Dont Say No To Your Dog?

[Prydenjoy]

I teach positively, however I will correct when needed.

Which is why your dogs will work for verbal praise, it is the non positively trained dogs equivalent to a no reward marker - The dog knows that when it is being praised it is not about to get a correction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying dogs don't like being praised, just on the scale of things (in absense of any corrections) praise is generally not as potent as food or play, a walk, or an off leash run in the park, or any other number of things that are primary reinforcers to dogs.

My mum has a dog that will not work outside of the house for food, not because she doesn't like food, simply because she is stressed. Dogs wont eat or play when they are stressed, if your dog isn't eating or wanting to play it is something to think about whether your dog is stressed (yet a stressed dog will still respond in some level to punishers, which I guess is why some people insist they are the only way to train their dog, thus adding to the stress...).

[Cosmolo]

Jeanne- punishers can reduce stress too.

[Prydenjoy]

Jeanne- punishers can reduce stress too.

Can you give me an example?

I'm not saying that anyone here is stressing their dog, but I have seen instances when dogs have been severely punished to the point where they are hyperventilating, tail tucked between their legs, yet the dog is claimed to be "obedient" because it is doing what it has been told (or forced) to do. It is too easy to abuse power, I'm not saying that some people can't and don't apply it correctly, but on the same note it is silly to say that some people can't and don't use rewards correctly (even when the initial rate of reinforcement is high)

[huski]

Possibly not, but food rewards are given when actions are performed and not to build a so called drive in an attempt to get a dog to work better or faster as is often the belief.

Can I just clarify that ‘drive’ is just a descriptive term, some people use it and some don’t like it. It is NOT however, a “politically correct term" for training with food or toys. There is a huge difference between someone who rewards with food or toys and someone who actually works their dog in drive. A dog working in drive is using the lower cortex of their brain (the medulla) and they get a chemical reward (the release of endorphins) as well as a food/prey reward.

Some people may prefer different terms, but when I refer to my dog working in drive or being rewarded in drive I am talking about a lot more than simply giving her food. You can visibly see the difference in her when she’s in drive and when she isn’t. If food or prey items can’t be used to build drive I have no idea what I’ve been doing with my dog for the past 12 odd months

Building drive (or desire for a reward, if you prefer) in your dog does produce dogs who work better and faster, that’s a fact, not imagination.

[Cosmolo]

I have seen many many examples where an appropriate correction has reduced stress in a dog- i'll see if i can succinctly provide a few very different ones.

Dog One- has been inconsistently rewarded for jumping up. Extinction training has been attempted with the owner falling short before the behaviour has ceased. This now means the dogs behaviour continues for a much longer period of time with the stress level of the dog rising as a result. There is no opportunity to reward the dog at this point as the dog jumps at any given opportunity. Correction is given that stops the jumping AND the subsequent rising stress levels ( stress levels rising as the dog reaches the extinction burst etc) Dog stops jumping in 2 minutes rather than 20 and is then heavily rewarded.

In this case, its not that the extinction training would not have worked- because it would have if done correctly at this point. But that process is more stressful to the dog in this situation than providing a correction at the earliest possible time and thus providing a reward opportunity earlier.

I understand many people have experienced corrections given in anger- please don't asume though that all those who use corrections do this. Since becoming a trainer, i have never given a correction in anger and any client seen to be doing so is addressed (such as the gentleman who came to a class once with a rolled up newspaper ready and waiting ) In giving a correction, i am usually blocking a behaviour, thus asking the dog to be calmer in most cases. The dog is not going to be calm if my correction is angry and given while yelling, being rough or over the top.

Dog Two- my own dog Georgie who when brought home from the shelter as a 12 month old remains one of the most extreme cases of fear i have ever seen. Providing a correction to her to stop the panic bolting she did at every opportunity, allowed her to see that staying with us rather than running, meant that she would be safe. There was no way to decrease the intensity of the scary things- EVERYTHING was scary to this dog as soon as she became aware of it, even at great distance. The responses were the same at home and out, with or without her 'dog friends'. Blocking the panic bolt response allowed us to teach her there were other ways to stay safe. As soon as she would allow us to, we used rewards and conditioned responses- but we had to block the panic bolt first and the only way to do it was with a correction. The correction decreased her stress because it didn't allow her to go as far down the path of being terrified, working herself up to the point of no return which happened every time she ran. While she is still not completely 'normal' and never will be- she is a million times better than she used to be and anyone who met her in the beginning can attest to this.

