a trainer in QLD that it was impossible to do. In their opinion, when clicker training, it is forever. There was nothing I could do to explain to this person that clicker, like any method is a tool that works if done properly but you MUST move beyond the actual clicker as a reinforcement because as mentioned by Longcoat, it as well as food and toys are not permitted in a trialing situation and my experience watching overly rewarded dogs (not little babies) is that they are not able to work without having rewards stuffed in their faces constantly.

Does this mean that the instructors are wrong or the method is wrong? I beleive the instructors aren't as smart or knowledgeable as they would claim to be. I've said MANY times before, I do not have any issues with TRUE positive reinforcement training. But like so many methods out there, this one left to some, has turned into basically a joke. A true positive trainer SEES results and the level of food lowers as the training moves along.

The reality though, which escapes some here in the is thread, is that you do not always have food in your pockets....how do you reward then?

As for the comment made by me about distractions....it was taken to beleive that these were placed with young and inexperienced dogs, which is not true nor was intended to read that way, as I stated that during the sit/down/stay exercises the distractions were littered across the floor. It's called 'proofing' and isn't done with beginner dogs. However my beginner dogs are challenged with distractions and dogs are not pushed aside because they might be one to the rest of the class which was one of the statements made earlier in this piece.

Going back to the main poster and the observations they had at the 'feed it til it drops' class, this discussion was based on that method versus anything else, and what people thought about it. Like so many positive threads to educate, this is beginning to turn into a heated debate on 'youre wrong and I'm write" sort of thread.

I can not stress enough....I am not against positive training, however based on behavioural aspects of dogs, and years of experience with a great many breeds, I can not be convinced that the methods currently being used by Delta are in fact in the best interest of the dogs or their humans.

I believe what Angelsun is saying is correct. Food/toy reward is a training tool that must be ultimately replaced with a reward system permitted on the field. In Schutzhund, you cannot have anything on the field or use anything other than verbal praise and a pat at the end of a routine. No food hidden in pockets, hands drenched in meaty smells etc tec. The dog has to work for the handler full stop. Most problems arise with dogs that work perfectly in training with food/toy reward and come trial day they fail rountines when the routine of reward is missing. It's one of the hardest hurdles to get over with many dogs that amounts to the training methods used. You have to get the dog off any reward system other than verbal praise and a pat to trial and title. The dog is on the field too long, with too many routines to await a food treat back in the crate. The dog can't be focused on leaving the field for a reward, it has to work.

Obviously, not too many concentrate on verbal praise reward methods and don't know how to do it properly. As Angelsun explained, you don't always have food or a toy in your pocket, but we all have hands and a voice which CAN be used as a reward system successfully to cement into training from the beginning without the need for massive weaning off processes as the reward foundation is already in place.

So why does your dog when returning home come to meet you...........for a treat??? NO, a pat and rub, verbal praise and a bit of horse play which the same method can be applied in purposeful training just the same

[huski]

I believe what Angelsun is saying is correct. Food/toy reward is a training tool that must be ultimately replaced with a reward system permitted on the field. In Schutzhund, you cannot have anything on the field or use anything other than verbal praise and a pat at the end of a routine. No food hidden in pockets, hands drenched in meaty smells etc tec. The dog has to work for the handler full stop. Most problems arise with dogs that work perfectly in training with food/toy reward and come trial day they fail rountines when the routine of reward is missing. It's one of the hardest hurdles to get over with many dogs that amounts to the training methods used. You have to get the dog off any reward system other than verbal praise and a pat to trial and title. The dog is on the field too long, with too many routines to await a food treat back in the crate. The dog can't be focused on leaving the field for a reward, it has to work.

People who compete in Schutzhund obedience still train and compete with their dogs in prey drive... they just work on remote rewards.

If all dogs who compete and trial must work purely for praise, how do you explain people like Bedazzled who have food trained dogs working successfully at UD levels? How do you explain the number of people who compete successfully with their dogs working in food/prey drive? I actually stewarded at an obedience trial the other night and a woman had her working line GSD there, who she competes with in Schutzhund and decided to also compete with in ANKC obedience. Shock horror - she uses food and a clicker and guess what, the dog won the ring that night!

