Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[Prydenjoy]

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else.

In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them.

I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before.

I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.

[Longcoat]

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc

I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction?

As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see.

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat.

so whats in the pudding???

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

[Longcoat]

What's your point Longcoat?

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

Exactly what I asked is the point What are the "objects" of the training methods...........to achieve a dog that sits randomly when it likes, or can only sit on a mat, or providing the foundation to compete in obedience trials???, what are they actually teaching???

[Misha]

learning phase = only positive

distraction phase = positive

correction phase

maintenance can be both

[bedazzledx2]

You appear to be lumping all positive training into the one basket and making the assumption that when the distractions become greater than the rewards, positive methods fail. This is just not so! So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer. As I said before...positive is not permissive. The trainer quoted here allowed her dog to break a down stay several times....bad trainer!!! Not the dogs fault and punishing the dog for not doing what its obviously not trained/proofed to do would be unfair.

Its worth investigating the benefits of positive training with an open mind. BTW we are talking about starting dogs here in a normal pet class, not trying to reform aggressive dogs or dogs with behavioural problems. Positive has a place there too but that is for a different thread.

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc

I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction?

As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see.

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat.

so whats in the pudding???

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

[alpha bet]

Many clubs can set a standard that their instructors have to work to. Perhaps the instructor you observed was not very experienced and was making mistakes (such as rewarding incorrect recalls).

I have watched classes where the criteria is Positive Reinforcement ONLY and at times it can appear to be out of control, but this can happen in the 'obedience regimented class' as well.

Sometimes the concept of Positive Reinforcement Only is managed incorrectly - the APDT in America has actually issued a warning to their members they are not to use check chains. Perhaps this is a case of being taken to the extreme.

Personally I try to teach my families that when they are trying to manage their dogs behaviour on a day to day basis there are techniques they can use that will BLOCK behaviour they do not want - yes this will involve some form of negative response - enough to block the behaviour and then back to neutral.

However when they are TEACHING their dog a new excercise they should avoid any negatives but instead to try and watch and wait for the response they aim for and then reward thst behaviour.

After all as Trainers we are there to TEACH the handlers. It is important to give families tools to cover as many real life situations as possible.

[dark angel]

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else.

In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them.

I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before.

I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.

Firstly im not attending these classes just listening in to hear what they have to say and how they operate.I went to see how the "others" train dogs.Never too old to learn new things

By team do you mean the training class or dog and owner? the training class in nationally accredited and they adhere to the rules of that organization so as i have seen by looking at all three classes at different places they all operate the same.

You say it doesnt take long if you know what you are doing..The reason people go to dog training is because they have no idea what to do.The trainers have the ideas..not the owners..

So logically all dogs should be able to do what Berri achieved in the same amount of time? Using your method.

Unless they are on check collars of course

2 months of training from scratch is VERY good to be able to trial your dog.

[Mas1981]

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else.

In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them.

I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before.

I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.

Firstly im not attending these classes just listening in to hear what they have to say and how they operate.I went to see how the "others" train dogs.Never too old to learn new things

By team do you mean the training class or dog and owner? the training class in nationally accredited and they adhere to the rules of that organization so as i have seen by looking at all three classes at different places they all operate the same.

You say it doesnt take long if you know what you are doing..The reason people go to dog training is because they have no idea what to do.The trainers have the ideas..not the owners..

So logically all dogs should be able to do what Berri achieved in the same amount of time? Using your method.

Unless they are on check collars of course

2 months of training from scratch is VERY good to be able to trial your dog.

Wow from 0-trial in 2 months is not something I have heard of before, I have been working with my dog from the day I got him and he is one year old and no where near ready to trial. I must be a shocking trainer

Edited April 3, 2010 by Masons_mom

[Diva]

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience.

Depends on the reinforcement history and how well the response has been conditioned. I'm not 'purely positive', but the value of an individual reinforcement v level of distraction becomes a non-issue even at my level of expertise.