Sorry for the long post

[kiesha09]

I have seen many many examples where an appropriate correction has reduced stress in a dog- i'll see if i can succinctly provide a few very different ones.

Dog One- has been inconsistently rewarded for jumping up. Extinction training has been attempted with the owner falling short before the behaviour has ceased. This now means the dogs behaviour continues for a much longer period of time with the stress level of the dog rising as a result. There is no opportunity to reward the dog at this point as the dog jumps at any given opportunity. Correction is given that stops the jumping AND the subsequent rising stress levels ( stress levels rising as the dog reaches the extinction burst etc) Dog stops jumping in 2 minutes rather than 20 and is then heavily rewarded.

In this case, its not that the extinction training would not have worked- because it would have if done correctly at this point. But that process is more stressful to the dog in this situation than providing a correction at the earliest possible time and thus providing a reward opportunity earlier.

I understand many people have experienced corrections given in anger- please don't asume though that all those who use corrections do this. Since becoming a trainer, i have never given a correction in anger and any client seen to be doing so is addressed (such as the gentleman who came to a class once with a rolled up newspaper ready and waiting ) In giving a correction, i am usually blocking a behaviour, thus asking the dog to be calmer in most cases. The dog is not going to be calm if my correction is angry and given while yelling, being rough or over the top.

Dog Two- my own dog Georgie who when brought home from the shelter as a 12 month old remains one of the most extreme cases of fear i have ever seen. Providing a correction to her to stop the panic bolting she did at every opportunity, allowed her to see that staying with us rather than running, meant that she would be safe. There was no way to decrease the intensity of the scary things- EVERYTHING was scary to this dog as soon as she became aware of it, even at great distance. The responses were the same at home and out, with or without her 'dog friends'. Blocking the panic bolt response allowed us to teach her there were other ways to stay safe. As soon as she would allow us to, we used rewards and conditioned responses- but we had to block the panic bolt first and the only way to do it was with a correction. The correction decreased her stress because it didn't allow her to go as far down the path of being terrified, working herself up to the point of no return which happened every time she ran. While she is still not completely 'normal' and never will be- she is a million times better than she used to be and anyone who met her in the beginning can attest to this.

Sorry for the long post

For dog one - what kind of correction was used to stop the jumping? (just curious really)

Dog two - Is she not just shutting down and appearing more normal? I know that with my own dog who used to exhibit this same behaviour it would have caused her to shut down not feel safe at all. The flight response was purely her way of reducing her stress. It was at an increased distance from what she was afraid of that counter conditioning could take place

[Aidan]

If the punisher is clearly linked to the behaviour and the dog does not feel that he cannot control the punisher, typically there is a brief period where salivary cortisol levels increase then they will return to baseline levels very quickly.

If the link between punisher and behaviour is even slightly ambiguous or other factors prevent a feeling of being able to avoid the punishing consequence, salivary cortisol levels will remain high in that situation and similar situations.

[Cosmolo]

Definitely not shutting down- we would have had to increase the distance to the point where she was not aware of the stimulus to not get the panic response initially- which would not have achieved anything at all. The panic bolting was not stress reducing for Georgie- it was stress increasing. The further along the behaviour sequence she went, the more stressed she became.

I am not saying its suitable for every dog- merely giving an example as asked. Georgie is a much more confident, much more relaxed dog than she was before and this has been achieved through a combo of corrections and positive reinforcement. Her previous owner had tried positive reinforcement only for the previous 3 months- with no improvement, hence her return to the shelter. There is no mistaking what she does now- vastly different and i would love to have before and after videos but unfortunately don't. There are still situations that would trigger the same behaviour but daily situations no longer do.

