Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[Mas1981]

I was talking to one of the people I do agility with, who is doing the Delta instructor's course. They are actually told not to deal with dogs that have any behavioural problems, but to refer them to a veterinary behaviourist. They are not taught how to deal with problem dogs at all. The lady I talked to was frustrated at this.

This holds BIG concerns for me for a number of reasons...firstly....these trainers present themselves as people that can take any dog with any problem and fix it using only positive/food methods. The website also presents these people as 'some of the highest qualified' in the country and proclaim their Certification Level 4 as the be all, end all.

Now if this is the actual case and this qualification is what they present it to be, then having a problem dog, would not present a problem....(pardon the play on words!)

It strikes me very odd that a group of people, that loudly proclaim their method of instruction IS THE ONLY CORRECT WAY, and yes, they are indeed that vocal, will pass off or ignore dogs that are disruptive or difficult or come with problems.

The next concern is this, and this is happening in my region.....These instructors have falsely told people that correction collars are not allowed (against club rules) on the premises of the training/show grounds.....therefore with that statement, and a dog show coming up in a week, no one would then be permitted to show their dog on a choke chain of any sort, in fact martingales are also considered incorrect, but head halters and body harnesses are acceptable. Now saying this, we have a large group of people that have been turned away through one reason or another from this group of instructors. They have been told that their dogs are not suitable, they as owners are to blame, or a combination of the above. They have an unruly dog with no hope of getting the instruction and support they need to turn that dog into a good member of their neighbourhood. This is the dog club...the Canine Club....the place where most would turn to with a dog, looking for help, and yet, because the intructors with their Certification 4 diplomas will not deal with dogs with problems and issues, be it dog to dog or dog to human, these dogs and their owners are left hanging and risk the worst fate because they are being ignored.

This is where I came onto the scene, with a lot of years of practical training behind me, and when I say that, I mean training that makes a better social pet, AND can be used for trialling IF the team wishes it. I do not just do "pet" obedience...to me, obedience is obedience, full stop....I will polish you and your dog should you wish to trial, but to me, the same rules apply regardless of what you are going to do with your dog.

I had a new student today....this makes in the past three weeks of getting together to train, the numbers going from a start of 4 dogs, to a group of about 12. All these dogs come to me with some issue or another....all are different little personalities to sort out and all are being taught the same disciplines, albeit with slightly different methods depending on the dog and what it needs.

In less than three weeks, I've taken a dog with lead aggression issues to being able to be within a couple metres of another dog and most times, not reacting. This same dog that pulled her mom around, today did a stellar heeling routine full of tight circles and direction changes and really wanted to work....by the way..no food involved.

I have a couple Sibes that because of their Delta training, would simply not even sit without food in front of them...they both now work well with praise only and are corrected only slightly for slow responses. And then there is my over the top GSP who's energy levels make me tired just watching her.....she now settles into work and heeling and is far less flakey...she is a play machine....high praise makes her worse....so we know now to keep the praise quiet and sporatic to make her work her best.

All my class did exceptional today as they learned a lot of new things in both obedience and simple behaviour training. All but one came with a correction collar, and all dogs are learning to respond to the rattle that a properly fitted and used choke chain will do. Tails wagging, and people smiling because they are learning. But I will also mention that I'm in the black books with some, specifically the instructors that also train in the same location, simply because I buck the system.....(in their opinion) That I do not have a Certification 4 diploma issued by someone (I really don't know who issues them) to tell me that I am capable of training someones dog. And yet those same people with that slip of paper, won't take the dogs I have in my class....why.....simple answer...because they are NOT easy to work with, and these particular trainers and their methods do not want to show that they do not succeed, or it simplyl undermines what they are pushing out there as propoganda stating that their method is the only "HUMANE" method to use, and anything less is archaic.....

