Dog Attack -> Potential Bsl Convert

[persephone]

As for picking up your pup - I once picked up an adult lab I was training, when we were attacked by a very determined GSD. One just reacts in those circumstances- and you did what you thought was the right/safe thing

The more I hear of parks, and dog parks in particular, the more the idea worries me I would think they would be places frequented by people who have difficulties walking/controlling their dog/s- the idea being they can let them off to run at the park

[Bulldust]

As the owner and breeder of a 'Bully breed' i just want to put in my two cents worth.

As a witness to sudden attacks i can tell you dogs wanting to kill will do damage in a split second of grabbing the victim, especially to a small pup with nice soft puppy skin, and its takes a huge effort to get them away from it, let alone picking the victim up whilst the attacker is still free. (note- i would have picked it up too im just stating once picked up your hands cant then fight the dog off , i have picked up an male entire Bull Terrier years ago when we were rushed by a street mutt- looked like kelpie x)

Why wouldnt you report this lady after she promised the dog would be kept on lead from now on then shortly after you see him off lead again?

Bull breeds seem to be the thing at the moment so every tom dick and harry have them and breed them. So they're everywhere. What happens if they are banned? People move on to other breeds, soon every tom dick and harry have another type and everyone has one and then attacks will happen and they'll be banned too.

I dont think i could choose a larger breed of dog who id be happier to confront in 'kill mode'... i think any dog in that mindset be it a Staffy or Labrador or GSD i would be terrified of, i cant imagine myself thanking my lucky stars that the dog who just attacked me or my dog was a Rottie and not a bull breed

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Same thing repeats here over and over. People post and say my dog\pup was attacked in some kind of offleash situation, then they receive mixed messages from members.

"By rights" you should be able to take your dog there and not have it attacked.

Now forget about that. Reality is as follows.

An 11 week old pup is way over its head. 95% of the dogs you encounter are capable of hurting or killing him.

Dogs are NOT supposed to run around together and socialize. This is a fantasy dreamed up by some in society today. Dogs are said to be social in the sense that in the wild they run in packs, it does not mean strange dogs "socializing". By taking the dog and allowing it to be exposed to an offleash situation with other dogs you are putting it at risk.

Now i'm not saying don't do it, i'm just saying do not blame others if there is a problem. In combination with the nature of dogs, we also know that irresponsible owners are frequent, so there should be no ground for complaining if your dog is attacked at an offleash park the risks are clear.

[conztruct]

BUT IS YOUR DOG VACCINATED FULLY AT 11 WEEKS ??

You avoid the emails ??

What has that to do with the topic? It's about her pup being attacked, not vaccination. Why are you hassling the OP with emails?

Thank you!

Please, if you want to talk about vaccination, start another thread. I love my dog very very much. My boyfriend is still yelling at me for grabbing him when the dog was trying to attack him, because he thought I could be attacked, but I just didn't even give it any thought at the time. I don't consider myself ignorant of the risks, but there are more risks than things like parvo when you own a breed like a doberman, and the vet and breeder have told me it is more risky to keep him inside until after he is 4 months old, which would be when his vaccinations would be complete. My vet told me in his 30 years, he has heard of one case of parvo in the eastern suburbs and in that case, the dog had been in Blacktown the day before. He said the risk was extremely low to nil. On the other hand, he told me he might get Kennel Cough, but that the effects of that would not compare to the effects of keeping him isolated at this crucial period in his development. All about minimizing risk I guess, and I think you would have to agree that reasonable minds could reach different conclusions on the matter. But please don't mention it anymore in this particular thread, it is OT.

I was nowhere near a road, I was nowhere near anything but a pond and grass. Like I've already said, my puppy was on my feet at the time, which is where he sits whether he's on the lead or not. I believe I have good recall with him, given that even when people offer him food at their picnics (because he is the cutest damn pup you've ever seen) he will not go further than about 2m away from me, and I have to approach other people first before he will. When he is scared, he tries to climb up me. I don't know, you guys may have a very valid point about how I should have him on the lead at all times, but, it's still not relevant to this particular incident, because the issue was not that he was too far away for me to help, it was that the dog that was aggressive was not controlled.

You guys can spend all day trying to determine my agenda if you don't want to take me on face value. I do not post often on these forums because I have seen what can happen to people. The whole point of my post was to firstly vent off some of the lasting anxiety I had from the attack, but then also, on reflection, I felt like after all these years, I could potentially understand why some people actually wanted BSL, and why people will make the distinction between different breeds.

