Dog Attack -> Potential Bsl Convert

[hortfurball]

*snip*

I would be rushing out to purchase a tattslotto ticket and then belting myself over the head with a rolled up newspaper.

Lisa, sorry about what happened to your pup, hope there are no long lasting effects on his temperament, but as others have mentioned I really think it is taking a big risk having an 11 week old pup off leash, regardless of previous good behaviour he's still not 'proven'. There is no way you could anticipate the reaction of an 11 week old pup should an unexpected incident occur. If you hadn't happened to pick him up he might have sped off in fear straight under the wheels of a car. Too damn risky in my opinion.

I'm also curious about his vaccination status.

*snip*

You should report the dog to the council. If he has attacked before, a description will probably suffice. Whether it does or not, an ACO should be in the park patrolling, to find him. And if the council seizes him, at least he wont be attacking anyone else.

Although you said you would not report, SHE said she would keep him on lead, and then went back on her word immediately. How dreadfully irresponsible.

This woman's responsibility was to keep this dog on lead, and away from other dogs. She failed to do that, so now, the law must make her.

I agree. I wouldn't want it on my head the next time he attacks, and he almost certainly will, as his owner is clearly doing nothing to prevent it.

*snip*

As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently.

I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) :

Labrador

Boxer

Border Collie

Kelpie

Maltese x Shi Tzu...

I don't usually play 'name the breed' but in the interests of showing the diversity of attacking dog breeds, may I add:

jack russell

rottweiler

ACD

another BC

another lab

various mixed breeds

and a pair of saint bernards acting in tandem

Lisa, stubborn and muscular this dog may have been, but imagine trying to move a pair of 80 kilo saint bernards - physically impossible due to the fact that they weigh more than your average woman. One of them thankfully responded to a commanding tone of voice, the other completely ignored me and all I could do was release my dog's leash to give him half a chance to defend himself without me or the leash getting in the way. Thankfully my boy somehow managed to 'hold' the other dog and I stepped between, at which stage the irresponsible owner finally decided to come over.

If BSL is taken to its ultimate conclusion, nobody will be allowed to own any dogs of a certain build, history or over a certain size. Say goodbye to staffords, bernese mountain dogs, great danes, newfs, malamutes, dobermanns, rottweilers, GSDs, pointers, most of the sighthounds, pretty much anything from the mastiff group, rhodesian ridgebacks, weimeranas etc etc

I'm sorry but I just don't warm to little lap dogs the way I do to large silly oafs and I really hope there never comes a day when we go to choose a dog and are asked which of the only twenty or so breeds remaining we would like...all of them under knee height.

Oh and if you like your dobermanns, better think twice about supporting BSL because the dobes will be a casualty as soon as they've got rid of the bull breeds.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries

They also said they just picked the puppy up, if it was that strong & vicious, surely it wouldn't have let go of the puppy.

Sorry, but I smell a rat.

Good point. When my girls had a fight, I picked up Ebony ('cos she was smaller) and her teeth were still embedded in Ella's face - there was no way she was letting go willingly. Even picking up the attacking dog can't make them let go if they're really determined.

Longcoat, if bull breeds are banned, the undesirable owners (studded collar brigade) will simply move on to rotties, dobes and GSDs and that will blow your theory of the owners of these dogs being more responsible out of the water.

BTW, Kuges has studs on his collar. A single row of small ones though - it's his 'bling'. :D

[Wazzat Xolo]

Lisa

Itas a good story

BUT IS YOUR DOG VACCINATED FULLY AT 11 WEEKS ??

You avoid the emails ??

Something here appears not quite right, call me cynical but thats my opinion!

You state you CARE about your dog and would be devastated if anything hapened well taking an 11 week old puppy out in public is a sure fire way to expose it to a lot more than wandering dogs.

Take some responsibility at least!!

Good luck with your puppy and walking him off lead!! I hope he stays healthy too.

You should have reported her to the Rangers Office in the park. Go and make a complaint tomorrow (at the rear of the restaurant).

No-one should be walking a "pack" off lead. If she is a dog walker that is illegal - as I think the law is 1 dog walker per two dogs?