Do I say no to my dog? Damn straight I do..I don't couch it by saying I use 'whoops' or 'wrong' or 'uh oh' etc....call it what you want, it's a negative tone, it's the same as saying NO....but perhaps the word NO is concidered politically incorrect now? That negative tone replaces the mother dogs low grumble when a pup is naughty, and the quick pop on the correction collar (is that politically correct enough instead of choke chain?) is the neck grip and hold that mommy dog does when needed. Pups know the rules....it's very clear to them and if we watch baby pups and their moms we see them being taught to respect.....then suddenly we humans take over and that well behaved pup that doesn't nip or bite, turns into the hound from hell.....why? Because we stopped being 'mommy dog' and began to rationalize with the pup....

I do say please and thank you to my dogs when they do as I ask or when I am asking them for a behaviour or action....but I do not reason with them. They love me anyway, and I"m pretty sure won't grow up and write a novel about how horrible I was to them as they grew up. (Remember "Mommy Dearest"?)

I agree with you 100% I had a dog that was very dominant and we went to a club where i was given terrible advice 10 years ago, I think if I had been 'the leader' more with her instead of trying to be her friend I would not have had half the issues I had with her and probably half the struggles too.

When I got my lab pup last year I was probably a bit too harsh with him as I did not let him get away with ANYTHING and I did say no when he was mouthing me or jumping etc and he knows thats bad behaviour. Know that he is older I hardly ever have to say NO and he is a lovely well behaved dog I get compliments all the time

[Mas1981]

I don't see why there is a problem or stigma associated with using food in training I will always use a food reward for Daisy because I train her in food drive. There's no way on the planet you could get the same level of work out of her simply using praise. Could I still get her to sit or comply to other commands without food? Of course, I don't use food for day to day stuff and I still expect compliance when we aren't training. I don't however expect the same level of 110% focus, bouncing off the walls to comply with my command, adrenaline pumping, fast, sharp enthusiasm I do when we are training.

I think there is a big difference between food exchange (shoveling food into the dog's mouth) and food drive (getting a dog to really work for the reward). You can really see the difference in a dog who is basically just eating the treat because it was presented to them and a dog who would walk over hot coals to get a tiny piece of food.

I don't mean to come across as someone whose anti corrections or punishment because I definitely am not, but I'd hate for anyone to get the impression that if you use food in training you are bribing your dog or you're a weak trainer or permissive.

Daisy Mason is the same he does his best work for food OR when he knows dinner is coming up and if he works he will get his whole dinner. I was shown though on friday morning how to use a toy and the clicker for training and I was amazed at how Mason actually worked for the toy!!

Edited April 4, 2010 by Masons_mom

[centitout]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

The Delta trainer in this area won't deal with dogs that show any aggression (dog or human). She sends them to another (non-Delta) trainer.

ETA By 'this area' I mean my area.

I was talking to one of the people I do agility with, who is doing the Delta instructor's course. They are actually told not to deal with dogs that have any behavioural problems, but to refer them to a veterinary behaviourist. They are not taught how to deal with problem dogs at all. The lady I talked to was frustrated at this.

This pup wasnt aggressive AT ALL until after several weeks of having his food taken away constantly on the trainers advice

.Exuberant,yes,aggressive,no way.

[huski]

MM, some dogs are more prey than food drive and really enjoy working for a toy. Micha is very food driven but I would say he's slightly more prey driven. He works really nicely for his new iSqueak!

Daisy likes to tug and she doesn't mind chasing things if she's in the mood but she is far more food driven and won't even notice toys if there is food involved.

Edited April 4, 2010 by huski

[Prydenjoy]

Berri sounds pretty amazing Jeanne! You should post some videos of him in the youtube or training talk thread

Yes he is amazing, I do have one clip of him learning the flip finish (which we now have down pat, I was teaching it all wrong but now he'd do anything to be right at my foot). I haven't had the chance to get any other clips of him.

Why have you no options?

Well I think the nearest training centre that conforms to my ideals is over 2 hours away, so I just go to our local club and do my own thing (it gets difficult when I'm instructing classes and my methods are different to the ones being taught, I do my best to be open minded).