I do think an owner would have trouble getting a large breed off another dog, but, I do think the dog itself would have better luck with a huge, slow newf over a pittbull. I was thinking about it more today, and thinking about all the dogs who have tried to attack my puppy so far. There were a few small things, which we all just ignored, there was the labrador yesterday at lunch which wouldn't stop barking at him but who knows how far it would have taken it, and then about a week ago, there were 2 large staffy type dogs. They were on a lead, but pulling out in front, lunging at my dog. I say large because I thought staffies were only meant to be about 20kg, and these ones were definitely larger than that. There are a couple of gsds in my area, all very well behaved. There is a rottie who is also well-behaved. I don't know. In my area at least, all the incompetent owners seem to own the small fluffy things, and the bully breeds. Looking out the window this morning, another large staffy looking thing, pulling out in front of its owner on the walk.

The bully breeds and crosses are often considered small-medium sized dogs, and hence owned out of convenience by people who would not want a large dog. But they are not comparable to the other small breeds in terms of power.

I am going to try and report the lady today, I remember some of the members of her pack, the male steel grey bully thing at the front, a border collie cross, a brindle large female something, a small tan and white maltese looking thing and a few other small-med sized things. You know it's interesting isn't it? All in the same pack, all with the same crap owner, but only one of them attacked my puppy, no questions asked, and that one just happened to be the bully breed.

What a terrible situation - hope you are your dog are ok.

I agree with your course of action to report the owner. I can't speak for everyone else on here but I think the suggestion that it is not wise to have your young boy off-lead out in public is not a question of his behaviour and the control you have over him but the risk of what else is out there that you have no control over - such as what happened here.

It's not a matter of blame as in an ideal world you should be able to walk your dog off-lead in an off-lead area....unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that own dogs who make this impossible because they don't have the control over theirs (yet they still take them out off lead - yikes!!!!).

In my humble opinion, this lady should be reported as she was totally negligent allowing her dog to be off-lead when it had already been reported and she knew that it could behave in this way. It's the owner to blame here, not the breed of dog, and she should be held totally responsible - her pleading was a nice little guilt trip using her dog to try and avoid accountability for her stupid actions - BSL isn't going to solve the problem of stupid owners. We have legislation that people shouldn't speed in cars - has it reduced the instance of this happening though?

Hope it all works out.

[poodlefan]

What I don't get about the OP's post is why the DOG gets the blame for being offlead? What's the dog's breed got to do with the fact that its owner can't control it?

BSL was never intended to prevent dog aggression and it is useless to prevent dogs hurting people. Effwit owners own all kinds of dogs and if anyone thinks only certain breeds of dogs would intend harm to a puppy, they'd better carefully reconsider that view.

The irony of the OP's breed of choice being a target for BSL in some places wasn't lost on me.

Edited April 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jodi1981]

In my view if you take any dog to an offleash park and there is trouble then look in the mirror for who is to blame,

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but if I take my dog to an offleash park, have it offleash (as it is allowed to be), it's playing nicely, romping in the grass etc. and then is suddenly attacked by another dog then it's my fault??

[Jodi1981]

I don't usually play 'name the breed' but in the interests of showing the diversity of attacking dog breeds, may I add:

jack russell

rottweiler

ACD

another BC

another lab

various mixed breeds

and a pair of saint bernards acting in tandem

Holy Dooley, I can imagine a pair of aggresive Saint Bernards would be pretty damn scary

[tarope]

I feel sorry for your pup, but not you and I think your just as much to blame as the other person.

Why would you take an 11wk old pup to a park and allow it to walk off lead ;) it's an accident waiting to happen and have you not heard of Parvo. :D

All dogs must be on a lead in public, so please don't blame other dogs or breeds for their irresponsible owners.

You clearly have no idea of what BSL is all about, maybe you should do a little research then you might not be so quick to support it.

Just one more thing why did you choose a Dobermann ?

Well, it was an off-lead area... But not the main one in the park where all the dogs are. Aside from me, I saw only one couple having a picnic, the woman with the pack, and then as I was leaving, a couple with an oodle cross thingy. And I was there for over an hour.

Very familiar with BSL. Didn't say I now support it, said I would likely describe my position as on the fence, because nothing else is being done to control who can and can't own powerful breeds, and so I believe the current situation is dangerous. As I've already said, I think the ideal situation would be for dog ownership to be more regulated. But that seems to have been put into the too hard box, so you tell me what should happen.

I chose a dobe because I wanted an intelligent, large breed, not much fur, not bred traditionally for hunting or herding purposes. Deterrent security wise. Very affectionate and loving. Capable of accompanying me on my jogs and bike rides. Very good looking. I have spent about 3 years preparing for one, visited several breeders, read heaps of books, internet pages etc. Chose the one I have based on his parents - very intelligent, bred to dobe standard in terms of temperament as well as looks. I am fortunate in that I can commit a lot of time to developing the puppy, guaranteed for at least the first 2 years of his life, and I know I will always be able to keep him financially. That's why I waited so long before going out and getting one. You're more than welcome to meet him lol and see for yourself what a terrible job I'm doing of raising him...

