Dog Attack -> Potential Bsl Convert

[LisaB85]

I am still shaking. I have just finished my shower, which I had to have because my puppy urinated on me, as well as, I can't be sure, but I think he expelled his anal glands or something. He did this because today, he was almost killed by a bully type dog at Centennial Park in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.

He is about 11 weeks old, a baby doberman. He walks at my side with or without a leash, never more than about 2 meters away from me. Today at the park, we were in a fairly secluded area where I thought we were basically the only ones. He was at my side as usual, when a pack of like 8 dogs and one older female lady suddenly appeared around a corner about 5m from us. I saw the way the dog who was leading the pack, a steel coloured bully breed looking thing looked at my pup, the way he instantly locked on, but I thought that being off the lead, he wouldn't do anything serious because, well I figured that if you knew you had a dangerous dog, you wouldn't leave them to their own devices. I did think I should put the lead on my puppy, because I thought there was a chance that if he approached that dog, it might not like it. But I didn't get a chance. Not even a second had passed since first seeing him when he charged and grabbed my puppy. I didn't even think. I heard my dog scream and I just reached down and actually picked him up by his collar. My puppy took about a minute to stop shrieking hysterically, but fortunately, he doesn't seem to have any serious injuries. Covered in dog slobber, and some tender bits, and I will be taking him to the vet, but I think from a physical standpoint at least, I got him out of there in time.

I don't know when, because everything happened incredibly fast, but my handbag was spilled out all over the ground.

I was almost in tears, and I turned to the woman and asked her what the hell she thought she was doing, having a dog like that off the lead. She said she was very sorry, and admitted that he had done it before. She said she thought he had been getting better. I asked what she thought was the possible good outcome in this situation - either her dog kills another, like it would have done with mine, or the dog it attacks is stronger and they both get hurt. More than that, I said I was angry because this is how dog aggressive dogs are created, and that is unforgivable. She agreed and said, yeah, he was attacked as a pup. I asked why are you continuing the cycle? I stayed for about 20 mins, I made my dog talk to all of the dogs in her pack that I deemed submissive and friendly. She said all the rest were fine because they had had puppies... The attacking dog continued to try and attack mine, but I made a point of ignoring him, and leading my dog around the others, patting them myself etc, I wasn't sure what to do but I didn't want to leave with my dog shivering and freaking out at the sight of dogs. I told her that I could report the dog for what had happened here, because he was dangerous, and she said she knew but begged me not to because she said he had already been reported twice, and if it happened again, he would be confiscated. Truthfully, I was thinking I didn't know how to report him anyway, having no idea where they lived or any details about any of them.

She said she would keep him on a lead from then on, but when I was around the other side of the pond, I saw him off the lead again. I also saw a couple with some oodle cross thing heading in that direction.

I have never been a supporter of BSL, in fact I have actively campaigned against it. I own a doberman, and previously GSD. I believe that it is the owner that makes the dog who and what it is, not the breed.

But after today, I am very sad to find that my position has altered. Not because I think bully breeds are inherently bad, but because there are soooo many bad owners out there, and in the wrong hands, some breeds are just too dangerous. I could not move her dog. He was all muscle, his head was massive. I don't think BSL is the best answer, but, given that there is currently nothing in place to ensure that they are only owned by responsible competent people, I feel the only way is apply such an approach. If my dog hadn't been next to me, basically sitting on my feet, I would never have gotten there in time, and to me, having to worry about these sorts of situations is just unacceptable. These dogs seem attract too many of the wrong people and they are destroying the breed. And they don't even know it, because I bet they're not the sort of people who would bother trying to research about their dogs.

If ownership of these breeds continues to be completely unregulated, well I am just currently feeling like there's no other option. Sorry for the long post, but this whole event has just really shaken me, and I don't know why the majority of BSL supporters feel the way they do, but after today, I don't feel like it's such an unreasonable concept.

[ruthless]

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ruthless

[Crisovar]

The individual dog is the problem not the breed, as horrible as it is to watch your puppy attacked BSL does nothing to stop stupid owners, nothing, your pup could have been attacked by any breed, any breed at all.

I have been bitten by a Dobe, I don't want them banned, I just ask for the other end of the leash to smarten up.