I'm about to start trialling with my dog and (shock horror!) I will be trialling her in food drive. The dog has to be able to sustain their drive for x amount of time and we've spent a reasonable amount of time building that drive so it can be sustained over a length of time. Sure I won't have food on me in the ring, but she'll still be rewarded with food afterward.

Obviously, not too many concentrate on verbal praise reward methods and don't know how to do it properly. As Angelsun explained, you don't always have food or a toy in your pocket, but we all have hands and a voice which CAN be used as a reward system successfully to cement into training from the beginning without the need for massive weaning off processes as the reward foundation is already in place.

So why does your dog when returning home come to meet you...........for a treat??? NO, a pat and rub, verbal praise and a bit of horse play which the same method can be applied in purposeful training just the same

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by huski

[Longcoat]

Yes we do train in prey drive for bitework, not obedience though.........infact many world level Schutzhund dogs are trained with E Collars also

What a load of crap! I know schutzhund trainers who work their dogs in prey drive when doing obedience. It would hardly be uncommon!

I have no problem with e-collar training, btw

Handlers with bad timing are in fact responsible for mucking up a dogs effort, however not all handlers are inept with a clicker, in fact many work it very well. The key again is to work the dog to the shape/behaviour desired and then wean the dog off the cliker (food) which I was told by a trainer in QLD that it was impossible to do. In their opinion, when clicker training, it is forever. There was nothing I could do to explain to this person that clicker, like any method is a tool that works if done properly but you MUST move beyond the actual clicker as a reinforcement because as mentioned by Longcoat, it as well as food and toys are not permitted in a trialing situation and my experience watching overly rewarded dogs (not little babies) is that they are not able to work without having rewards stuffed in their faces constantly.

Why not use a clicker forever? If you've trained your dog to trial you won't need it in the ring because your dog can work for that amount of time without needing food or reinforcement with the clicker. Most people use clicker training to teach behaviours, unless you stop teaching your dog new things of course clicker trainers will always use clickers.

How many dogs who trial today do you think have been trained purely on praise? We all know you can't use food or toys in the ring, yet many trialling dogs are trained successfully with them. Of all the people I know who train in drive, there are many who trial successfully with their dogs and they maintain their drive the entire time they are in the ring without the handler needing food or the prey item on them, because they increase the amount of time the dog can sustain that drive. There is no need to wean your dog off food or prey rewards just because you are trialling. I wouldn't work for no pay, why should my dog? I still don't see the difference between using praise and using food or toy rewards. All are rewarding the dog. If we follow your logic, your dog should be able to work without any praise, too.

My dog is trained in food drive and I don't need to stuff food in her face constantly. Still wondering if you think she looks like a dog who is unable to think or work because she's trained with food??

Does this mean that the instructors are wrong or the method is wrong? I beleive the instructors aren't as smart or knowledgeable as they would claim to be. I've said MANY times before, I do not have any issues with TRUE positive reinforcement training. But like so many methods out there, this one left to some, has turned into basically a joke. A true positive trainer SEES results and the level of food lowers as the training moves along.

Of course they lessen the time between food rewards... or you'd never get in the trial ring. Doesn't mean you have to eliminate them entirely, though.

The reality though, which escapes some here in the is thread, is that you do not always have food in your pockets....how do you reward then?

The reality does not escape me, and if you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd see I addressed this several times already. You're assuming that a dog trained with food rewards never complies to the handler without food being present. As I said earlier, my dog happily complies to commands in every day situations without me needing food. But when we go to training I want her to work in drive, and I expect 110% focus, fast, snappy responses to commands, I want her full of beans and jumping off the walls excited to work. I don't always want her in that high energy state at home.

Going back to the main poster and the observations they had at the 'feed it til it drops' class, this discussion was based on that method versus anything else, and what people thought about it. Like so many positive threads to educate, this is beginning to turn into a heated debate on 'youre wrong and I'm write" sort of thread.

Because you ARE wrong that dogs trained with food are unable to work well in trials, or that they have less reliability, or that they can't think or work - or that ALL dogs can be trained just as successfully, to the same standard as they are with food/toy rewards, with praise. That assumes all dogs are the same and motivated by the same things. You are welcome when you come up to QLD next to get the same work I get out of my dog just with praise

I can not stress enough....I am not against positive training, however based on behavioural aspects of dogs, and years of experience with a great many breeds, I can not be convinced that the methods currently being used by Delta are in fact in the best interest of the dogs or their humans.

