Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[angelsun]

I have seen dogs run across the ground littered with chunkers &/or toys etc completely ignoring them because as huski has said, the drive satisfaction is from the handler, not the things on the ground.

This is very true and the sign of a well 'proofed' dog. During many of the classes I had in Canada, during the sit/down stay exercise, I would drop chairs on the floor, toss tennis balls and leave dog cookies laying around. With those same distractions littering the floor, we would go into recalls.....a properly trained dog will get its reward from the handler, not what is under foot or laying around. What is that reward? Well it's different for every dog and yes, sometimes it's food....but it's hard to not let a dog self reward in regards to food if there is food laying all over the place. The same can be said for a toy driven dog when it sees a bunch of balls on the floor. Praise however is one of the few things that isnt' laying around and should be given in plenty of quantities and only from the handler to the dog. This is a tricky reward to use on many dogs, and although I do begin with food treats if needed, the key is to wean them off quickly, teaching the dog that my praise is in fact the best motivation for working.

Dogs primarily rewarded with food or animate objects often can run into problems performing when the reward is not there. What I mean is that they may do the task once and come up short with the reward the dog finds satisfying, but most dogs won't be fooled the second time. (similiar to the story of the Belgian and the high value reward versus low value reward) the problem is however, soon, the high value reward, isn't so high anymore....where do you go from there when you are using food? Kibble to cheese to sausage to......well.....uhm.....

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I personally would like to see the statistics of Delta trained dogs, that have achieved things such as CCD's or above. We can't use the numbers for CGC because only that society runs the test, and people must take their six week course before being allowed to take the test. This skews things drastically as dogs that are trained in other methods would be added to the success stories when in fact, they should not be.

Take those numbers and compare them to traditional methods of training using correction collars/food/toys or whatever methods the club/class considers appropriate.

The arguement has been lately that the Delta trained (positive reinforcement) dogs are simply to provide a better pet for the owner. Traditional obedience training also does that. The difference is simply that the former dogs in many ways are not prepared for the stress that comes from trialling, where as the latter more often is proofed and conditioned for it.

I will state again, that I am NOT anti positive training...I use whatever method I need to use for the individual dog to get the final results desired.

[MrsD]

Dogs primarily rewarded with food or animate objects often can run into problems performing when the reward is not there.

Then they aren't being trained right .

[huski]

I have seen dogs run across the ground littered with chunkers &/or toys etc completely ignoring them because as huski has said, the drive satisfaction is from the handler, not the things on the ground.

This is very true and the sign of a well 'proofed' dog. During many of the classes I had in Canada, during the sit/down stay exercise, I would drop chairs on the floor, toss tennis balls and leave dog cookies laying around. With those same distractions littering the floor, we would go into recalls.....a properly trained dog will get its reward from the handler, not what is under foot or laying around. What is that reward? Well it's different for every dog and yes, sometimes it's food....but it's hard to not let a dog self reward in regards to food if there is food laying all over the place.

You don't start training the dog with food littering the floor, though. You work up to that when you know the dog is at a stage where it doesn't see that food or those toys as attainable. I can put the entire bag of treats I have on me - usually filled with things like fish, chicken, sausage etc - on the ground but my dog doesn't even think twice about working away from it because she knows the reward comes from me and that the best and easiest way to get it is to comply with my commands.

Praise however is one of the few things that isnt' laying around and should be given in plenty of quantities and only from the handler to the dog. This is a tricky reward to use on many dogs, and although I do begin with food treats if needed, the key is to wean them off quickly, teaching the dog that my praise is in fact the best motivation for working.

I agree praise should be given in quantity to our dogs and for some dogs praise can be the ultimate reward. However, I'd like to see you take my extremely scent driven hound, wean her completely off food rewards and get her working purely on praise with the same drive and focus I get when I work her in food drive. Why you wouldn't want to use the dog's naturally dominant drive to your benefit is beyond me.

Dogs primarily rewarded with food or animate objects often can run into problems performing when the reward is not there. What I mean is that they may do the task once and come up short with the reward the dog finds satisfying, but most dogs won't be fooled the second time. (similiar to the story of the Belgian and the high value reward versus low value reward) the problem is however, soon, the high value reward, isn't so high anymore....where do you go from there when you are using food? Kibble to cheese to sausage to......well.....uhm.....

I don't know anyone who uses the reward properly who has ever run into that problem firstly through training with remote rewards (so the dog learns the reward is not always on your person but something you might release it to) and keeping the delivery of the reward unpredictable so the dog has no idea when it's going to get it.