If your puppy has any bite wounds it should be taken to a vet as they can get infected easily.

I have checked him very thoroughly, he has no wounds thank god. I don't know what to say, but really I think it's likely his worst injury is from me lifting him up by his collar, but I just didn't have a choice.

They were all her dogs. I think I will report her then, because I don't want to have to constantly worry about running into her, and yeah, I agree with what someone else said - I would be devastated if my puppy was injured or killed when someone could have prevented it by reporting the dangerous dog.

I feel very sad that it may result in her losing her dog, but more than anything I just really hope that after today, she realises it's her fault.

[sas]

BSL aside, report this lady because A) Her dog attacked your dog B) He has already been reported twice before - he will now be labelled a Dangerous Dog an she will have no choice but to handle him as a Dangerous Dog should.

Whatever you do, do not stop socialising your dog with other dogs, ever your ever feel as you though you want to avoid get a Behaviouruist to go with you.

[Crisovar]

Any large Breed of dog in full on attack mode would be very hard to stop, please don't fool yourself that your Dobe would be any different. If things went bad, do you really think you would find it easy to pull your dog off??

Owners of any breed have to ensure that their dog is never a threat to anyone,but for many of the large breeds as owners we also have to protect them from what the public "fear" they may do as well.

Did you know that Dobes are baby killers, that GSD just turn and attack their families these are common furfies that are out there in the public mind now. Your perception of the type of dog that attacked your pup is the same.

To stop the brainless killing that is BSL we have to change the mindset of people, and sorry you are one of them.

I rescue, and everytime I rescue a small cute fluffy or similar I get an overwhelming chorus of sympathetic voices, and mutterings about how people are cruel etc etc.

My latest rescue is a beautiful, intelligent GSD, and the reaction to her is totally different, including "you should have left her be PTS".

I find that very very sad.

People are the reason we have BSL, and people are the reason it will continue, not the dogs.

[gillybob]

My dog Bob was attacked by a pair of labradors, he was an adult at the time.

It caused him so much anxiety, its only now we can walk without him looking behind all the time.

Report the women and keep away from dog parks especially with a pup.

If not for the other dogs, just to keep the pup safe from disease.

[Nic oh lah]

Any dog has the capability to be aggressive - you really think you'd have more of a chance to defend yourself from a Rotty, GSD, Malamute, Ridgeback, another Dobe? You're kidding yourself. The shape of the dog does not make it more determined or harder to defend from.

As someone who's bringing home a new puppy today i know i'll not be taking him to parks before his 12week vaccinations or for walks in strange parks where i don't know the dogs as i'd be VERY concerned about influencing him badly in his fear period, which he'll almost be in at 11weeks.

Until he's older and has some kind of recall i won't be taking him ANYWHERE off leash unless i'm meeting specifically with dog's i know and trust (eg a DOL meet) and puppy school. I would be terrfied to end up with a puppy that's fearful and dog aggressive for the rest of its life because of my lack of patience when he's little.

That said I think you now have a duty of care to report this person.

[gareth]

BUT IS YOUR DOG VACCINATED FULLY AT 11 WEEKS ??

You avoid the emails ??

What has that to do with the topic? It's about her pup being attacked, not vaccination. Why are you hassling the OP with emails?

[raz]

Report it, Lisa. Ring the ranger first thing on tuesday morning if you havent already done so. Poor little baby dobe, and I totally understand how shaken up it made you.

[Erny]

I'm not going to go and support BSL, but, if I'm honest, I'd probably say I'm based on the fence now.

I can't make you change your feelings, but while you are "sitting on the fence", remember that BSL has the capacity and strong likelihood of affecting your breed of choice too. Dobes have been in the spot-light. So have my breed of choice. So have a multitude of other breed choices.

I am inclined to agree with the chants of others in recommending you report the owner of the 'offending' dog. Going from what you say she isn't a responsible dog owner. It is these people who do make it so that the dogs (all breeds) cop the wrap (your swing of sentiment is case in point) and unfortunately in her case, her dog is likely to cop it. But allowing these people to continue their irresponsible behaviour only bodes bad for everyone else and their dogs, no matter how responsible they are.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Erny

[tarope]

I feel sorry for your pup, but not you and I think your just as much to blame as the other person.