It's funny that some people have had problems with Delta instructors, I have come across some AMAZING Delta instructors and highly recommend the lady who teaches Puppy Pre School at the Vets here. She is fantastic. Our friend who got a exhuberent Dane puppy was having difficulty until she did a home visit and the difference in him is incredible (they also have 2 young kids, so it was vital to nip the problems in the bud). We used to have some absolutely wonderful instructors in town many years ago, sadly they have all left (problem with being at a University town, people get their PhD's or whatever and move on). Sometimes you just don't know what you've got until it's gone...

And no, NONE of the Delta instructors I have met would EVER recommend taking a pups food off it every day and not giving it something extra special before giving it straight back. Just because one person is a moron doesn't mean they all are (unless the puppy buyer simply wasn't following directions properly, that is also a possibility).

Huski, Daisy sounds like a lovely dog. I love a Beagle with lots of food motivation

[Longcoat]

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience.

Depends on the reinforcement history and how well the response has been conditioned. I'm not 'purely positive', but the value of an individual reinforcement v level of distraction becomes a non-issue even at my level of expertise.

It certainly does depend upon reinforcement history but in the reliability crunch, there will be some distraction somewhere greater than the reward on offer and the dog will bolt, or disobey especially off leash. It's a proofing principal of E Collar training for example where the dog learns a negative consequence to the action of disobedience. Some people have a different interpretation of maximum distraction, what some believe is high distraction to others that level of distraction is only a medium level.

I remember a Labrador trained purely positive not long a go, a brilliant dog in obedience except when the woman who handled the dog's husband was present. If the dog got wind of the OH present it would focus on him and misbehave, break stays etc etc. Several trainers assisted with correcting this problem which improved maginally but not good enough to be acceptable. It wasn't until an E Collar was used on this dog in off leash obedience was the behaviour corrected. Months of positive reinforcement failure was corrected in two sessions of punishment when the dog learned that there was a negative consequence to misbehaviour.

Not eveyone views reliability the same either. What some accept as great reliability, other will view as only average and depends on what you are looking to attain from the dog.

[Longcoat]

We can dance around this topic forever and there will always be some that disagree. The reality is, and it is not often acknowledged by the purely positive trainers, is that they have dogs that are not able to be manipulated with this method. Trainers using check chains are not all about evil pain infliction, and not all owners know nothing and this is the reason they go to training class.

There are many methods that work, many variations within the methods and not one will work exclusively with all dogs, regardless of the brochures that are handed out to promote 'training school A' or 'B'.

I've had dogs in the past that require a heavier hand, and dogs that if you look at them crosswise they turn into water. Using the same, or even similar methods on these would result in a confused dog that didn't know the boundaries of what I expected.

As for trialing after two months...yes it's possible, and it doesn't have to be through positive reinforcement training. I've seen it with a good old fashioned check chain. I also had a mini aussie shepherd that after four classes could complete the requirements for a CD (in Canada) Again....check chain, BUT also food reward when needed but very little, and a ton of happy praise. So yes, it can be done to combine the two mentalities successfully. I've done it many times.

There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

Excellent post, very well explained Angelsun

[Longcoat]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

The Delta trainer in this area won't deal with dogs that show any aggression (dog or human). She sends them to another (non-Delta) trainer.

yep it was a delta trainer i went to...never again.

What I would like to know is what this Delta system has achieved as a finished product??? Someone has obviously come up with the system so what's their background of achievement using it???. Have they titled dogs in sport, do they train police or sniffer dogs, guide dogs for the blind or anything worthy of recognition taking dogs to high achievement levels???. Or is it a system they are practicing with to see how it goes

[Mas1981]

MM, some dogs are more prey than food drive and really enjoy working for a toy. Micha is very food driven but I would say he's slightly more prey driven. He works really nicely for his new iSqueak!

Daisy likes to tug and she doesn't mind chasing things if she's in the mood but she is far more food driven and won't even notice toys if there is food involved.