[gareth]

Have a stiff drink and hug your puppy. Hope there are no ill effects, physical or otherwise.

[LisaB85]

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

[Zug Zug]

Oh wow no wonder you are so shaken up.

I know what you mean about the owners being hopeless. Relying on education alone does seem unlikely to succeed.

But reading your post it seems clear to me that it is definitely the owner's management at fault, as much as the dog. I am reminded of the old saying 'you can't legislate for common sense'.

Edit: I was attacked badly by a large male boxer once. Same thing - no response at all to me trying to hit him and defend myself. And he was all muscle too. But they are a lovely breed generally. I think it's partly the mental state they get into when they charge.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Zug Zug

[ruthless]

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries :D

[huski]

Sorry to hear what happened to your puppy :D

Personally a dog park is the last place on earth I would take a puppy especially one almost in his fear period, but that is only because my own puppy was attacked in the dog park by a bordie collie, then a boxer, and had run ins with various mixed breeds too. I've also seen dog aggressive GSDs, rotties, SWFs etc.

Any dog is capable of aggression, this is an owner issue not a breed issue. It sounds like the dog may have been a crossbreed too or at least you were unable to identify the breed which is even more reason why BSL is useless - you can't ban breeds when you have no idea what made up the one who attacked your dog.

[huski]

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

Sure they can be strong, but any dog who goes into 'peak' aggression automatically has a lowered pain threshold because of the adrenaline coursing through their body - that is not breed specific, that is the same with any dog displaying aggression.

Do you really think that bull breeds or mixes have more strength than a big GSD, Dobe or rotty?

[Kavik]

I'm sorry this happened :D

One of mine was severely attacked as well (lots of vet attention needed) and I sympathise as I remember how shaken up I was. I was really lucky someone heard my screams as the dog that attacked mine was wandering without an owner and there was no way I could have gotten him off my dog by myself.

I also avoid dog parks (though my dog was attacked on the footpath).

[RottnBullies]

I'm sorry to hear what happened, and hope the lil bub Is ok

Please do not condemn an entire breed for what has happened, BSL Isn't going to stop It either. Responsibility must always lie on the other end of the leash

Don't kid yourself that other breeds would not have been as hard to move of or control as this one was, which you mention only as a Bully breed type

[Wazzat Xolo]

Lisa I am glad to hear both you and your "puppy" are all ok.

At 11 weeks of age I am guessing you have had all his vaccinations ( 3) early?

I would not be taking a young puppy and exposing him to outside unknown areas at this age apart from puppy pre school classes that are available through Dog Trainers and vets!

[J.H.M]

Sorry to hear what happened to you little one but like everyone else has said, it could have been any breed, my stafford girl nearly had a piece taken out of her by some mongrel at a dog park when she was a puppy, the silly girl that bought the dog in knew that the dog was aggressive too but still continued to bring him in. He actually jumped shoulder height at my friend who picked my girl Jessie up and mouthed her you could see the spit where she tried to grab Jessie, he swiftly gave the dog a clip after it grabbed his hand after missing Jessie.

We quickly packed up and left when she was standing there telling my friends dog to "bash up her own dog to teach him a lesson". Ahhh Caboolture you have to love the place :D

Edited April 1, 2010 by JRM75

[Beaglelover:)]

I am still shaking. I have just finished my shower, which I had to have because my puppy urinated on me, as well as, I can't be sure, but I think he expelled his anal glands or something. He did this because today, he was almost killed by a bully type dog at Centennial Park in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.

He is about 11 weeks old, a baby doberman. He walks at my side with or without a leash, never more than about 2 meters away from me. Today at the park, we were in a fairly secluded area where I thought we were basically the only ones. He was at my side as usual, when a pack of like 8 dogs and one older female lady suddenly appeared around a corner about 5m from us. I saw the way the dog who was leading the pack, a steel coloured bully breed looking thing looked at my pup, the way he instantly locked on, but I thought that being off the lead, he wouldn't do anything serious because, well I figured that if you knew you had a dangerous dog, you wouldn't leave them to their own devices. I did think I should put the lead on my puppy, because I thought there was a chance that if he approached that dog, it might not like it. But I didn't get a chance. Not even a second had passed since first seeing him when he charged and grabbed my puppy. I didn't even think. I heard my dog scream and I just reached down and actually picked him up by his collar. My puppy took about a minute to stop shrieking hysterically, but fortunately, he doesn't seem to have any serious injuries. Covered in dog slobber, and some tender bits, and I will be taking him to the vet, but I think from a physical standpoint at least, I got him out of there in time.

