High Fat, High Protein Diet

[Pugmum]

Hi all,

Hope your little fur kids are all doing as well as can be.

As some of you know, Maggie has bladder cancer and is on chemo and piroxicam. With the chemo I dont really have raw food as an option, so I dont know how to get enough fat into her diet - any ideas/suggestions?

She's had some troubles, her white cell count went waaaay low and apparently unrelated also had a badly upset tummy - so bad she could barely walk. We were told told to expect a imminent diarrhea 'explosion', but that did not happen - the pain meds they gave her did produce a number of fully formed stools though.

I had been worried for a few days prior that the amount going in does not not really correlate to the amount coming out and my normally 'regular' little girl was very much not so anymore. Apparently this is not a side effect of the chemo meds (vomiting is - and we've not had that). So i'm looking at her diet, mainly cooked chicken and beef, vegies, apple in the morning, cottage cheese, yogurt, fish oil. Occasional tuna, sardine, egg. I think protein is covered - but not fat.

She's also on 15 ml essiac tea morn and night.

thanks for your ideas - I just cant find anything when I google....

Brigitte

[poodlefan]

Hi all,

Hope your little fur kids are all doing as well as can be.

As some of you know, Maggie has bladder cancer and is on chemo and piroxicam. With the chemo I dont really have raw food as an option, so I dont know how to get enough fat into her diet - any ideas/suggestions?

She's had some troubles, her white cell count went waaaay low and apparently unrelated also had a badly upset tummy - so bad she could barely walk. We were told told to expect a imminent diarrhea 'explosion', but that did not happen - the pain meds they gave her did produce a number of fully formed stools though.

I had been worried for a few days prior that the amount going in does not not really correlate to the amount coming out and my normally 'regular' little girl was very much not so anymore. Apparently this is not a side effect of the chemo meds (vomiting is - and we've not had that). So i'm looking at her diet, mainly cooked chicken and beef, vegies, apple in the morning, cottage cheese, yogurt, fish oil. Occasional tuna, sardine, egg. I think protein is covered - but not fat.

She's also on 15 ml essiac tea morn and night.

thanks for your ideas - I just cant find anything when I google....

Brigitte

You could feed a "performance" or working dog kibble as part of the diet. They tend to have fat levels up around the 30% mark. Failing that, feed the fattiest cuts of meat and perhaps add some quality oil (eg. Omega oil) to the diet.

What does your vet say about fat intake?

[spottychick]

Mix flaxoil in with the cottage cheese - make sure its thoroughly blended tho because flax on it's own is bad for cancer. I used a hand blender and then added fruit or sardines etc to feed my dog when he had cancer. Also, will your dog eat avacados?

Also, for her digestion - while yoghurt is good, have you looked into kefir? It's like a more potent form of yoghurt. I make it all the time for me and my dogs. YOu can buy the culture in a packet (dried powder in sachets) from alternative health stores tho this isn't as good as the proper grain culture, it still makes a pretty decent and healthy kefir. I bought the powder form to practice on until I felt more confident I wouldn't immediately kill off a live culture.

Anyway - some info here:

Doms kefir site (he sells live culture)

And example of the powdered type

NHO

[Pugmum]

Thanks Poodlefan.

I have not looked at kibble as it is generally too high in carb,and we are keeping carb to a minimum, and the raw meat is also out (too risky with the chemo) I dont like to give her fat that has been cooked as I thought that would be bad for her ?

She does get 2 x 1000 mg fish oil per day - maybe theres enough in that ?

maybe a bit of oilve oil ? butter even.....?

The specialist handling her for the chemo says that there is not enough study yet to be certain that carbs affect cancer, hence the whole diet thing. I'm of the opinion that Maggie cant wait for more studies so we'll do it anyway as long as its not going to make things worse. I am kinda floundering on how though......

Brigitte

[poodlefan]

Thanks Poodlefan.

I have not looked at kibble as it is generally too high in carb,and we are keeping carb to a minimum, and the raw meat is also out (too risky with the chemo) I dont like to give her fat that has been cooked as I thought that would be bad for her ?

She does get 2 x 1000 mg fish oil per day - maybe theres enough in that ?

maybe a bit of oilve oil ? butter even.....?

The specialist handling her for the chemo says that there is not enough study yet to be certain that carbs affect cancer, hence the whole diet thing. I'm of the opinion that Maggie cant wait for more studies so we'll do it anyway as long as its not going to make things worse. I am kinda floundering on how though......

Brigitte

In a situation like this, a call to a hollistic vet might be a good investment. There is at least one grain free kibble I can think of - but its very high in protein.