I thought Mason wouldnt work for a toy either but when he found a pine cone he kept fetching the instructor said lets use it to our advantage and he worked for the pine cone!!

[GoldenGirl85]

I thought Mason wouldnt work for a toy either but when he found a pine cone he kept fetching the instructor said lets use it to our advantage and he worked for the pine cone!!

Lol, I just got the best training session out of my JRT who would only ever work for food using a chew toy that I didnt even realise she liked!!

[Kelpie-i]

So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer.

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

It is not the potential for reward that is going to work, but rather if the reward violates the dog's expectation....is higher than the dog ever anticipated. Thinking out loud here....Could be dog is working for the potential for a higher level of reward but if we kept increasing, then it becomes predictable and no longer exceeds expectations.

[Prydenjoy]

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

I'm not sure whether that is out of context, but it doesn't sound right to me. A reinforcer is just that, it is something that reinforces behavior, making it more likely to happen in the future. If I train with a lot of high value rewards, I assume the dog will "expect" a high value reward, but if I then change to a lower value reward (like boring kibble) the behavior is still maintained, or continues to become stronger. I highly doubt that in feeding kibble I am "exceeding" the dogs expectations, but the reward still works...

[Longcoat]

So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer.

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

It is not the potential for reward that is going to work, but rather if the reward violates the dog's expectation....is higher than the dog ever anticipated. Thinking out loud here....Could be dog is working for the potential for a higher level of reward but if we kept increasing, then it becomes predictable and no longer exceeds expectations.

Sometimes it's difficult to find a reward greater than the distraction especially prey driven distractions.

[huski]

So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer.

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

It is not the potential for reward that is going to work, but rather if the reward violates the dog's expectation....is higher than the dog ever anticipated. Thinking out loud here....Could be dog is working for the potential for a higher level of reward but if we kept increasing, then it becomes predictable and no longer exceeds expectations.

Sometimes it's difficult to find a reward greater than the distraction especially prey driven distractions.

What if you are training the dog in prey drive? Then you have the prey reward in your hand.

[Longcoat]

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

I'm not sure whether that is out of context, but it doesn't sound right to me. A reinforcer is just that, it is something that reinforces behavior, making it more likely to happen in the future. If I train with a lot of high value rewards, I assume the dog will "expect" a high value reward, but if I then change to a lower value reward (like boring kibble) the behavior is still maintained, or continues to become stronger. I highly doubt that in feeding kibble I am "exceeding" the dogs expectations, but the reward still works...

We did a test a couple of weeks ago at training with the instructors Belgian Malinios to prove that Stephen Lindsay is correct. The Malinios is toy motivated which completes a routine perfectly with a toy reward and play. Tried the same exercise with food and worked the "first" time only and failed the next three attempts. Used the toy reward again with a perfect routine. Lessening the reward produced a failed performance in this test.

[Longcoat]

So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer.

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work.

It is not the potential for reward that is going to work, but rather if the reward violates the dog's expectation....is higher than the dog ever anticipated. Thinking out loud here....Could be dog is working for the potential for a higher level of reward but if we kept increasing, then it becomes predictable and no longer exceeds expectations.

Sometimes it's difficult to find a reward greater than the distraction especially prey driven distractions.

What if you are training the dog in prey drive? Then you have the prey reward in your hand.

Sometimes the prey reward in hand is not as exciting as the prey running across the field though

[huski]

Sometimes the prey reward in hand is not as exciting as the prey running across the field though

Depends on how advanced the dog is in its training I guess - I know of dogs trained in prey drive who will chase after live prey if left to their own devices, but wouldn't give it a second glance if training and their owner can call them off live prey because the dog knows that compliance with commands is the best and quickest way to get drive satisfaction.

