Dog Attack -> Potential Bsl Convert

[LisaB85]

This was not the off-leash dog section of the park btw. This was a random section, closer to the fence near the bus depo in a section I'd never been to before. It was virtually empty except for a few joggers, and well, this pack. I had him off lead because he sticks to my feet, but so he can go to the toilet.

It wouldn't have made any difference in this situation to have had him on a lead or not. He was sitting on my feet when the dog charged; he couldn't have been any closer and that's what saved him. He usually walks past other dogs with no problems, but as soon as I saw the way this dog looked at him, I did think to put him on his lead. I thought the owner would be able to control her dog if I could control mine; I wouldn't leave the house with a dog I couldn't control.

[Beaglelover:)]

This was not the off-leash dog section of the park btw. This was a random section, closer to the fence near the bus depo in a section I'd never been to before. It was virtually empty except for a few joggers, and well, this pack. I had him off lead because he sticks to my feet, but so he can go to the toilet.

It wouldn't have made any difference in this situation to have had him on a lead or not. He was sitting on my feet when the dog charged; he couldn't have been any closer and that's what saved him. He usually walks past other dogs with no problems, but as soon as I saw the way this dog looked at him, I did think to put him on his lead. I thought the owner would be able to control her dog if I could control mine; I wouldn't leave the house with a dog I couldn't control.

Sorry, but you both were breaking the law, no dog should be off the lead unless in a "designed off lead area". This is how dog attacks happen. :D

[charli73]

This was not the off-leash dog section of the park btw. This was a random section, closer to the fence near the bus depo in a section I'd never been to before. It was virtually empty except for a few joggers, and well, this pack. I had him off lead because he sticks to my feet, but so he can go to the toilet.

It wouldn't have made any difference in this situation to have had him on a lead or not. He was sitting on my feet when the dog charged; he couldn't have been any closer and that's what saved him. He usually walks past other dogs with no problems, but as soon as I saw the way this dog looked at him, I did think to put him on his lead. I thought the owner would be able to control her dog if I could control mine; I wouldn't leave the house with a dog I couldn't control.

Im doubtful anyone can fully control on 11 week old puppy off lead... on lead yes.

Edited April 1, 2010 by charli73

[ruthless]

This was not the off-leash dog section of the park btw.

That is off-leash AFAIK. The whole park on that side of Grand Drive is off-leash.

[Starkehre]

Well, thank goodness your pup did not try to run away from this attacking dog. Because if he did try to, there is a very good chance he would not be with you now. His lead should have been on. The fact that he stays near you does not indicate that it is OK to remove the lead. There is nothing proofed about your pup's 11 week old behaviours.

Never ever let your pup off leash, please. It is your job to teach him to eliminate on lead. When he is more mature and has a good solid recall and you know 100% how he communicates with, tolerates and deals with other dogs after he has gone through puberty, then and only then should he be let off lead and in an enclosed and safe area with dogs that you know the capabilities and behaviours.

I would be rushing out to purchase a tattslotto ticket and then belting myself over the head with a rolled up newspaper.

Edited April 1, 2010 by dyzney

[persephone]

How scary!

Glad your pup is ok...and I hope you will now show him some calm leadership when next there is a challenging dog close by.This is the only way he will heal from today's fright..for you not to tense/worry/take evasive action...

The owner of that dog sounds as if she needs some serious educating :D Hopefully today has taught her a lesson or three.

These days,No Way would I take a baby puppy to a park, especially one where dogs were offlead- there are just too many dangers, both from disease and attacks .

[newfsie]

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

Sure they can be strong, but any dog who goes into 'peak' aggression automatically has a lowered pain threshold because of the adrenaline coursing through their body - that is not breed specific, that is the same with any dog displaying aggression.

Do you really think that bull breeds or mixes have more strength than a big GSD, Dobe or rotty?