Why would you take an 11wk old pup to a park and allow it to walk off lead it's an accident waiting to happen and have you not heard of Parvo.

All dogs must be on a lead in public, so please don't blame other dogs or breeds for their irresponsible owners.

You clearly have no idea of what BSL is all about, maybe you should do a little research then you might not be so quick to support it.

Just one more thing why did you choose a Dobermann ?

[LisaB85]

BUT IS YOUR DOG VACCINATED FULLY AT 11 WEEKS ??

You avoid the emails ??

What has that to do with the topic? It's about her pup being attacked, not vaccination. Why are you hassling the OP with emails?

Thank you!

Please, if you want to talk about vaccination, start another thread. I love my dog very very much. My boyfriend is still yelling at me for grabbing him when the dog was trying to attack him, because he thought I could be attacked, but I just didn't even give it any thought at the time. I don't consider myself ignorant of the risks, but there are more risks than things like parvo when you own a breed like a doberman, and the vet and breeder have told me it is more risky to keep him inside until after he is 4 months old, which would be when his vaccinations would be complete. My vet told me in his 30 years, he has heard of one case of parvo in the eastern suburbs and in that case, the dog had been in Blacktown the day before. He said the risk was extremely low to nil. On the other hand, he told me he might get Kennel Cough, but that the effects of that would not compare to the effects of keeping him isolated at this crucial period in his development. All about minimizing risk I guess, and I think you would have to agree that reasonable minds could reach different conclusions on the matter. But please don't mention it anymore in this particular thread, it is OT.

I was nowhere near a road, I was nowhere near anything but a pond and grass. Like I've already said, my puppy was on my feet at the time, which is where he sits whether he's on the lead or not. I believe I have good recall with him, given that even when people offer him food at their picnics (because he is the cutest damn pup you've ever seen) he will not go further than about 2m away from me, and I have to approach other people first before he will. When he is scared, he tries to climb up me. I don't know, you guys may have a very valid point about how I should have him on the lead at all times, but, it's still not relevant to this particular incident, because the issue was not that he was too far away for me to help, it was that the dog that was aggressive was not controlled.

You guys can spend all day trying to determine my agenda if you don't want to take me on face value. I do not post often on these forums because I have seen what can happen to people. The whole point of my post was to firstly vent off some of the lasting anxiety I had from the attack, but then also, on reflection, I felt like after all these years, I could potentially understand why some people actually wanted BSL, and why people will make the distinction between different breeds.

I do think an owner would have trouble getting a large breed off another dog, but, I do think the dog itself would have better luck with a huge, slow newf over a pittbull. I was thinking about it more today, and thinking about all the dogs who have tried to attack my puppy so far. There were a few small things, which we all just ignored, there was the labrador yesterday at lunch which wouldn't stop barking at him but who knows how far it would have taken it, and then about a week ago, there were 2 large staffy type dogs. They were on a lead, but pulling out in front, lunging at my dog. I say large because I thought staffies were only meant to be about 20kg, and these ones were definitely larger than that. There are a couple of gsds in my area, all very well behaved. There is a rottie who is also well-behaved. I don't know. In my area at least, all the incompetent owners seem to own the small fluffy things, and the bully breeds. Looking out the window this morning, another large staffy looking thing, pulling out in front of its owner on the walk.

The bully breeds and crosses are often considered small-medium sized dogs, and hence owned out of convenience by people who would not want a large dog. But they are not comparable to the other small breeds in terms of power.

I am going to try and report the lady today, I remember some of the members of her pack, the male steel grey bully thing at the front, a border collie cross, a brindle large female something, a small tan and white maltese looking thing and a few other small-med sized things. You know it's interesting isn't it? All in the same pack, all with the same crap owner, but only one of them attacked my puppy, no questions asked, and that one just happened to be the bully breed.

[Dame Aussie]

I'm so sorry this happened, I hope your pup doesn;t sustain any long term problems due to this. I probably would have slapped that owner.