I am more than happy to use e-collars or prongs. I have no problem with corrections or punishment. I'm not and never have been a fan of DELTA training, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Clickers.........another device , what's wrong with markers and release words.......same thing, same concept without the need of yet another device not permitted in the ring. Getting a dog used to working with implements not permitted in trials makes for more work. Why use a clicker when you have a voice to do the same thing???

[MrsD]

The issue is not removing rewards but CHANGING the reward to something you never run out of. Food rewards are fine as long as you remember to fill your pockets, but for those dogs that work only for a treat, what happens when your pocket runs dry?

I think huski & I both answered this question maybe even more than once, but you must have missed it. I teach my dog that the reward is NOT always on me, it may be in my pocket but it may just likely be on a baitplate that they can or can't see, in someone elses pocket, in a treat bag that they can or can't see etc. I also teach my dog that there is a varied schedule of reward & he may get a treat after 20 seconds or 20 mins but to get the reward he must continue to do what I am asking while I am asking for it. It works exactly the same with my dogs for a toy or play with me. So for me unless I was in the middle of the desert with both arms & legs broken & couldn't get to a food treat or toy ever, it's never going to happen.

Even you have said that you've seen dogs go into obedience rings & work fabulously, obviously the handler doesn't have any treats in their pocket then, same with the dogs in the main areana at Crufts that do the freestyle & heelwork to music or the ones that do the obedience there, no treats in their pockets yet the dogs work brilliantly. It's nothing to do with filling or not filling your pockets, but changing the dogs expectations of where the reward comes from & when.

you seem to assume that Delta is positive training

this is not MY assumption, but the statement on the Delta website as well as those that promote the society.

Sorry, I thought you would realise when I emphasised the "is" what I meant. Delta claims they are positive trainers, yep, but that is NOT the only way to train a dog positively. As I said, the way I train is about as far away from Delta's method described in the first post as using a check chain is, but the way I train is most definitely positive. Like chalk & cheese.

A method where food reward is the only issue and in fact is often used to reinforce unacceptable behaviours because the trainers are not as good as they claim to be, compared to trainers that yank and pull and bully the dogs into submission.

Both in my opinion are wrong and unproductive other than the bullied dogs do tend to comply, but work out of fear motivation compared to wanting to work.

I can't stress again enough that I am not opposed to food rewards, however I AM opposed to the use of food rewards to the point where clearly the dog is not learning but simply being fed or in fact being reinforced on a negative level for behaviours or lack of them.

I totally agree with these comments & yet I train positively, using food & get fantastic results with my dogs. Just goes to prove that all positive training is not equal .

[huski]

Clickers.........another device , what's wrong with markers and release words.......same thing, same concept without the need of yet another device not permitted in the ring. Getting a dog used to working with implements not permitted in trials makes for more work. Why use a clicker when you have a voice to do the same thing???

You can only use marker words in the ring in between exercises, you can't use them when you are actually competing, can you?

Personally I use a marker and release word myself but each to their own, you have highly successful people like Uta Bindels who use clickers and get great results in (Schutzhund) competition, obviously it works for them

[Prydenjoy]

I think huski & I both answered this question maybe even more than once, but you must have missed it.

Yup I did too, I think perhaps it's time we stop banging our heads on brick walls, some people just aren't open to learning new things and only want to have their say, without actually acknowledging other peoples answers...

[bedazzledx2]

:laugh:

I think huski & I both answered this question maybe even more than once, but you must have missed it.

Yup I did too, I think perhaps it's time we stop banging our heads on brick walls, some people just aren't open to learning new things and only want to have their say, without actually acknowledging other peoples answers...

[Longcoat]

'huski' date='5th Apr 2010 - 02:09 PM' post='4439615']

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog???

[Longcoat]

Clickers.........another device , what's wrong with markers and release words.......same thing, same concept without the need of yet another device not permitted in the ring. Getting a dog used to working with implements not permitted in trials makes for more work. Why use a clicker when you have a voice to do the same thing???

You can only use marker words in the ring in between exercises, you can't use them when you are actually competing, can you?