[Pugmum]

Mix flaxoil in with the cottage cheese - make sure its thoroughly blended tho because flax on it's own is bad for cancer. I used a hand blender and then added fruit or sardines etc to feed my dog when he had cancer. Also, will your dog eat avacados?

Also, for her digestion - while yoghurt is good, have you looked into kefir? It's like a more potent form of yoghurt. I make it all the time for me and my dogs. YOu can buy the culture in a packet (dried powder in sachets) from alternative health stores tho this isn't as good as the proper grain culture, it still makes a pretty decent and healthy kefir. I bought the powder form to practice on until I felt more confident I wouldn't immediately kill off a live culture.

Anyway - some info here:

Doms kefir site (he sells live culture)

And example of the powdered type

NHO

Thank-you !

Do you know if it is it okay to take flaxoil and fish oil ?

I had never heard of kefir, but will certainly remedy that

I never thought of avocado either - that woud be an easy answer.

thanks again

Brigitte

[poodlefan]

Mix flaxoil in with the cottage cheese - make sure its thoroughly blended tho because flax on it's own is bad for cancer. I used a hand blender and then added fruit or sardines etc to feed my dog when he had cancer. Also, will your dog eat avacados?

Also, for her digestion - while yoghurt is good, have you looked into kefir? It's like a more potent form of yoghurt. I make it all the time for me and my dogs. YOu can buy the culture in a packet (dried powder in sachets) from alternative health stores tho this isn't as good as the proper grain culture, it still makes a pretty decent and healthy kefir. I bought the powder form to practice on until I felt more confident I wouldn't immediately kill off a live culture.

Anyway - some info here:

Doms kefir site (he sells live culture)

And example of the powdered type

NHO

Thank-you !

Do you know if it is it okay to take flaxoil and fish oil ?

I had never heard of kefir, but will certainly remedy that

I never thought of avocado either - that woud be an easy answer.

thanks again

Brigitte

Well they say flaxseed oil should be fed in rotation with other oils so I'd be alternating them. I doubt a dog would digest avocado well.

[Pugmum]

Rotation is good - I can do that Is there anything I need to know about dosage ?

I was just googling avocado...hmmm...not sure now, there seems to be a bit of controversy about it. Maybe I'll have to go with oils and some not low fat cottage cheese. Liverwurst is high in fat too I think.

Gosh, poor Maggie is turning into a little puggy culinary experiement

Brigitte

[spottychick]

Well they say flaxseed oil should be fed in rotation with other oils so I'd be alternating them. I doubt a dog would digest avocado well.

Hmmmm My fella loved them (as do all my dallies) and had no issues with digesting them - but I don't know that I'd give em to dogs too often. It was just a thought. I have heard they can cause problems with some breeds and the pip/skin is possibly toxic but there seems to be a variety of opinions on that. Perhaps just check with the vet. I think there's actually a dog food in the US with avacado in it - Avoderm.

The flax/cottage cheese thing is a cancer protocol called "budwig diet" which I gave my dog everyday when he was battling cancer but I know of some dog owners who are sometimes using chia seed oil as an alternative to flax. I heard that on a yahoo group for dogs with cancer.

[spottychick]

Thank-you !

Do you know if it is it okay to take flaxoil and fish oil ?

I had never heard of kefir, but will certainly remedy that

I never thought of avocado either - that woud be an easy answer.

thanks again

Brigitte

I can only tell you my dogs (and me for that matter) get both flax oil and fish oil. Usually not at the same time/meal tho. My recent adoptee - who is a stone-former - gets a range of oils because he can't eat a lot of meat etc so I give him flax, sesame, fish oil, canola etc He gets the fish oil every day (especially while he's building up weight) and the other oils are alternated.

[The Spotted Devil]

Have a look at Artemis Maximal (not sure if that's the exact name) - high protein, grain free, top quality food. My cats eat the feline version and are doing fabulously well on it.

[cowanbree]

Add pumpkin if she will eat it. Adds bulk and makes her regular, works wonders

Edited April 1, 2010 by cowanbree

[cavNrott]

When I was feeding my cancer dog I stopped all raw food and cooked her meals. She had full fat cottage cheese with cold pressed flaxseed oil for breakfast, mixed really well as Spottychick mentioned. I'd let it sit for 15 minutes or so before feeding her. I didn't give flaxseed oil with any other meals but gave her Krill oil capsules every day. Another good oil for cancer dogs is deep sea shark oil. It must be deep sea oil, not shark liver oil. I gave her Vitamin E oil capsules too.

I eliminated as many carbs and sugars as possible. The oncologist said to feed her a high protein high fat diet. Skin on chicken mince is good as is minced beef. With the meat I would add in sliced zuchini cooked in a little grapseed oil and mashed sweet potato or mashed pumpkin. All her vegies were organic. Her nightcap was full cream lactose free milk with live culture organic whole yoghurt.