However, as others have said, it isn't the breed. I don't want to imagine trying to get any medium to large dog off a puppy if they are in that state of mind. Do you really think a bull breed is that much stronger than any other medium to large breed???

I understand you're upset but please don't blame it on the breed.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Haven't read the whole thread but it is actually illegal in NSW to have more than 4 dogs under your "control" anywhere. Probably the same in other states - please report this person.

Although the attacks I generally hear about are bull type dogs, I heard about a "Retriever" that ran out of its house and killed a small dog recently. The children of the house let the dog out when this lady was walking past. Very sad indeed, the little dog was defenceless. I don't know if or what the owner tried but obviously it didn't work.

One of my own small dogs was attacked without provocation by first a Border Collie x, he ran and 3 large dogs ran after him and he ended up in the mouth of a kelpie cross which I ran at screaming my lungs at, luckily he dropped my dog and he was a super smart foxy and ran for his life. I was very, very lucky that day.

The 2 owners of the 3 dogs were completely useless and just "shut their eyes" they said. I rarely go to dog parks, you just cannot predict what will happen and it's very risky indeed.

You really shouldn't have such a young puppy out, off lead, in a dog park. Too many risks.

Edited April 1, 2010 by dogmad

[LisaB85]

I feel sorry for your pup, but not you and I think your just as much to blame as the other person.

Why would you take an 11wk old pup to a park and allow it to walk off lead it's an accident waiting to happen and have you not heard of Parvo.

All dogs must be on a lead in public, so please don't blame other dogs or breeds for their irresponsible owners.

You clearly have no idea of what BSL is all about, maybe you should do a little research then you might not be so quick to support it.

Just one more thing why did you choose a Dobermann ?

Well, it was an off-lead area... But not the main one in the park where all the dogs are. Aside from me, I saw only one couple having a picnic, the woman with the pack, and then as I was leaving, a couple with an oodle cross thingy. And I was there for over an hour.

Very familiar with BSL. Didn't say I now support it, said I would likely describe my position as on the fence, because nothing else is being done to control who can and can't own powerful breeds, and so I believe the current situation is dangerous. As I've already said, I think the ideal situation would be for dog ownership to be more regulated. But that seems to have been put into the too hard box, so you tell me what should happen.

I chose a dobe because I wanted an intelligent, large breed, not much fur, not bred traditionally for hunting or herding purposes. Deterrent security wise. Very affectionate and loving. Capable of accompanying me on my jogs and bike rides. Very good looking. I have spent about 3 years preparing for one, visited several breeders, read heaps of books, internet pages etc. Chose the one I have based on his parents - very intelligent, bred to dobe standard in terms of temperament as well as looks. I am fortunate in that I can commit a lot of time to developing the puppy, guaranteed for at least the first 2 years of his life, and I know I will always be able to keep him financially. That's why I waited so long before going out and getting one. You're more than welcome to meet him lol and see for yourself what a terrible job I'm doing of raising him...

[Adnil444]

*snip*

I would be rushing out to purchase a tattslotto ticket and then belting myself over the head with a rolled up newspaper.

Lisa, sorry about what happened to your pup, hope there are no long lasting effects on his temperament, but as others have mentioned I really think it is taking a big risk having an 11 week old pup off leash, regardless of previous good behaviour he's still not 'proven'. There is no way you could anticipate the reaction of an 11 week old pup should an unexpected incident occur. If you hadn't happened to pick him up he might have sped off in fear straight under the wheels of a car. Too damn risky in my opinion.

I'm also curious about his vaccination status.

*snip*

You should report the dog to the council. If he has attacked before, a description will probably suffice. Whether it does or not, an ACO should be in the park patrolling, to find him. And if the council seizes him, at least he wont be attacking anyone else.

Although you said you would not report, SHE said she would keep him on lead, and then went back on her word immediately. How dreadfully irresponsible.

This woman's responsibility was to keep this dog on lead, and away from other dogs. She failed to do that, so now, the law must make her.

I agree. I wouldn't want it on my head the next time he attacks, and he almost certainly will, as his owner is clearly doing nothing to prevent it.