I know for a fact that when a newf is in full on fighting mode they are incredibly strong and it has taken me and my hubby to pull our newf rescue off our other dog when we first got her. And hubby is very strong and experienced with dogs. She was owned by a "bad" owner and completely ruined. She is now a very social dog, but only after six months of solid training. Any large breed out of control is almost impossible to stop.............I am so glad you were able to pull your pup away from all of this. It is sad that it might most likely happen again with that dog. Maybe with not such a good ending :D

[Red Fox]

Report the owner. If she has already been reported twice then describing her and the dogs should be enough to pinpoint exactly who she is.

[Jed]

Sorry to hear about this, hope your pup is ok now, and he doesn't suffer any ill effects

The attacking dog continued to try and attack mine, but I made a point of ignoring him, and leading my dog around the others, patting them myself etc, I wasn't sure what to do but I didn't want to leave with my dog shivering and freaking out at the sight of dogs. I told her that I could report the dog for what had happened here, because he was dangerous, and she said she knew but begged me not to because she said he had already been reported twice, and if it happened again, he would be confiscated. Truthfully, I was thinking I didn't know how to report him anyway, having no idea where they lived or any details about any of them

.

Breeds are not dangerous per se, DOGS are dangerous. This dog is dangerous, and he should not be off lead with a pack of other dogs, and not under effective control.

You should report the dog to the council. If he has attacked before, a description will probably suffice. Whether it does or not, an ACO should be in the park patrolling, to find him. And if the council seizes him, at least he wont be attacking anyone else.

Although you said you would not report, SHE said she would keep him on lead, and then went back on her word immediately. How dreadfully irresponsible.

People not reporting attacking dogs leads to more dog attacks, and people believing they can do whatever and go where ever as they please with what is a dangerous dog with no regard or care for others they hurt.

And that leads to breeds being banned, which disadvantages the gentle members of that breed, and fails to make owners of dangerous dogs understand what their responsibilities are.

This woman's responsibility was to keep this dog on lead, and away from other dogs. She failed to do that, so now, the law must make her.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Jed

[Erny]

LisaB85 - By the sounds you have handled the whole situation well and with self-control and common sense and you did good by your pup to have the head to counteract any trauma it might have experienced by following up immediately with the intro to dogs who were appropriate to socialise with. I don't believe it is "your fault" - we should be able to have our dogs with us at off lead parks with at least a reasonable degree of safety assured. But alas, common sense doesn't prevail much these days as you've found out.

As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently.

I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) :

Labrador

Boxer

Border Collie

Kelpie

Maltese x Shi Tzu

These that I can remember off the top of my head and quickly.

So you see, it has nothing to do with breed. It has to do with silly owners.

Banning breeds of dogs doesn't stop silly owners. They'll only own other breed types - even Dobes.

To finish off - if this other dog had been another Doberman (let's be hypothetical to put it into perspective), would you be thinking along the lines of supporting BSL when it affects that breed and wishing it did, because of the same experience? Remember, it would affect your pup too. Or knowing how you are bringing yours up, would you be inclined to more clearly realise it is owner stupidity?

Edited April 1, 2010 by Erny

[rastus_froggy]

REPORT HER!!!! Report whatever you know about her, if you don't you should hold yourself partly responsible for whatever else this dog hurts or even kills throughout the rest of it's life - not that you will ever know about it. But just think, how would you feel if your puppy were killed by this dog today... maybe someone will be feeling this tomorrow because of this dog if you don't report it.

And as someone else has already said, keep your pup on lead and teach it to toilet while on lead, there are times in life when this is a very handy skill to have.

[schnauzer]

You should have reported her to the Rangers Office in the park. Go and make a complaint tomorrow (at the rear of the restaurant).

No-one should be walking a "pack" off lead. If she is a dog walker that is illegal - as I think the law is 1 dog walker per two dogs?

If your puppy has any bite wounds it should be taken to a vet as they can get infected easily.

[spottychick]

Hi Lisa - I sympathise with you! Having also witnessed a sudden vicious attack on my dally by a pitbull last week I too feel there is a problem with a certain kind of person who OWNS these dogs. It's not the dog or the breed but they do seem to attract absolute morons - usually bogan blokes but your woman sort of fits what I'm thinking of. (tho obviously some nice people own them too - don't misunderstand me!!!).