And I've been training my dog in food drive for over a year now and I've never had problem with the food reward losing it's value. I often use the same food (luncheon roll) and it has never become "not so high anymore". That's because our training isn't just about getting a food reward, but a chemical reward, the release of endorphins the dog gets when it gets drive satisfaction and the pack/play reward she gets from training with me.

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

But how is having poor timing or rewarding for the wrong thing reflective of anything but the handler's lack of skill? I'm not following your logic - are you saying that someone who rewards with praise can't have bad timing or that it's not positive? Because I can't see the difference between a dog working in pack/play drive being rewarded with praise and a dog working in food drive being rewarded with food. Many trainers DO use food or toy rewards correctly and have great timing.

I'd like to hear from anyone whose seen my dog working in real life tell me that she's not thinking or working purely because she works in food drive ;) Here she is learning about scent discrimination. She picked the exercise up in a matter of days. She is motivated largely by the food reward I'm using. Would you call this a dog who is not thinking or working?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joVEZVF14-s

Now it's a terrible example of MY handling skills, but I am curious how anyone could infer my dog is neither working nor thinking because I am rewarding her with food.

I can't comment re Delta because I have limited exposure to their training and methods and none have been particularly impressive.

[Longcoat]

Simple question: Can you use food/toy rewards in official obedience or agility trials???.

[huski]

Simple question: Can you use food/toy rewards in official obedience or agility trials???.

No, but that doesn't stop you from working your dog in prey or food drive in a trial. You just can't have the food or toy on you in the ring.

[MrsD]

I've been thinking about this & I think the problem is that some of the people in this thread don't actually know HOW to train properly with a clicker & with food ie positively. There is a huge difference between luring a dog & training a dog with food in your hand, any half decent positive trainer will tell you that. The first is teaching a behaviour, the second is bribing the dog. Completely different things. Luring works, bribing doesn't.

I'd like to hear from anyone whose seen my dog working in real life tell me that she's not thinking or working purely because she works in food drive Here she is learning about scent discrimination. She picked the exercise up in a matter of days. She is motivated largely by the food reward I'm using. Would you call this a dog who is not thinking or working?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joVEZVF14-s

Now it's a terrible example of MY handling skills, but I am curious how anyone could infer my dog is neither working nor thinking because I am rewarding her with food.

I can vouch, I have seen Huski's dog work & she works very well in drive & she doesn't have to stick something in front of her nose to make her do something. I think huski could probably vouch that Jarrah is the same - how else would I be able to go out in a ring & do a 3 minute freestyle routine in competition ie without food/toy etc? And that's not including the 5 mins we have to be in the marshalling area where we aren't allowed any food/toys etc before we set foot in the competition ring.

BTW, when I talk about positive training I am not talking about the stuff that the original poster said she saw at the Delta club, I have never seen Delta trainers or members before but it sounds pretty OTT to me. I mean teaching a dog behaviours, whether it's teaching them to heel, a dance move or to simply sit in a corner on a mat using some sort of reward system & a clicker.

[huski]

Jarrah is awesome MrsD! I don't know how you DWD people do it, it's all way too hard for me

[MrsD]

Jarrah is awesome MrsD! I don't know how you DWD people do it, it's all way too hard for me

Thanks Huski - ohhh & lots of training ;) .

[Kissindra]

haven't read all the replies, but this may be of interest:

http://davidcavill.wordpress.com/alternati...nine-behaviour/

"Alternative views on the modification of canine behaviour

As many of you will know, the Kennel Club has been developing an accreditation scheme for dog trainers and behaviourists for over two years.The scheme is excellent and comprehensive although it would be fair to say that is progress has not always been smooth and some feel it is much more complicated than it need be. I am not one of them – the accreditation of standards in any field is complex almost by definition – and I feel that those tasked with creating this award have done an excellent job and the first half dozen candidates have just been awarded their certification.

However, there are two issues that have to be addressed. The first appears to be almost solving itself in an entirely unexpected way. It is the question of how dogs are best trained or their behaviour modified. The problems have really arisen because I believe a false dichotomy that been created by the learning processes suggested by some (I emphasise ’some’) research questioning pack theory. I am not disputing the findings per se because it shows an evolution in the way in which dogs behave that sounds reasonable and has been successfully demonstrated by many trainers.However, I am saying that other research does not back it up – sometimes partially and sometime completely. If you go tohttp://www.anglianwolf.com and click on ‘what is applied canine behaviour’, you will find what I think is a reasonable summary of the ‘old’ perception.

At the same time, I have no problem with the views of Donaldson (both Jean and Ian), Prior, Kerkhove and others, except that their published material is scattered with statements such as ‘if true’, ‘may’, ’suggests’ and ’seems’. You could probably put all those same qualifications into the work done by Lorenz, Trummler and their followers so there is no doubt that the understanding of canine behaviour is not an exact science.