Personally I use a marker and release word myself but each to their own, you have highly successful people like Uta Bindels who use clickers and get great results in (Schutzhund) competition, obviously it works for them

Can you use food and clickers in the ring between exercises???. Most world level Schutzhund trainers don't use clickers and more train with E Collars on the quiet. The point is, the less devices you need to rely upon to motivate working potential, the better the dogs training foundation for reliability.

[Kavik]

I'm just going to say that agility training has come along in leaps and bounds since I first started with Zoe 8 years ago. And most of this is to do with positive training methods, training with food and toys in drive, clickers and reward markers being more common, as well as a greater understanding of how to break down the obstacles into smaller components to teach the dog, and greater distance handling.

Agility is done off leash, often with no collar. It is trained with NO corrections. The top handlers use toy and food rewards and reward after runs in a trial.

Luckily agility is more lenient than obedience - you can use any number of verbal commands and praise in the ring. You are also in the ring for a short amount of time. And agility is FUN! It is VERY different to obedience. These are some of the reasons I love it.

[MrsD]

'huski' date='5th Apr 2010 - 02:09 PM' post='4439615']

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog???

That's interesting, because I didn't see anywhere in this thread where someone said you couldn't train a dog without food, a toy & a clicker? What I have seen is people saying that using food, a toy & clicker you can train your dog positively & in some cases & in many disciplines alot better than you could train it using old fashioned methods like checkchains etc. I KNOW you can train a dog with a check chain & verbal praise to a high level of obedience because I have done it myself - twice in fact- but it doesn't mean that my dog(s) that I have now that are trained with food/toys & a clicker aren't just as well trained (in fact my kelpie is trained to a far far higher level than my 2 german shepherds ever were).

If you think you can train your dog using nothing but verbal praise can I ask you to go out with your dog & teach it to walk upright on it's back legs around you in a circle at a distance of 5m from you? In fact, what about you teach him any behaviour where your dog stays on it's back legs for more than 10 seconds. When you've done that using nothing but verbal praise can you come back & let us know? And tell us how you did it & how long it took & I will tell you how I trained my dog to do it & how long it took & we can compare .

Jeanne, I know, but as Dagboy will tell you I'm a stubborn, strong willed & determined old bag .

ETA - there is nothing wrong with using a marker & a release word, many high level trainers who use positive methods would use those as well as a clicker to train their dog. A clicker is of great benefit when you are teaching a dog a new behaviour & you need to mark precisely the moment that the dog does the right thing, but many trainers including myself change over to a marker work when the dog has learned the behaviour (I think I mentioned that before too, but you must have just missed that bit).

Edited April 5, 2010 by MrsD

[bedazzledx2]

Sorry Longcoat but you just put your foot in it!!!!

Clickers.........another device , what's wrong with markers and release words.......same thing, same concept without the need of yet another device not permitted in the ring. Getting a dog used to working with implements not permitted in trials makes for more work. Why use a clicker when you have a voice to do the same thing???

You can only use marker words in the ring in between exercises, you can't use them when you are actually competing, can you?

Personally I use a marker and release word myself but each to their own, you have highly successful people like Uta Bindels who use clickers and get great results in (Schutzhund) competition, obviously it works for them

Can you use food and clickers in the ring between exercises???. Most world level Schutzhund trainers don't use clickers and more train with E Collars on the quiet. The point is, the less devices you need to rely upon to motivate working potential, the better the dogs training foundation for reliability.

[Cosmolo]

Why does anyone care what method someone else uses if it works for them and is not detrimental to that dog?

The only time i ever have an issue with positive trainers (note, not positive training) is when claims are made that corrections are cruel, not needed for all dogs, a reflection on a poor relationship or poor communication between dog and handler etc etc. And in reverse, i am sure those who train 'positively' get sick and tired of hearing people talk about bribery and dependency on rewards etc.

Who cares if the dog is rewarded with praise or food? Why is trialling the measure? I believe in ongoing rewards- rewards that motivate my dog. If i chose to trial, i would use remote rewards, not stop rewarding. As i don't trial, when i want great improvements or special work, i have food or toys with me.