I don't know when, because everything happened incredibly fast, but my handbag was spilled out all over the ground.

I was almost in tears, and I turned to the woman and asked her what the hell she thought she was doing, having a dog like that off the lead. She said she was very sorry, and admitted that he had done it before. She said she thought he had been getting better. I asked what she thought was the possible good outcome in this situation - either her dog kills another, like it would have done with mine, or the dog it attacks is stronger and they both get hurt. More than that, I said I was angry because this is how dog aggressive dogs are created, and that is unforgivable. She agreed and said, yeah, he was attacked as a pup. I asked why are you continuing the cycle? I stayed for about 20 mins, I made my dog talk to all of the dogs in her pack that I deemed submissive and friendly. She said all the rest were fine because they had had puppies... The attacking dog continued to try and attack mine, but I made a point of ignoring him, and leading my dog around the others, patting them myself etc, I wasn't sure what to do but I didn't want to leave with my dog shivering and freaking out at the sight of dogs. I told her that I could report the dog for what had happened here, because he was dangerous, and she said she knew but begged me not to because she said he had already been reported twice, and if it happened again, he would be confiscated. Truthfully, I was thinking I didn't know how to report him anyway, having no idea where they lived or any details about any of them.

She said she would keep him on a lead from then on, but when I was around the other side of the pond, I saw him off the lead again. I also saw a couple with some oodle cross thing heading in that direction.

I have never been a supporter of BSL, in fact I have actively campaigned against it. I own a doberman, and previously GSD. I believe that it is the owner that makes the dog who and what it is, not the breed.

But after today, I am very sad to find that my position has altered. Not because I think bully breeds are inherently bad, but because there are soooo many bad owners out there, and in the wrong hands, some breeds are just too dangerous. I could not move her dog. He was all muscle, his head was massive. I don't think BSL is the best answer, but, given that there is currently nothing in place to ensure that they are only owned by responsible competent people, I feel the only way is apply such an approach. If my dog hadn't been next to me, basically sitting on my feet, I would never have gotten there in time, and to me, having to worry about these sorts of situations is just unacceptable. These dogs seem attract too many of the wrong people and they are destroying the breed. And they don't even know it, because I bet they're not the sort of people who would bother trying to research about their dogs.

If ownership of these breeds continues to be completely unregulated, well I am just currently feeling like there's no other option. Sorry for the long post, but this whole event has just really shaken me, and I don't know why the majority of BSL supporters feel the way they do, but after today, I don't feel like it's such an unreasonable concept.

I am sorry you had to go through this :D

There are many dog aggressive dogs out in the world, which "should" never be let off the lead, but stupid owners are willing to take the risk. Any large breed can be dangerous to a small puppy; it is not just bull breeds.

I personally would never allow my small dog to play with a large dog of any breed, even if it was 99.9% friendly. If the play got rough or heated my little one would have no chance against any large breed. I am lucky that I have a dog park that has a section for small and large dogs.

A puppy of that age really should not be around such an area in the first place, due to him picking up nasty germs and his low immune system! He also shouldn’t have been off the lead either.

It is unfortunate that some dog owners are not responsible and are willing to take the risk, but you also took a risk too. You both did not have effective control of your dogs. Yes your dog was close to you, however it was still a massive risk to take your dog off the lead due to your dogs age and lack of training. After all, puppies will be puppies and they cannot be trusted in an unfenced public park, but more then anything he is very vulnerable.

Going forward, I would get your pup off to puppy school straight away, to help with his rehabilitation.

It is sad that the world is not a safe place and the good people have to suffer. Every dog should get the right to run free, however in this current world you always have to be extra careful and trust no one.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Beaglelover:)

[Zhou Xuanyao]

This is your fault to put it bluntly theres no other way to say it. You do not take puppies to offleash parks, period.