My own view is pragmatic and does not depend on a ‘vision’, ‘research’ or opinion’. Given that any successful methods employed to train dogs are ‘reasonable’ by any humanitarian standards it does not matter what the theoretical foundation is. The philosophy and ideas are important, interesting – even fascinating (and should certainly be understood by those involved in any behavioural work) – but they may give rise to a number of approaches to problems of behaviour. But one approach does not necessarily wipe another from the face of the earth and so you would think there is little reason to get upset if there is any disagreement. Not so: most of the proponents of each view are evangelical in their condemnation of the others’ ideas

It seems to me that we have been confused into thinking that there is an enormous gulf between the “old” (harsh and brutal) method, which embraces pack hierarchy and dominance, and the “new” (modern, progressive and gentle) method, which rejects these ideas altogether. Why should we have to choose between one and the other if (and I emphasise ‘if’) both work within those humanitarian parameters on which we all agree?

There appears to be a feeling that if you do not embrace the ‘new’ you are automatically of the ’old’ and therefore are ‘harsh and brutal’. My experience reinforces my belief that this is simply not the case. You may argue that the ‘pack’ approach may give credibility to those who might be harsh and I would take the point if overall attitudes to training had not changed. No one (well, virtually no one) would return to the Barbara Woodhouse ‘school’ despite her methods being very successful.

The reason for all this detail is that as things stand we are not yet in a position to condemn anyone would feels that pack hierarchies provide a reasonable sensible basis for CBM and in our own advanced Canine Psychology course at the Animal Care College we state that serious problems my require ‘rank reduction techniques’ i.e. those based on pack theory.

I took up the dichotomy with Sue Evans who is responsible for the Kennel Club’s accreditation programme. A slow, secretive smile and satisfied smile surfaced. She told me that one of the most interesting aspects of the assessment process was that as assessors had not been ‘screened’ for their views on dog training, many had been assessing candidates from the ‘other’ approach. She said that their faces ‘were a picture’ as they realised that an approach they themselves would not have used and in fact, rejected, worked perfectly well.

This is excellent news. Clearly, the argument is not, as some have suggested, Creationists against Darwinists. In the case of training and behaviour modification there is genuine and palpable evidence on both sides of the argument: much more like two people looking out of the window and one concluding it might rain later and the other concluding that it might clear up and be sunny.

The second may be more difficult.

A recent survey carried out by Pet Plan has revealed that one in four Vets have treated animals, generally dogs, for conditions caused by the ingestion of drugs. Regular readers will remember that I expressed my concern on this issue a month or so back.

Part of the report reads:

‘Whilst mood-enhancing drugs such as cannabis rarely prove fatal for a pet, unpleasant side effects can include dizziness, vomiting and temporary loss of movement. The effects can last up to three or four days and throughout that time; veterinary monitoring is essential to ensure major organs don’t fail. As a result vets bills can run into many hundreds of pounds.’

There was no specific indication as to whether these drugs were introduced by their owners by accident or deliberately by other vets or behaviourists and the assumption in the report surmised accidental ingestion but the possibility that these drugs may have been introduced deliberately highlights once again what is becoming an increasing problem within the world of Canine Behaviour Modification (CBM).

As Studies Co-ordinator of the Animal Care College I have naturally taken an interest in what is going on in the world of CBM and my concern is that those who use psychotropic drugs to calm down unruly dogs either while they treat them for behaviour problems more conventionally or on a permanent basis, are not prepared to listen to the concerns of many experienced trainers, vets and, indeed, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. They have dug themselves into a trench to extent that they cannot see above the parapet (do trenches have parapets or is does it only apply to battlements?).

The Kennel Club must take a view on this matter in relation to their Accreditation Scheme because the recent culture of demanding stress free training (for some) often requires the administration of prescription drugs.

The panels set up under the Animal Welfare Bill, with its provision of a ‘duty of care’ responsibility to animals are now working on defining that duty as part of secondary legislation. I hope that this will give added impetus to the view that stress levels while dog are being trained should be kept as low as possible and that the used of prescription drugs will be seen only as a last resort rather than a catch all ‘quick fix’ solution. In the meantime, I understand that Royal College will be addressing all aspects of the psychotropic dug issue separately.

(January 2006)"

Edited April 4, 2010 by Kissindra

[bedazzledx2]

Why do you ask?

Simple question: Can you use food/toy rewards in official obedience or agility trials???.

[Longcoat]

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

[bedazzledx2]

My little brag for the weekend....my positively trained (with food...gasp!) boy won both Utility trials in today's double header 192/200 and 198/200. No food or toys allowed in the ring. Wonder how that happened?