[dark angel]

You appear to be lumping all positive training into the one basket and making the assumption that when the distractions become greater than the rewards, positive methods fail. This is just not so! So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer. As I said before...positive is not permissive. The trainer quoted here allowed her dog to break a down stay several times....bad trainer!!! Not the dogs fault and punishing the dog for not doing what its obviously not trained/proofed to do would be unfair.

Its worth investigating the benefits of positive training with an open mind. BTW we are talking about starting dogs here in a normal pet class, not trying to reform aggressive dogs or dogs with behavioural problems. Positive has a place there too but that is for a different thread.

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc

I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction?

As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see.

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat.

so whats in the pudding???

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

seriously i am trying to view this method open mindedly.And trying not to repeat myself i will be going to watch the progress of these dogs for my benefit.And i will give credit due where its due and when its due.Various criterion will of course influence my judgements including time to train the dogs ,the reliability of the dogs and the type of dogs.

I might even for the fun of it use a new dog at our school and compare progress..that would be interesting maybe make a chart thingy comparing.I guess there would be a lot of factors that wouldnt make it a reliable comparison but hey for the hell of it i might just do it.Geez more work lol

[dark angel]

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else.

In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them.

I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before.

I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.

Firstly im not attending these classes just listening in to hear what they have to say and how they operate.I went to see how the "others" train dogs.Never too old to learn new things

By team do you mean the training class or dog and owner? the training class in nationally accredited and they adhere to the rules of that organization so as i have seen by looking at all three classes at different places they all operate the same.

You say it doesnt take long if you know what you are doing..The reason people go to dog training is because they have no idea what to do.The trainers have the ideas..not the owners..

So logically all dogs should be able to do what Berri achieved in the same amount of time? Using your method.

Unless they are on check collars of course

2 months of training from scratch is VERY good to be able to trial your dog.

Wow from 0-trial in 2 months is not something I have heard of before, I have been working with my dog from the day I got him and he is one year old and no where near ready to trial. I must be a shocking trainer

VERY VERY bad

[Erny]

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

I beg to differ on that assumption. I train my dog differently to how I teach (I train in drive). This is not suitable for every dog nor for every dog-owner/family. I have also had the privilege of knowledge that has permitted me to train as I mean to finish, from when my boy was a pup. Many people who come to class have inadvertantly trained their dogs in unwanted behaviours making the path of training not quite as clear nor easy. I might be working on a skill that is important to me and potentially but temporarily sacrificing something else for its sake. How would you know? Also, unless you've asked the trainer, how do you know how long the trainer has had his/her dog and/or what the dog's background is?

My previous (avatar) girl (bless her cotton socks) came to me as a 7yo. Fear aggressive to other dogs. Extremely fearful of people. Basic obedience skill level only. Her rehabilitation was the more important to me (and I believe, to her). She progressed a long, long way, but she was always, underneath it all, a nervous dog. Would you judge that of me? Her obedience skills improved no end, but I never did achieve a tight heel with her. For all the other things being so more important and necessary, I never really bothered with trying for a tighter heel than what she gave. Would I be judged for that too? Or would you be able to see how well she was able to cope with meeting other dogs (off or on lead) and commend me for that? But then, how could you know from whence she came? Without a bench mark to compare with you might think her ability around other dogs (which did not involve play and bore a preference, if she could have it, of being left alone by other dogs) to be somewhat less than ordinary. Would I be judged for that too, just by the glance you espy on the day/date you happened to roll up to look?

Why not ask the training school instructor/manager about the methods they use throughout the levels and what the expectations can/should be? Why not speak with one of the school's members who have achieved higher learning and ask them how they found it?

I'm not suggesting that you can't tell much by observing - of course you can and I think the school is being very generous in permitting you to watch so closely to the class that you are able to determine exactly what they are saying/teaching and why, and that they'd permit you to continue to visit, watch and learn without becoming a member. But I'm reading a lot of what are potential assumptions upon which judgements are being made here.