*snip*

As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently.

I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) :

Labrador

Boxer

Border Collie

Kelpie

Maltese x Shi Tzu...

I don't usually play 'name the breed' but in the interests of showing the diversity of attacking dog breeds, may I add:

jack russell

rottweiler

ACD

another BC

another lab

various mixed breeds

and a pair of saint bernards acting in tandem

Lisa, stubborn and muscular this dog may have been, but imagine trying to move a pair of 80 kilo saint bernards - physically impossible due to the fact that they weigh more than your average woman. One of them thankfully responded to a commanding tone of voice, the other completely ignored me and all I could do was release my dog's leash to give him half a chance to defend himself without me or the leash getting in the way. Thankfully my boy somehow managed to 'hold' the other dog and I stepped between, at which stage the irresponsible owner finally decided to come over.

If BSL is taken to its ultimate conclusion, nobody will be allowed to own any dogs of a certain build, history or over a certain size. Say goodbye to staffords, bernese mountain dogs, great danes, newfs, malamutes, dobermanns, rottweilers, GSDs, pointers, most of the sighthounds, pretty much anything from the mastiff group, rhodesian ridgebacks, weimeranas etc etc

I'm sorry but I just don't warm to little lap dogs the way I do to large silly oafs and I really hope there never comes a day when we go to choose a dog and are asked which of the only twenty or so breeds remaining we would like...all of them under knee height.

Oh and if you like your dobermanns, better think twice about supporting BSL because the dobes will be a casualty as soon as they've got rid of the bull breeds.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries

They also said they just picked the puppy up, if it was that strong & vicious, surely it wouldn't have let go of the puppy.

Sorry, but I smell a rat.

Good point. When my girls had a fight, I picked up Ebony ('cos she was smaller) and her teeth were still embedded in Ella's face - there was no way she was letting go willingly. Even picking up the attacking dog can't make them let go if they're really determined.

Longcoat, if bull breeds are banned, the undesirable owners (studded collar brigade) will simply move on to rotties, dobes and GSDs and that will blow your theory of the owners of these dogs being more responsible out of the water.

BTW, Kuges has studs on his collar. A single row of small ones though - it's his 'bling'. :D

Hi, I'm not sure this is correct - that if they ban bully breeds they will move onto another breed - dobes, GSDs, Rotties have had their turn at bad press etc - the fact is they aren't as prevalent as the bully breeds - a smaller bully breed is easier and cheaper to feed, vet etc than a larger rottie, dobe or gsd etc. The owners now of rottie, dobes etc that I have come across, and I've come across many, seem to be very responsible dog owners and they have purchased from reputable breeders and have also done the hard yards of socialising, training etc etc. In fact I have yet to come across a "bad" one of these breeds (I have a rottiexdobe and a dobexkelpie and both were rescues and both are extremely people and dog friendly, if they weren't I would not have rescued them).

It has been stated many times before, all dogs can bite and become aggressive, but the bully breeds by far seem to do more damage than any other breeds that are reported.

I don't support BSL, but I support responsible dog ownership which is where the problem lies and unfortunately I don't see it ever ceasing, unless maybe huge lawsuits are thrown at people who have these dogs that do cause problems (in fact any breed of dog). Maybe hitting them hard in the hip pocket will make people seriously think twice about owning these dogs - some countries have much higher insurance premiums if you have certain breeds - a responsible dog owner would pay it as the chances of their dogs turning out aggressive etc are minimal as they put the hard yards in.

A slap on the wrist, having your dog ceased and a small fine in my opinion is not a deterrent to owning certain breeds if they cause problems - a jail term, a choice that the victim can sue the owner for everything and a ban from ever owning any breed of dog again could possibly work.

[charli73]

Slighty Off topic....

Can I make a suggestion?

I love to have my large dog off lead too esp as a pup but maybe get yourself a long lead so that the dog has more room to move too but you also have the ability to reel him in when needed, they are great for recalls too...

Edited April 1, 2010 by charli73

[Greytmate]

I can sympathise with the OP, but only if this is reported.

The woman lied to you. Two reports and then confiscation is just total rubbish, that isn't how dog laws work at all.