The idiot who owned the pitbull that had my dally by the throat is known to me but still hasn't apologised or made any comment at all about what he saw happen. Even tho I was in danger as well as my dog!!!

I did notice that when I was walking the dogs at the river a couple of days ago his ute was heading towards us - I immediately screamed at my girl to 'come' (I had my other dally on a lunge lead) and we raced for the car, but he did a quick u-ey and left - which surprised me. I guess I should be thankful for small mercies.

It's hard not to feel bad about the breed I know, but I've met some lovely pittys - it's just the 'mouth-breathing breed' of some of their owners that's the problem.

Glad your puppy's okay and good on ya for trying to do some damage control afterwards. I can see you'll end up with a lovely natured well-socialised dog!

Oh and my opinion about the woman involved - report that stupid waste of oxygen!

[LisaB85]

LisaB85 - By the sounds you have handled the whole situation well and with self-control and common sense and you did good by your pup to have the head to counteract any trauma it might have experienced by following up immediately with the intro to dogs who were appropriate to socialise with. I don't believe it is "your fault" - we should be able to have our dogs with us at off lead parks with at least a reasonable degree of safety assured. But alas, common sense doesn't prevail much these days as you've found out.

As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently.

I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) :

Labrador

Boxer

Border Collie

Kelpie

Maltese x Shi Tzu

These that I can remember off the top of my head and quickly.

So you see, it has nothing to do with breed. It has to do with silly owners.

Banning breeds of dogs doesn't stop silly owners. They'll only own other breed types - even Dobes.

To finish off - if this other dog had been another Doberman (let's be hypothetical to put it into perspective), would you be thinking along the lines of supporting BSL when it affects that breed and wishing it did, because of the same experience? Remember, it would affect your pup too. Or knowing how you are bringing yours up, would you be inclined to more clearly realise it is owner stupidity?

I have always agreed with these sorts of points, and continue to do so. Where I live, there are many swf things that attack anything and everything. Today at lunch, we had to move because a woman had a labrador that was just too aggressive and she could not control him/her.

The point I'm making is that none of those dogs scared me to this extent, because I always at least feel like I'm in with some kind of chance. Today, for the first time, I felt like I had absolutely no chance against a particular dog; you end up waiting for them to give up, and that's not something they do.

It was too low, center of gravity protected it from counter-attacks by humans, too strong and too determined. I have been attacked by a boxer, by heaps of small dogs, and by 2 labradors, but in all of these cases, I did not feel as hopeless as I did with this dog today.

I believe 100% that this behaviour was the result of poor ownership. But currently, there is nothing stopping terrible owners from buying these kinds of dogs. A doberman would be quite terrible in the wrong hands, but they just don't have the same build. My dog currently weighs about 10kg max. His dad weighs 40+kg, but I believe this dog today would destroy him in a fight - there just isn't any other breed that can really compete on the fighting scene.

I have met many wonderful examples of bully breeds. One of my favourite dogs is a presumed pitt bull mix. But I do not think they should be available for general ownership. Because they are not even in the same league in terms of damage potential as most of the other breeds. If a crap dog owner decides to get a dog, if they raise it terribly, abuse it, don't socialise it, no training etc etc, there is still likely be a difference in the outcome if they had started with a pitt bull vs most of the other breeds.

Don't get me wrong. If I could, I would change the laws and control who could own dogs. Too many dogs in shelters, too many being abused and too many completely avoidable dangerous situations. But I just don't think this will ever happen. And so, whilst I do not think it will be effective in eliminating all of the problems, I do now think there's a good chance that some BSL for these bully breeds would make it safer, purely because they are stronger and more tenacious than any other breed in general (of course there will be exceptions) - and in the wrong hands, this creates/enables a completely unacceptable situation. So many of the hard cases on the dog whisperer are with bully breeds because they don't give up, and they're stubborn, but I hadn't seen the dangerous side of that until today. Secondly, like I said before, I think these breeds are attracting the wrong sorts of owners. And people often say, oh well you ban one breed, they'd just buy another, but I'm not sure that's the case. They don't always want dogs, they want what a pittbull is portrayed to be, and this is what they create.