Dog one was given a collar correction but again- this would vary from dog to dog as we have had a number of dogs who would have a similar problem

ETA Agree Aidan- prediction and control are very important.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Aidan]

A reinforcer is defined solely by it's effect on behaviour, namely increasing or maintaining it. If praise [alone] is increasing or maintaining behaviour, it is a reinforcer. Food is commonly used because all organisms have evolved to work for food, dogs are not the single exception who get their dinner just for existing (that honour goes to Paris Hilton, who is not particularly well behaved).

There need not be an expectation of any particular reinforcer for a behaviour to continue once it has been conditioned.

There is a pervasive myth that reinforcers need to be "weaned" which is unsupported by evidence. If you reinforce a behaviour 50 times in a row then skip one time the behaviour does not cease straight away. It is actually quite difficult to extinguish a previously reinforced behaviour, and different schedules of reinforcement can produce extremely persistent behaviours.

[Cosmolo]

Aidan

[Prydenjoy]

Sorry for the long post

No need to apologise, I did ask

Good thing you have such good timing, not everyone does

[Cosmolo]

I agree- although, i have many owners who also have good timing and can deliver a correction to their dogs when needed. No one training method suits every dog and/ or owner. If we spent less time trying to put techniques into boxes of 'good' and 'bad' and more time tailoring techniques to individuals, dog training would be a whole lot better!

[kezzzza]

I have done "Delta training" for the last two years. Due to my work roster it was the only class I could attend often enough for my dogs to do some sort of training. What a waste of my time it has been. The food reward is not dropped off after the beginner class and check chains were a dirty word, slip collars only or harnesses.

I have the two Sib's angelsun mentioned previously and in the 3 - 4 weeks we have been training with the check chain my kids walk beside me instead of pulling when they have had the slip collar on.

I have been the dog/handler on the outer of the group not because my boy was a distraction but because one of the other dogs in the class had an issue with bigger dogs and having a couple of dogs between us was still distracting for the little shih/maltese cross, so instead of trying to correct the behavior in the little shih x my boy was removed from the group. The fully qualified delta trainer alway had some remark about trying to train Sib's and was even overheard saying "arnt you glad your not training this dog".

There is a border collie that is lead aggressive and their cure for that is to ignore the problem and give the dog plenty of room so you don't upset him.

I no longer take my dogs to that class as they are responding better in our new class and are getting weaned off the treats, not as many being used and they are not getting them for everything they do, unlike before when if they looked at you they got a treat. If they sat without you asking they got a treat.

I would not recommend CGC Delta course to anyone

[Prydenjoy]

Sorry to hear you've had such a bad experience kezzzza. Seems like there is a need for more positive classes with NON Delta people, so that the method can be taught properly!

[kayla1]

I have done "Delta training" for the last two years. Due to my work roster it was the only class I could attend often enough for my dogs to do some sort of training. What a waste of my time it has been. The food reward is not dropped off after the beginner class and check chains were a dirty word, slip collars only or harnesses.

I have the two Sib's angelsun mentioned previously and in the 3 - 4 weeks we have been training with the check chain my kids walk beside me instead of pulling when they have had the slip collar on.

I have been the dog/handler on the outer of the group not because my boy was a distraction but because one of the other dogs in the class had an issue with bigger dogs and having a couple of dogs between us was still distracting for the little shih/maltese cross, so instead of trying to correct the behavior in the little shih x my boy was removed from the group. The fully qualified delta trainer alway had some remark about trying to train Sib's and was even overheard saying "arnt you glad your not training this dog".

There is a border collie that is lead aggressive and their cure for that is to ignore the problem and give the dog plenty of room so you don't upset him.

I no longer take my dogs to that class as they are responding better in our new class and are getting weaned off the treats, not as many being used and they are not getting them for everything they do, unlike before when if they looked at you they got a treat. If they sat without you asking they got a treat.

I would not recommend CGC Delta course to anyone

I had a similar experience when I took one of my dogs to an eight week course run by a Delta trainer. The trainer was unable to help with my dog's issues and for the entire eight weeks I had to work away from the group, with no improvement by the end of the course. I felt like I had wasted my time.