In my view if you take any dog to an offleash park and there is trouble then look in the mirror for who is to blame, but especially a puppy.

[charli73]

Glad your pup was unharmed, physically anyway...

So this owner said she knew it was dangerous, let it off lead then begged you not to report her but then she let it off lead after you were gone? What a moron.....

Im sorry but if it were me I would be reporting her, or as much as I knew of her anyway.... whatever breed it was it should be on lead if it has issues.

Edited April 1, 2010 by charli73

[Starkehre]

I am so so sorry to hear of your awful experience at the park. Just terrible.

It is a very upsetting thing to be concerned that there may be long term emotional issues to your little baby. I know what you are going through. When my young boy was 4 months old we were rushed by an off leash GSD baring it's teeth, growling and barking at full pelt, in an on leash area, I had my dog on leash. All the hard work you put in, and then this happens.

I do hope your baby gets over this ordeal with no adverse affects.

...and this is why I never go to off leash parks anymore. The only people you can trust there is yourself and if you are a switched on owner, your own dog. Unfortunately you cannot trust that every dog there is not dog aggressive and that owners are responsible.

I cannot believe the idiocy of that woman owner of the attacking dog. But unfortunately, it will not be the last time you come across someone like this. Not the dog's fault. Entirely the owner's fault.

Personally, I would never have an 11 week old pup at on off leash park, off leash. But I am sure if OP had any inclination of something like this happening, she would not have either.

[LisaB85]

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries :D

Yes but when I picked him up, the dog was leaping at my feet, trying to grab him. I could not move him away, and when the owner grabbed his collar, she couldn't either. She could only hold him in place so that I could move away. She hit him several times while he was jumping, he completely ignored her. The reason I noticed he didn't appear to have any vulnerable areas was because to be honest, I wanted to kick him to try and get him to go away.

[stormie]

Sorry this happened to you. It must have been really awful.

But banning the breed isn't going to change or stop irresponsible owners. They'll simply move onto another breed. What say, for example, the dog that attacked your pup was an aggressive Dobe? Would you be calling for Dobes to be banned, even though you had a lovely Dobey puppy?

As awful as it was, it does sound like it affected the other owner and she sounds like she was upset by the incident too. She said she would keep that dog on a lead from now on, so atleast it got through to her this time.

I know its off topic and I think already mentioned, but its not really the safest to be taking an 11wk old to areas frequented by lots of other dogs. Even if you had the newer vaccine that claims to finish at 10wks, you probably should be waiting about 2 weeks after this booster before you frequent those areas.

Also, and someone with Dobes might be able to clarify this, but I believe 'black and tans' seem to have longer lasting maternal antibodies too, so they're usually advised to do the 8, 12 then 16wk regime?

Edited April 1, 2010 by stormie

[Wazzat Xolo]

Lisa

Sorry To harp but is your dog Fully Vaccinated ?

I'm sorry about what happened to your puppy. My Husky was attacked in CP a few years ago. I loathe the off lead area and I refuse to go there any more. TBH, what happened to your dog could've happened with another Dobermann or a German Shepherd. The breed of dog wasn't the issue here. The owner was. I think you know that though and you're just speaking out of anger.

Don't deny it for a second - any breed can be aggressive. What worries me is that I could not move her dog, and neither could she. He was a tank; impervious to her hitting him. Cesar Milan calls them Gladiator dogs because they become immune to pain and don't give up. If properly trained, this makes them very useful and great with kids. If not, well, they're just unstoppable. He had no neck, nothing to grab to move the head away, no vulnerable part to aim for. I believe they surpass all other breeds in this respect.

I am not saying I think there is no place for them, only that they are comparably more dangerous in the wrong hands.

But you said your puppy has no serious injuries :D

Yes but when I picked him up, the dog was leaping at my feet, trying to grab him. I could not move him away, and when the owner grabbed his collar, she couldn't either. She could only hold him in place so that I could move away. She hit him several times while he was jumping, he completely ignored her. The reason I noticed he didn't appear to have any vulnerable areas was because to be honest, I wanted to kick him to try and get him to go away.