Dobermans seem to be quite rare these days, I have seen only one other, and to be honest, I think this is how it should be. They are not suitable for all dog owners, and mine is a lot of work. This is how it should be with these bully breeds, but it's not. There is no such thing as an easy breed, but there are certainly breeds which are safer.

A lot of this is speculation though, I don't deny it. I feel a lot calmer now, although unfortunately, when I put my puppy to bed, he cried for the first time in weeks, so I'm guessing he is still a bit shaken up. I'm just trying to act like nothing has changed and praying that tomorrow when I take him for his walks, he doesn't shy away from the other dogs.

I'm not going to go and support BSL, but, if I'm honest, I'd probably say I'm based on the fence now.

[LisaB85]

You should have reported her to the Rangers Office in the park. Go and make a complaint tomorrow (at the rear of the restaurant).

No-one should be walking a "pack" off lead. If she is a dog walker that is illegal - as I think the law is 1 dog walker per two dogs?

If your puppy has any bite wounds it should be taken to a vet as they can get infected easily.

I have checked him very thoroughly, he has no wounds thank god. I don't know what to say, but really I think it's likely his worst injury is from me lifting him up by his collar, but I just didn't have a choice.

They were all her dogs. I think I will report her then, because I don't want to have to constantly worry about running into her, and yeah, I agree with what someone else said - I would be devastated if my puppy was injured or killed when someone could have prevented it by reporting the dangerous dog.

I feel very sad that it may result in her losing her dog, but more than anything I just really hope that after today, she realises it's her fault.

[ruthless]

She won't lose her dog. She'll possibly have it declared dangerous and have to comply with DD legislation. Muzzled and onlead in public with a DD collar. Kept in a childproof enclosure at home. Higher registration costs.

[mantis]

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries

They also said they just picked the puppy up, if it was that strong & vicious, surely it wouldn't have let go of the puppy.

Sorry, but I smell a rat.

[Jed]

Hi Lisa - I sympathise with you! Having also witnessed a sudden vicious attack on my dally by a pitbull last week I too feel there is a problem with a certain kind of person who OWNS these dogs. It's not the dog or the breed but they do seem to attract absolute morons - usually bogan blokes but your woman sort of fits what I'm thinking of. (tho obviously some nice people own them too - don't misunderstand me!!!).

The idiot who owned the pitbull that had my dally by the throat is known to me but still hasn't apologised or made any comment at all about what he saw happen. Even tho I was in danger as well as my dog!!!

I did notice that when I was walking the dogs at the river a couple of days ago his ute was heading towards us - I immediately screamed at my girl to 'come' (I had my other dally on a lunge lead) and we raced for the car, but he did a quick u-ey and left - which surprised me. I guess I should be thankful for small mercies.

It's hard not to feel bad about the breed I know, but I've met some lovely pittys - it's just the 'mouth-breathing breed' of some of their owners that's the problem.

Glad your puppy's okay and good on ya for trying to do some damage control afterwards. I can see you'll end up with a lovely natured well-socialised dog!

Oh and my opinion about the woman involved - report that stupid waste of oxygen!

I hope you reported him?

[mantis]

LisaB85 - By the sounds you have handled the whole situation well and with self-control and common sense and you did good by your pup to have the head to counteract any trauma it might have experienced by following up immediately with the intro to dogs who were appropriate to socialise with. I don't believe it is "your fault" - we should be able to have our dogs with us at off lead parks with at least a reasonable degree of safety assured. But alas, common sense doesn't prevail much these days as you've found out.

As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently.

I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) :

Labrador

Boxer

Border Collie

Kelpie

Maltese x Shi Tzu

These that I can remember off the top of my head and quickly.

So you see, it has nothing to do with breed. It has to do with silly owners.

Banning breeds of dogs doesn't stop silly owners. They'll only own other breed types - even Dobes.