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

[huski]

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

What about training with food makes a dog unreliable? Food is a reward just as praise is a reward. Just because you train with food does not mean you don't or can't also use praise. Would you expect your dog to work with no reward whatsoever? No food, toys or praise?

ETA: Impossible Bedazzled! Don't you know dogs who are rewarded with food are unreliable and don't work well or know how to think?? ;)

Edited April 4, 2010 by huski

[bedazzledx2]

So they keep trying to tell me Huski Clearly somethings wrong here

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation ;) I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

What about training with food makes a dog unreliable? Food is a reward just as praise is a reward. Just because you train with food does not mean you don't or can't also use praise. Would you expect your dog to work with no reward whatsoever? No food, toys or praise?

ETA: Impossible Bedazzled! Don't you know dogs who are rewarded with food are unreliable and don't work well or know how to think??

[OSoSwift]

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

My dogs are food reward clicker trained and they are NEVER starved for one meal never mind three.

Not only that, my dogs also get praise and a love up as a reward - these can be taken into the ring. A dog trained at the appropriate level will work for an amount of time well past the length of a trial for one reward. That is part of the training that is done.

I have trained check chain and clicker/food. My Dobe was a cross over dog. She did get a pass check chain trained, but passed more convincingly once rewards based trained. She only retrieved the dumbell due to much hard work on my part and rewards based training.

She would never have attained her CDX if not for a change in training styles.

I train my dog with the type of training that works for the dog I have on the end of the lead. My dogs do get corrected in life, life cannot be a purely positive experience. I train my dog with the best method I have for my dog/s I am also always open to looking at how others do it and if I believe their methods will help more or be better than mine I take them on board. Open minds lead to well trained dogs, not a particular method.

Oh and BedazzledX2 well done - the judge must have been hard! how could she have taken 8 whole points off your boy!

[Longcoat]

'angelsun' date='4th Apr 2010 - 09:27 PM' post='4438594']

My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up?

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability.

What about training with food makes a dog unreliable? Food is a reward just as praise is a reward. Just because you train with food does not mean you don't or can't also use praise. Would you expect your dog to work with no reward whatsoever? No food, toys or praise?

ETA: Impossible Bedazzled! Don't you know dogs who are rewarded with food are unreliable and don't work well or know how to think?? ;)

Praise rewards are far more transportable than food rewards with nothing to wean off. A dog trained on praise reward will work anytime, anywhere, any place. How do you think yesterday's dogs worked before positive reinforcement trends evolved???

[huski]

I would never starve my dog - although being a beagle she is almost always starving - but I would and have fasted her for 24 hours or fed her meal via training. The type of training I do can be pretty high energy and I would always prefer to work her on an empty stomach. Not because she can't work after having a meal, but it's better for her not to. There is nothing cruel about fasting a dog for one meal. Most of the time she has her main meal in the morning and we trainer night time, if I do training in the morning I would do it before I fed her.

[huski]

Longcoat you are welcome to come and train my beagle using strictly praise and get the same drive and focus I get using food. I won't ever wean her off food rewards when we are doing drive training, this doesn't mean I have a dog who only complies to my commands when I have food but that the level of drive and focus I expect when we train in food drive is different to when we are at home or out and about.

Many Schutzhund trainers work their dogs in prey drive, do you think they should all be working their dogs purely with praise too? How frustrated do you think a highly prey driven working dog would be with no outlet for that drive?

[Longcoat]

I would never starve my dog - although being a beagle she is almost always starving - but I would and have fasted her for 24 hours or fed her meal via training. The type of training I do can be pretty high energy and I would always prefer to work her on an empty stomach. Not because she can't work after having a meal, but it's better for her not to. There is nothing cruel about fasting a dog for one meal. Most of the time she has her main meal in the morning and we trainer night time, if I do training in the morning I would do it before I fed her.

Fasting a dog for up to 3 days is not uncommon to generate food drive, I have had it suggested to me on several occasions and know a few that do it with dogs not overly food motivated. Mine isn't as food driven as some in training and I use a simlar feeding format as you do Huski when training.

[Longcoat]

Longcoat you are welcome to come and train my beagle using strictly praise and get the same drive and focus I get using food. I won't ever wean her off food rewards when we are doing drive training, this doesn't mean I have a dog who only complies to my commands when I have food but that the level of drive and focus I expect when we train in food drive is different to when we are at home or out and about.

Many Schutzhund trainers work their dogs in prey drive, do you think they should all be working their dogs purely with praise too? How frustrated do you think a highly prey driven working dog would be with no outlet for that drive?

Yes we do train in prey drive for bitework, not obedience though.........infact many world level Schutzhund dogs are trained with E Collars also