Not being defensive nor aggressive, if that's how it might seem. Just playing the devil's advocate. If you came to just one or even just two of the lessons I conduct you are likely to find fault with those too. The classes I give are progressive, so without seeing every one of them or at least without some essence of explanation, you wouldn't be able to observe one class and determine where it will go from there. Nor might you even if you saw two classes. Though I dare say that what is taught in those classes is likely to make sense to you provided you understand enough of training to be able to see forward of what we are doing.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Erny

[Longcoat]

'bedazzledx2' date='3rd Apr 2010 - 10:56 PM' post='4436926']

You appear to be lumping all positive training into the one basket and making the assumption that when the distractions become greater than the rewards, positive methods fail. This is just not so! So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer. As I said before...positive is not permissive. The trainer quoted here allowed her dog to break a down stay several times....bad trainer!!! Not the dogs fault and punishing the dog for not doing what its obviously not trained/proofed to do would be unfair.

Its worth investigating the benefits of positive training with an open mind. BTW we are talking about starting dogs here in a normal pet class, not trying to reform aggressive dogs or dogs with behavioural problems. Positive has a place there too but that is for a different thread.

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc

I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction?

As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see.

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat.

so whats in the pudding???

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

Seriously some of these "positive" training systems come up with so much garbage it's honestly laughable . What "guru" determined that you shouldn't say "NO" to your dog and what achievement has this "guru" earned better than others who do say "NO"???. Someone comes up with a theory that we shouldn't use check chains whilst the trainers of high performance sport dogs are using E Collars and prongs. Nothing of concrete evidence determines that a dog trained entirely of positive methods creates are more reliable dog than negative reinforcement or a combination of both.

[dark angel]

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

I beg to differ on that assumption. I train my dog differently to how I teach (I train in drive). This is not suitable for every dog nor for every dog-owner/family. I have also had the privilege of knowledge that has permitted me to train as I mean to finish, from when my boy was a pup. Many people who come to class have inadvertantly trained their dogs in unwanted behaviours making the path of training not quite as clear nor easy. I might be working on a skill that is important to me and potentially but temporarily sacrificing something else for its sake. How would you know? Also, unless you've asked the trainer, how do you know how long the trainer has had his/her dog and/or what the dog's background is?

My previous (avatar) girl (bless her cotton socks) came to me as a 7yo. Fear aggressive to other dogs. Extremely fearful of people. Basic obedience skill level only. Her rehabilitation was the more important to me (and I believe, to her). She progressed a long, long way, but she was always, underneath it all, a nervous dog. Would you judge that of me? Her obedience skills improved no end, but I never did achieve a tight heel with her. For all the other things being so more important and necessary, I never really bothered with trying for a tighter heel than what she gave. Would I be judged for that too? Or would you be able to see how well she was able to cope with meeting other dogs (off or on lead) and commend me for that? But then, how could you know from whence she came? Without a bench mark to compare with you might think her ability around other dogs (which did not involve play and bore a preference, if she could have it, of being left alone by other dogs) to be somewhat less than ordinary. Would I be judged for that too, just by the glance you espy on the day/date you happened to roll up to look?

Why not ask the training school instructor/manager about the methods they use throughout the levels and what the expectations can/should be? Why not speak with one of the school's members who have achieved higher learning and ask them how they found it?

I'm not suggesting that you can't tell much by observing - of course you can and I think the school is being very generous in permitting you to watch so closely to the class that you are able to determine exactly what they are saying/teaching and why, and that they'd permit you to continue to visit, watch and learn without becoming a member. But I'm reading a lot of what are potential assumptions upon which judgements are being made here.

Not being defensive nor aggressive, if that's how it might seem. Just playing the devil's advocate. If you came to just one or even just two of the lessons I conduct you are likely to find fault with those too. The classes I give are progressive, so without seeing every one of them or at least without some essence of explanation, you wouldn't be able to observe one class and determine where it will go from there. Nor might you even if you saw two classes. Though I dare say that what is taught in those classes is likely to make sense to you provided you understand enough of training to be able to see forward of what we are doing.

Point taken Erny....

[bedazzledx2]

What evidence do you require Longcoat?