One dog of a breed that is bad, or an entire breed of bad dogs, doesn't matter. This dog and owner needs to be reported.

BSL won't spread as long as the breed community works together to be responsible. We managed to relax BSL on greyhounds in QLD by doing that. BSL will only spread to breeds where the majority of owners do not want to be responsible.

[OSoSwift]

Hope your puppy is okay.

Don't beat yourself up about picking him up, even if in an ungainly fashion, sometimes we "Do" without thinking in these sorts of situations.

Please make a bit effort to get him out around safe dogs to socilaise. By safe I mean fully vaccinated and dogs that will disipline a puppy, but will not bully it or attack it. He needs to be taught boundries but not learn that he needs to attack first before the other dog has a chance.

I also support the idea of the owner being reported, she is obviously unable to make a commone sense decision in regard to a dog aggressive dog being under control.

I would be very careful about where I took my Dobe baby until his last vaccination. I wouldn't use a dog park, but would try and take him to a Puppy pre-school, a person house with "safe" dogs etc. Maybe contact the Dobe club in your state and see if you can meet up with some of it's members for a puppy play date.

Part of the reason your puppy would be safer on a lead is that if he is attacked, you still have a physical control of him. That inherantly makes him safer due to the fact you can physically control where he goes and just how far away he can get from you.

Puppys of his age are quite often really good at sticking close by because they are babies and they need "pack" support. Usually at around 14 to 16 weeks they start to become a little braver and try their independence. This means that will start to explore a little further on their own, quite often ignoring your calls to return as they are starting the very beginning of their adolecent like faze of puppy hood. It is not unusual for a puppy of that age who has never gone away from it's owner to start giving the two finger salute whilst running or at least jogging in the opposite direction.

They do not know how to recall, especially under distraction, as they have not yet been taught what a recall is.

Good luck with your puppy and although you possibly feel a little under scrutiney, the advice is sound. Dobermanns are more prone to getting Parvo (along with a couple of other breeds) than your average run of the mill dog. I do agree socilaisation is extremely important, it just needs to be done in the safest way possible. Parvo is a horrible disease. Dobermanns - especially males- do not have a reliable recall until they are at least 18 months and have be regularly trained for it.

You have an honerable and fantastic breed. Have a great time with him.

[Erny]

. I don't consider myself ignorant of the risks, but there are more risks than things like parvo when you own a breed like a doberman, and the vet and breeder have told me it is more risky to keep him inside until after he is 4 months old, which would be when his vaccinations would be complete.

Hi LisaB85. Yes, it is OT to your opening post. And I agree with you that it is important (regardless of breed) to socialise our pups to all manner of our worldly things inside of the critical period - and there's soooooo much we can/need to socialise them to, it is best to make as much good use of that small window frame as possible.

When my boy was a pup we were very busy going out averywhere. But we didn't do dog parks. Not until later (and even then very cautiously). We did puppy school and coffee shops and all of that kind of thing, where he could observe and experience different sights and sounds. But not dog parks. Irresponsible people go there (as you now know) and you don't know where they've come from nor where they've been. Dog parks are a higher risk - as there are other alternatives, it isn't necessary nor even recommended.

You know it's interesting isn't it? All in the same pack, all with the same crap owner, but only one of them attacked my puppy, no questions asked, and that one just happened to be the bully breed.

You sound very strong in your convictions against the bully breeds in general, now LisaB85. Yet do you know the dogs' history? Isn't this a dog walker? Does she own the dogs? What is the upbringing of each dog?

You are selecting by breed only and conveniently making assumptions to suit your sentiment (sentiments I can sympathise for your experience, but not agree with). This is how the falsehood of BSL got through in the first place. And yet it hasn't altered bite/attack stats.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Erny

[Kavik]

Also, if you continually run into aggressive dogs (I think in your posts you said you had run into a few different dogs of different breeds that were aggressive towards your pup) I would avoid those dogs and those areas altogether. Too many bad experiences could cause your pup to be aggressive. I would only allow your pup to say hi to dogs who you know are not going to act in an aggressive manner and avoid the rest.