The reason I asked why a Dobe, is because some people think Dobes are vicious guard dogs as seen on TV when they are just big sooks. Do you realize you now own a large powerful breed and can't sit on the fence as you say with BSL.

Do you realize the Dobermann came from the Rottweiler and other breeds and when your Dobe grows up people in the street who have never owned a Dobe will tell you how dangerous and vicious they are. People will say nothing is being done to control the ownership of this dangerous breed, the R$PCA and the Media jump in and the next thing you know the breed is banned even though your dog and thousands of others have done nothing wrong. -- This is BSL it blames the breed instead of the irresponsible owner.

I owned a Dobe for 10yrs and I know what some people are like, some lines of Dobes and Rotties are susceptible to Parvo even when vaccinated so please be careful and tell your vet Parvo is not just in Blacktown it's world wide.

[Leithy]

So sorry to hear about this incident- it must have been very scary and a giant stick is needed for the lady who had her dog off lead when it has been reported twice....

Does she realize that the dog could kill if the owner wasn't strong enough or quick enough??

Every time I pop in to read the threads there are always more stories about people and their pets being rushed, or attacked, and it is always sad to read. I just hope no DOL member or dog owner loses their beloved pet like this.

I have never been rushed by another dog with my 2 girls, I have been attacked by dogs however and it is a scary experience.

I hope your Dobe puppy recovers ok and doesn't develop any aggression I personally would love a dobe puppy to raise, I am a strong believer in how you raise and treat the dog has a very big influence on behaviour in general.

Hope the silly lady realizes what could happen and something is done about it...

[all that glitters]

I would be changing vets if I was you, what an idiot to be basically telling you it's fine to take your unvaccinated pup outdoors in a dog park!! ;) Google parvo and you won't want to risk your pup getting it.

Also PLEASE report that woman ASAP, how can you even have to think about it?? Get her reported NOW!

[poodlefan]

Every time I pop in to read the threads there are always more stories about people and their pets being rushed, or attacked, and it is always sad to read. I just hope no DOL member or dog owner loses their beloved pet like this.

Too late Leithy. At least one member has lost a dog like this. I've been luckier.. only a vet bill.

[jules1]

Puppys of his age are quite often really good at sticking close by because they are babies and they need "pack" support. Usually at around 14 to 16 weeks they start to become a little braver and try their independence. This means that will start to explore a little further on their own, quite often ignoring your calls to return as they are starting the very beginning of their adolecent like faze of puppy hood. It is not unusual for a puppy of that age who has never gone away from it's owner to start giving the two finger salute whilst running or at least jogging in the opposite direction.

They do not know how to recall, especially under distraction, as they have not yet been taught what a recall is.

Dobermanns - especially males- do not have a reliable recall until they are at least 18 months and have be regularly trained for it.

As the owner of an almost 15 week old male Dobe puppy, I have to agree with the above about recall at this age. He still doesn't go more than a few feet away from us at the moment (we've only had him a bit over 2 weeks though) - but he has absolutely no recall whatsoever which means we cannot and do not take him anywhere offleash. But having only had female dobes before - the part about it taking 18 months for males is daunting!! lol

It is a shame as we only live a few minutes from a great dog beach, but he is still a bit scared of other dogs at the moment so apart from the worry about him running off, I want to reduce the chance of having bad experiences with other dogs as much as possible as the last thing I want is a dog-aggressive dobie. His only close interaction with other dogs (on-leash) is at puppy school.

As far as this incident with the "bully" type dog and BSL etc - I can only agree with the majority of others that there is no such thing as a bad breed - only bad owners. Any dog can be dog/people aggressive if it is not raised correctly - and to be honest, I have met far more small dogs with bad attitudes than the larger breeds as they are often less trained than the big dogs (This is not aimed at small dog owners on DOL, as you wouldn't be on here if you were irresponsible!). ;)

I was raised with Staffies, and my experience is that they are very loving, family-oriented dogs - so your comments about "staffy things" is very unfair to the breed and responsible owners. In fact your posts about any other dogs in general often refers to them as being "things" - You come across as not really liking any other dogs at all. I think the only "things" in all of these incidents are the owners - particularly the bogun ones who buy the rotties/gsd/dobie/bull terrier type dogs as they think they are tough, and give the rest of us a bad name. You really need to report this woman as soon as possible, especially as she has been reported twice before - this is not a one-off unexpected incident for her.

I am very sorry that your dobie puppy was scared and hope that he doesn't suffer any long-term anxiety about it. As soon as his vaccinations are done - will you be taking him to puppy school? My little guy was a bit overwhelmed to start with, but then he ended up having a really good time and you could see his confidence improve - definitely worth going.

[laeral]

Sorry to go OT

BUT Jules1 that puppy of yours in your sig is just gorgeous ;) :D

I love Dobe puppies!