'bedazzledx2' date='3rd Apr 2010 - 10:56 PM' post='4436926']

You appear to be lumping all positive training into the one basket and making the assumption that when the distractions become greater than the rewards, positive methods fail. This is just not so! So much depends on the trainer and their understanding of positive training. Good positive trainers teach the dog (without punishment) that the greater the distraction, the greater the potential for reward from their trainer and will focus even more on the trainer. As I said before...positive is not permissive. The trainer quoted here allowed her dog to break a down stay several times....bad trainer!!! Not the dogs fault and punishing the dog for not doing what its obviously not trained/proofed to do would be unfair.

Its worth investigating the benefits of positive training with an open mind. BTW we are talking about starting dogs here in a normal pet class, not trying to reform aggressive dogs or dogs with behavioural problems. Positive has a place there too but that is for a different thread.

What is the finished product of the training process that the OP has described???. Do you end up with a dog that responds to voice commands in a reliable fashion without a leash under high distraction???. Does the training centre demonstrate a dog's ability trained in these methods when completed???

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc

I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction?

As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see.

Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved?

Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat.

so whats in the pudding???

When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring

Seriously some of these "positive" training systems come up with so much garbage it's honestly laughable . What "guru" determined that you shouldn't say "NO" to your dog and what achievement has this "guru" earned better than others who do say "NO"???. Someone comes up with a theory that we shouldn't use check chains whilst the trainers of high performance sport dogs are using E Collars and prongs. Nothing of concrete evidence determines that a dog trained entirely of positive methods creates are more reliable dog than negative reinforcement or a combination of both.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

sounds like the one i went to and i left i was not impressed

In the last couple of weeks i have "sat in" on some dog training classes around my area just to see what others do.

I went to three actually.

The first thing i found surprising was that they had chairs and cute little mats for the dogs to sit on.Nice and comfy i thought.Cant see how one can train dogs sitting down but hey ill keep watching.

The dogs and owners began to arrive .EVERY dog was pulling the owner by their harness not one was walking/heeling.So they sat down in a circle on the chairs (the owners that is). Most dogs had calmed down by now still a few jumps up to the owner.Then a late commer arrived.A boisterous loud large breed.Immediately the owner was told to sit out of the circle as the dog would disrupt the class.So owner and dog are now segregated from the rest of the class.

Now i thought came the strange part.

The trainer went on ...Here we never tell the do NO,we dont use any harsh tones in our voice and we dont use anything which will hurt the dog.If it does something we dont want it to do we ignore it or distract it.Immediately i had visions of a dog its teeth around ones ankle and ignoring it mmmmmmm as i scratched my head.

But for behaviours we like, we give them a treat.This reinforces the good behaviours and the dog shouldnt do unwanted ones as it doesnt receive a treat.Mumblings of "spoilt lil Sh*ts" from my better half.

Through the hour lesson i noticed a few things.

Maybe im cynical ... but it seemed that some of the dogs had the owner trained? They would walk around a little then sit.... get treated.get up walk sit get treated.No command to sit just sit and get treated.It seemed like to me the dog knew that it could get treated by sitting in front of the owner on its own accord?Not because the owner told it to sit..just because it did.

On recalls ...a 10 metre lead let the dog wander/run off call it and pull it back treat it.Yes i thought seems good to me ..Until the trainer/teacher walked past and instead of the dog going to the owner it went to the trainer.Dog sat in front of trainer and she treated it !Not once did this happen but numerous times.I couldnt help but chuckle at getting a treat for doing the wrong thing.I was lost.

As it was getting late we thought we would amble home which brought us ohhh 15 metres from the dogs when walking.They were still doing recalls.One dog its owner holding the lead with two hands trying to stop the dog ,calling it to come to her,decided that we were more interesting that its owner it was actually pulling the owner towards us.

As we left with the words ringing in our ears ..."it was unfortunate that those people walked past as you were trying to recall him"

I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way.

This is more of an observation/statement rather than a question..

But the question i have is how does the dog know its done something wrong if you dont tell it?

can they work out something is a no no just because they dont get a treat?

Its ok to reprimand a child when it does something wrong yet not for a dog?

they say they treat their dogs humanely yet us humans say no and reprimand humans yet cant to dogs

seems almost a little unbalanced?

[angelsun]

We can dance around this topic forever and there will always be some that disagree. The reality is, and it is not often acknowledged by the purely positive trainers, is that they have dogs that are not able to be manipulated with this method. Trainers using check chains are not all about evil pain infliction, and not all owners know nothing and this is the reason they go to training class.