To finish off - if this other dog had been another Doberman (let's be hypothetical to put it into perspective), would you be thinking along the lines of supporting BSL when it affects that breed and wishing it did, because of the same experience? Remember, it would affect your pup too. Or knowing how you are bringing yours up, would you be inclined to more clearly realise it is owner stupidity?

I have always agreed with these sorts of points, and continue to do so. Where I live, there are many swf things that attack anything and everything. Today at lunch, we had to move because a woman had a labrador that was just too aggressive and she could not control him/her.

The point I'm making is that none of those dogs scared me to this extent, because I always at least feel like I'm in with some kind of chance. Today, for the first time, I felt like I had absolutely no chance against a particular dog; you end up waiting for them to give up, and that's not something they do.

It was too low, center of gravity protected it from counter-attacks by humans, too strong and too determined. I have been attacked by a boxer, by heaps of small dogs, and by 2 labradors, but in all of these cases, I did not feel as hopeless as I did with this dog today.

I believe 100% that this behaviour was the result of poor ownership. But currently, there is nothing stopping terrible owners from buying these kinds of dogs. A doberman would be quite terrible in the wrong hands, but they just don't have the same build. My dog currently weighs about 10kg max. His dad weighs 40+kg, but I believe this dog today would destroy him in a fight - there just isn't any other breed that can really compete on the fighting scene.

I have met many wonderful examples of bully breeds. One of my favourite dogs is a presumed pitt bull mix. But I do not think they should be available for general ownership. Because they are not even in the same league in terms of damage potential as most of the other breeds. If a crap dog owner decides to get a dog, if they raise it terribly, abuse it, don't socialise it, no training etc etc, there is still likely be a difference in the outcome if they had started with a pitt bull vs most of the other breeds.

Don't get me wrong. If I could, I would change the laws and control who could own dogs. Too many dogs in shelters, too many being abused and too many completely avoidable dangerous situations. But I just don't think this will ever happen. And so, whilst I do not think it will be effective in eliminating all of the problems, I do now think there's a good chance that some BSL for these bully breeds would make it safer, purely because they are stronger and more tenacious than any other breed in general (of course there will be exceptions) - and in the wrong hands, this creates/enables a completely unacceptable situation. So many of the hard cases on the dog whisperer are with bully breeds because they don't give up, and they're stubborn, but I hadn't seen the dangerous side of that until today. Secondly, like I said before, I think these breeds are attracting the wrong sorts of owners. And people often say, oh well you ban one breed, they'd just buy another, but I'm not sure that's the case. They don't always want dogs, they want what a pittbull is portrayed to be, and this is what they create.

Dobermans seem to be quite rare these days, I have seen only one other, and to be honest, I think this is how it should be. They are not suitable for all dog owners, and mine is a lot of work. This is how it should be with these bully breeds, but it's not. There is no such thing as an easy breed, but there are certainly breeds which are safer.

A lot of this is speculation though, I don't deny it. I feel a lot calmer now, although unfortunately, when I put my puppy to bed, he cried for the first time in weeks, so I'm guessing he is still a bit shaken up. I'm just trying to act like nothing has changed and praying that tomorrow when I take him for his walks, he doesn't shy away from the other dogs.

I'm not going to go and support BSL, but, if I'm honest, I'd probably say I'm based on the fence now.

Must not say what I am thinking. :D

[Longcoat]

Over the last few years, most of the serious more savage attacks reported by the media are Bull breeds of some description and crosses of. I can recall one Rottweiler serious attack reported and a pair of GSD's a few years back. I think in general, there are more Bull breeds owned by irresponsible people and also people wanting the tough Bully type muscled physique of the studded collar brigade that causes most if not all of the Bull breed problems. Owners of Rottweilers, GSD's Dobes etc that could have dangerous capabilities are in my experience, far more respsonsible owners more willing to learn how to train and handle their dogs properly. Many breeds have fighting drive and active aggression if allowed to develop and an irresponsible owner with any breed that displays aggression will be a problem in the community.