[Bluefairy]

Lisa,

I am so sorry your pup and you had to experience this. It sets the mind for you both on it may happen again....and according yto you it already has several times...

I was thinking about it more today, and thinking about all the dogs who have tried to attack my puppy so far. There were a few small things, which we all just ignored, there was the labrador yesterday at lunch which wouldn't stop barking at him but who knows how far it would have taken it, and then about a week ago, there were 2 large staffy type dogs. They were on a lead, but pulling out in front, lunging at my dog. I say large because I thought staffies were only meant to be about 20kg, and these ones were definitely larger than that. There are a couple of gsds in my area, all very well behaved. There is a rottie who is also well-behaved. I don't know. In my area at least, all the incompetent owners seem to own the small fluffy things, and the bully breeds. Looking out the window this morning, another large staffy looking thing, pulling out in front of its owner on the walk.

I have a 10wk old Pug pup and there is no way in hell she is going out of the house or back yard until she has been fully vaccinated and will never be off leash until she is fully trained and even then you just never know. Your pup has been nearly attacked lots of time, and the pup has obviously been out and about for a while, so why are you still risking your pups life? I just don't understand your reasoning at all

Your vet is an absolute moron, but its your choice....your choice to allow your pup to be put at risk of death or maiming, your choice to set up fearful traits in your dog, your choice to raise your dobe as you see fit...which as a fully grown adult may also lunge and attack other pups and dogs, simply because it was done to them.....

BF

[poodlefan]

Bluefairy:

I have a 10wk old Pug pup and there is no way in hell she is going out of the house or back yard until she has been fully vaccinated

Not even to puppy school?

Or to other people's houses?

I understand why you'd keep her away from unknown dogs and public places but there are ways to socialise safely during the first critical socialisation period that ends before vaccinations are over.

Uncontrolled socialisation means you cannot keep the experiences positive. However no socialisation isn't a good thing either.

Edited April 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[huski]

Bluefairy:

I have a 10wk old Pug pup and there is no way in hell she is going out of the house or back yard until she has been fully vaccinated

Not even to puppy school?

Or to other people's houses?

I understand why you'd keep her away from unknown dogs and public places but there are ways to socialise safely during the first critical socialisation period that ends before vaccinations are over.

Uncontrolled socialisation means you cannot keep the experiences positive. However no socialisation isn't a good thing either.

Was just about to post the same thing PF. It's about balance IMO, I would never take a baby pup to a dog park or other areas strange dogs frequent but by the same token I take my pups out and about from day one to ensure I socialize them adequately in their critical period (8-12 weeks).

Edited April 2, 2010 by huski

[Bluefairy]

PF ~ Living rurally sucks sometimes, the only Puppy school in the area is too far away. I only have a daughter who I can go to, but she has 2 Australian Terrier pups (6-7mths old) who I feel might gang up on her....they can be food aggressive, and they fight between themselves....I just don't want her to get caught in between that. Other than that there is no one else. I have met a lady that lives in the next town, and when she gets her puppy we are going to have a puppy play date. There's just not a lot more I can do....

BF

[huski]

BF, socialising your puppy is about more than letting it meet other dogs. It's about exposing it to lots of new experiences and giving them a positive value and teaching your pup how to deal with new experiences/situations. This can be anything from meeting a variety of people, being need traffic, riding in the car, going to the vets, meeting children, being near the vacuum cleaner when it's on, and a million other things.

[blacklabrador]

In my view if you take any dog to an offleash park and there is trouble then look in the mirror for who is to blame,

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but if I take my dog to an offleash park, have it offleash (as it is allowed to be), it's playing nicely, romping in the grass etc. and then is suddenly attacked by another dog then it's my fault??

Pretty ridiculous statement Lo Pan.

I had my T bone at the beach last week. Off leash beach, plenty of space and a few dogs walking up and down with their owners. T bone was retrieving a stick into the waves. Having a wonderful time, we were minding our own business. Two dogs were walking along with their owner both boxer/ridgie/mastiff type crosses. Both left their owner and pursued T bone into the water who was returning with a stick. One grabbed the stick out of his mouth which he surrendered without protest (he is a gentleman) and then the other attacked him. WTF is with that? Goddamn bullies! The attacking dog backed off when I approached them with my arm over my head yelling at it to bugger off. He came away with a puncture wound in his head which I didn't find until we got home but I sure as hell would have had a piece of the owner had I found it at the time.

So my question to you is - where can I legally and safely take my dog to swim?

[all that glitters]

BF, socialising your puppy is about more than letting it meet other dogs. It's about exposing it to lots of new experiences and giving them a positive value and teaching your pup how to deal with new experiences/situations. This can be anything from meeting a variety of people, being need traffic, riding in the car, going to the vets, meeting children, being near the vacuum cleaner when it's on, and a million other things.

You want to expose them to every possible situation when they are young cos it will only be harder when they are older!