Doesn't mean that when i sit in the couch and say drop that the dog doesn't do it because i don't have food.. The dogs learn pretty fast they have to do it regardless but there is a marked difference in their work mode and relaxed mode responses- one of my dogs is bursting to work when he does and i don't need OR want those same kind of responses at home- that does not translate to no response!!

[MrsD]

Why does anyone care what method someone else uses if it works for them and is not detrimental to that dog?

The only time i ever have an issue with positive trainers (note, not positive training) is when claims are made that corrections are cruel, not needed for all dogs, a reflection on a poor relationship or poor communication between dog and handler etc etc. And in reverse, i am sure those who train 'positively' get sick and tired of hearing people talk about bribery and dependency on rewards etc.

Who cares if the dog is rewarded with praise or food? Why is trialling the measure? I believe in ongoing rewards- rewards that motivate my dog. If i chose to trial, i would use remote rewards, not stop rewarding. As i don't trial, when i want great improvements or special work, i have food or toys with me.

Doesn't mean that when i sit in the couch and say drop that the dog doesn't do it because i don't have food.. The dogs learn pretty fast they have to do it regardless but there is a marked difference in their work mode and relaxed mode responses- one of my dogs is bursting to work when he does and i don't need OR want those same kind of responses at home- that does not translate to no response!!

:laugh: :rofl: :eek: :hug:

[dark angel]

'huski' date='5th Apr 2010 - 02:09 PM' post='4439615']

So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog???

That's interesting, because I didn't see anywhere in this thread where someone said you couldn't train a dog without food, a toy & a clicker? What I have seen is people saying that using food, a toy & clicker you can train your dog positively & in some cases & in many disciplines alot better than you could train it using old fashioned methods like checkchains etc. I KNOW you can train a dog with a check chain & verbal praise to a high level of obedience because I have done it myself - twice in fact- but it doesn't mean that my dog(s) that I have now that are trained with food/toys & a clicker aren't just as well trained (in fact my kelpie is trained to a far far higher level than my 2 german shepherds ever were).

If you think you can train your dog using nothing but verbal praise can I ask you to go out with your dog & teach it to walk upright on it's back legs around you in a circle at a distance of 5m from you? In fact, what about you teach him any behaviour where your dog stays on it's back legs for more than 10 seconds. When you've done that using nothing but verbal praise can you come back & let us know? And tell us how you did it & how long it took & I will tell you how I trained my dog to do it & how long it took & we can compare .

Jeanne, I know, but as Dagboy will tell you I'm a stubborn, strong willed & determined old bag .

mmmm tricks are one thing obedience is another

But then again could be done i guess ......they get horses to prance on back legs but they use a whip.

Threads gone a long way from not saying no to your dog

[dark angel]

Why does anyone care what method someone else uses if it works for them and is not detrimental to that dog?

The only time i ever have an issue with positive trainers (note, not positive training) is when claims are made that corrections are cruel, not needed for all dogs, a reflection on a poor relationship or poor communication between dog and handler etc etc. And in reverse, i am sure those who train 'positively' get sick and tired of hearing people talk about bribery and dependency on rewards etc.

Who cares if the dog is rewarded with praise or food? Why is trialling the measure? I believe in ongoing rewards- rewards that motivate my dog. If i chose to trial, i would use remote rewards, not stop rewarding. As i don't trial, when i want great improvements or special work, i have food or toys with me.

Doesn't mean that when i sit in the couch and say drop that the dog doesn't do it because i don't have food.. The dogs learn pretty fast they have to do it regardless but there is a marked difference in their work mode and relaxed mode responses- one of my dogs is bursting to work when he does and i don't need OR want those same kind of responses at home- that does not translate to no response!!

[MrsD]

Sorry, I thought the thread had turned to talking about "training" that to me includes everything, not just heeling & other obedience exercises.

WRT the horses & the whips, yes, they can train them with a whip making them rear on their back legs, but rearing up is a natural response from a horse, but not from a dog, I think that 99% of dogs would either lie down & cower or go into aggressive mode if you used a whip on them.

And yes it has been dragged offtopic from the "never saying no to a dog" original post, which btw I totally disagree with .

[MrsD]

It's funny because up until about 4 years ago I would have been on Angelsun's "side" & said that you couldn't get reliability out of a dog except with a check chain & certainly not using food, just goes to show how much has changed .