[Kelpie-i]

I'm not sure whether that is out of context, but it doesn't sound right to me. A reinforcer is just that, it is something that reinforces behavior, making it more likely to happen in the future. If I train with a lot of high value rewards, I assume the dog will "expect" a high value reward, but if I then change to a lower value reward (like boring kibble) the behavior is still maintained, or continues to become stronger. I highly doubt that in feeding kibble I am "exceeding" the dogs expectations, but the reward still works...

I believe Lindsay's principle is based on learning, not maintenance. Having said that I highly doubt a low level reward would make behaviour stronger rather it now being based on the dog's increasing proficiency in the skill and your expectations....Successive Approximation can and perhaps would be seen as exceeding reward expectation, especially if the reward were jackpotted occasionally. To summise: It is not your treat (kibble) that the dog finds rewarding, rather the frequency and/or amount of delivery.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[Longcoat]

Sometimes the prey reward in hand is not as exciting as the prey running across the field though

Depends on how advanced the dog is in its training I guess - I know of dogs trained in prey drive who will chase after live prey if left to their own devices, but wouldn't give it a second glance if training and their owner can call them off live prey because the dog knows that compliance with commands is the best and quickest way to get drive satisfaction.

I had a problem with my dog a few weeks ago getting to training early and on the field before us was soccer practice. I ran him around for a warm up and could only get focus for a few seconds at a time due to the distraction of all the guys running around on field kicking a ball In prey, the soccer practice that he had never seen before left to his own devices he would have joined in. Although I could call him away, I couldn't get proper focus in that distraction and he was rubber necking around my legs watching the soccer guys.

[MrsD]

I don't see why there is a problem or stigma associated with using food in training I will always use a food reward for Daisy because I train her in food drive. There's no way on the planet you could get the same level of work out of her simply using praise. Could I still get her to sit or comply to other commands without food? Of course, I don't use food for day to day stuff and I still expect compliance when we aren't training. I don't however expect the same level of 110% focus, bouncing off the walls to comply with my command, adrenaline pumping, fast, sharp enthusiasm I do when we are training.

I think there is a big difference between food exchange (shoveling food into the dog's mouth) and food drive (getting a dog to really work for the reward). You can really see the difference in a dog who is basically just eating the treat because it was presented to them and a dog who would walk over hot coals to get a tiny piece of food.

I don't mean to come across as someone whose anti corrections or punishment because I definitely am not, but I'd hate for anyone to get the impression that if you use food in training you are bribing your dog or you're a weak trainer or permissive.

Absolutely agree huski, if you look at all of the dogs that dance they are all trained positively usually with food or a toy. Doesn't mean they get away with murder, it's all about drive & reward. Most of the top scoring obedience dogs both here in Australia & overseas are trained with food or toys.

I used to train with a check chain when I did obedience trialling years ago & whilst I still use a martingale on my dog it's for a different reason (he slips his collar). I will still correct him if he does something wrong around the house etc, but there is no way on this earth that I could get him to do what he does when he dances with a check chain, compulsion, correction or harsh treatment.

I think the difference here is that most people who train positively will still correct their dog in every day situation, but the people who still train with correction & check chains only see the few that go to the extreme of no corrections etc (as was observed in the first post).

And for those who say that you can't get a positively trained dog to respond when they are distracted (by toy/prey/food/whatever) I have seen dogs run across the ground littered with chunkers &/or toys etc completely ignoring them because as huski has said, the drive satisfaction is from the handler, not the things on the ground. I know people who train with compulsion would find it hard to believe, but it does work!

The biggest training problems come through inflexible extremists- whether they be 'food only' or corrections only. Flexibility, an ability to assess the dog in front of you and choose the technique to suit is vital in any trainer.

The issue is, people who use 'corrections only' think food is a bribe and people who use 'food only' think every correction is abuse. neither of these things are correct and there is a whole lot of beautiful grey area in the middle of the extremes!

Absolutely positively agree (pardon the pun ;) ) . Different dogs, even different breeds need different techniques & you should use the one that suits you and your dog .

Edited April 4, 2010 by MrsD