There are many methods that work, many variations within the methods and not one will work exclusively with all dogs, regardless of the brochures that are handed out to promote 'training school A' or 'B'.

I've had dogs in the past that require a heavier hand, and dogs that if you look at them crosswise they turn into water. Using the same, or even similar methods on these would result in a confused dog that didn't know the boundaries of what I expected.

As for trialing after two months...yes it's possible, and it doesn't have to be through positive reinforcement training. I've seen it with a good old fashioned check chain. I also had a mini aussie shepherd that after four classes could complete the requirements for a CD (in Canada) Again....check chain, BUT also food reward when needed but very little, and a ton of happy praise. So yes, it can be done to combine the two mentalities successfully. I've done it many times.

There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i totally agree with this. the training method i use depends on the dog and what works for the dog and i must keep an open mind if the dog and i are going to be successful.

We can dance around this topic forever and there will always be some that disagree. The reality is, and it is not often acknowledged by the purely positive trainers, is that they have dogs that are not able to be manipulated with this method. Trainers using check chains are not all about evil pain infliction, and not all owners know nothing and this is the reason they go to training class.

There are many methods that work, many variations within the methods and not one will work exclusively with all dogs, regardless of the brochures that are handed out to promote 'training school A' or 'B'.

I've had dogs in the past that require a heavier hand, and dogs that if you look at them crosswise they turn into water. Using the same, or even similar methods on these would result in a confused dog that didn't know the boundaries of what I expected.

As for trialing after two months...yes it's possible, and it doesn't have to be through positive reinforcement training. I've seen it with a good old fashioned check chain. I also had a mini aussie shepherd that after four classes could complete the requirements for a CD (in Canada) Again....check chain, BUT also food reward when needed but very little, and a ton of happy praise. So yes, it can be done to combine the two mentalities successfully. I've done it many times.

There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

[Kavik]

It sounds like a Delta trainer you have been going to watch.

[Prydenjoy]

There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

Amen to that!! Honestly, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with people who choose not to be hard on their dog! You CAN get results with either method, but NOT every pet owner is a good trainer, REGARDLESS of what method they use. So why jump on the band wagon laughing at the method, when really it is the trainer that is struggling? Some dogs trained positively will go through trials keeping their 200 points, if the method didn't work how would this be possible?

I don't know how Berri would have actually gone in a trial, but many of the triallers at the club were telling me I should have entered him because "he would have done well". Honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind. He had previously passed the puppy class a year earlier, but hadn't had any training in between (I was busy having a baby and unfortunately didn't spend as much time with him during that time as I would have liked, I never even got a baby sitter until I took him back to training!).

As for the class being chaos, you can get classes using all methods that are chaos, peoples timing is not good, they might not be following directions properly, their dogs are highly distracted (and yes, even dogs on check chains can get distracted!).

I have good reason to only train using positives, I personally don't agree with check chains but that's my opinion, you don't see me jumping on my band wagon and saying how the classes are laughable (there's nothing funny about it) and the the dogs are out of control (which many of them are) - And it's all because of the method! I grin and bear it. But if you have options (I don't), and it really bothers you THAT much that you have to come here to get it all off your chest, then the solution is easy DON'T GO! You say you want to see other peoples methods, but you clearly aren't being open minded. Rather than focusing on the worst stories (which you get in any class, regardless of method) why not (if you really have an open mind) find the best dogs, look at the relationship they have with the owner, how focused they are and dedicated. If you're not seeing this in any of the dogs I'm sorry, you're in with a bunch of lemons! Or you're being too critical... Also, not every training group is training for trialling, many are simply to provide a better connection with the dog and aim for a good companionship. Teaching how to communicate with the dogs etc. If all the dogs are pulling on the lead when they get there perhaps the owners don't actually mind? I used to let Berri pull me into training every week, because he was having fun, and that was the only thing I care about. Now he knows that if he wants to get anywhere the golden ticket is to have a loose leash, because if that leash isn't loose we ain't moving!