I didn't feed dry food at all but if you want to feed dry, Artemis Maximal is grain free.

My girl's normal weight was 42kg. When she went onto the cancer diet she gained 7kg...so she didn't suffer from cachexia as many cancer patients do.

[Caesars mum]

if you are after fats you could cook up lamb flaps, I do this for Caesar, as he has no kibble due to MCT. I dice it up and cook it over night with pumpkin and then put it through the food processor, and freeze it down. he loves it.

[spottychick]

Rotation is good - I can do that Is there anything I need to know about dosage ?

I was just googling avocado...hmmm...not sure now, there seems to be a bit of controversy about it. Maybe I'll have to go with oils and some not low fat cottage cheese. Liverwurst is high in fat too I think.

Gosh, poor Maggie is turning into a little puggy culinary experiement

Brigitte

The only proviso I worried about with amounts of flax oil with a dog battling cancer is related to the ratio of oil to cottage cheese. You do need to balance that right.

This site might help

Budwig diet

As for the controversy re avacados - I found so much info on both sides (and all bits in between!!) it was hard to work out what to think. I'm definite that they shouldn't have the skin or pip but I also had vets recommend avacado flesh as beneficial to cancer dogs. But it's a difficult call - I know I was always wary as soon as I saw "toxic" but when there's too many opposing opinions I usually abandon the internet white-noise and go ask someone local who knows stuff (both conventional experts and alternative - eg a holistic vet like someone else suggested!!). It sure can get confusing and stressful when you deal with cancer......

These people are great to talk to dogcancer.net

[Staffyluv]

Mix flaxoil in with the cottage cheese - make sure its thoroughly blended tho because flax on it's own is bad for cancer. I used a hand blender and then added fruit or sardines etc to feed my dog when he had cancer. Also, will your dog eat avacados?

Also, for her digestion - while yoghurt is good, have you looked into kefir? It's like a more potent form of yoghurt. I make it all the time for me and my dogs. YOu can buy the culture in a packet (dried powder in sachets) from alternative health stores tho this isn't as good as the proper grain culture, it still makes a pretty decent and healthy kefir. I bought the powder form to practice on until I felt more confident I wouldn't immediately kill off a live culture.

Anyway - some info here:

Doms kefir site (he sells live culture)

And example of the powdered type

NHO

This is what we do - flax oil and cottage cheese and either more cheese (cheddar) or some banana...Mis well and let it sit for a bit before giving it to him. He gets fish oil tablets as well.

All meat should be cooked for cancer dogs (remove all bones before cooking as they can't have any cooked bones but I guess you already know that)

Digestion problems can be caused by the chemo (Ollie still has issues and it has been 4 years since he had chemo).. We got carafate from the vet and we get the prescription filled at the chemist because it is cheaper than getting it from the vets.

Dogs can also have mylanta - from memory Ollie is 23kg and had about 4-5ml in a small syringe squirted down the back of his mouth.

A really good tablet to give to improve the stomach and intestines is the Inner Health tablets from the chemist - they are a bit expensive but they really do work.

[Pugmum]

Thanks Staffyluv,

I've sort of been winging it. Apparetnty the stomach troubles Maggie has are not considered as a normal side effect of chemo - yet here we go again, same time in the chemo cycle she starts to slow down poop-wise. Gross as it sounds I have been checking what does come out (through the baggie of course ) and its very 'rubbery' in consistency. I hope I can keep it moving through with the psyllium husk she now gets every morning and twice a day during this danger week in her cycle.

Maggie eats natural full fat yogurt every day. Actually, she'll eat just about anything and at the moment wants LOTS of it. Last night I gave her dinner then a couple of hours later another couple of spoons of cooked chicken w/pumpkin as its cooler and she seems so humgry. she had put on half a kilo last trip to chemo so at kleast I know she is getting enough food - she just seems to want more. I dont know if that caused the night we had - I heard her tummy gurgling all night, she went out a couple of times to pee (which is not normal for her) and she seemed restless all night.

Hubby set up a cam at home so I can watch her while I am at work - of course she's sleeping like a baby now.

I mix flaxseed with quark as part of her evening meal - I over do the quark ratio as I cant get too small an amount to mix. She has fish oil every morning and also a rotation of sesame, canola, olive and peanut oils.

Would the inner health plus be okay to use in conjunction with everything else? I'm thihnking this could be a good option for her as she has only just come off weeks of ab's and her good stomach bacteria must be wiped out.

I think the concern withthe carafate would be the potential for constipation given that things are already slowing. I had not thought of mylanta - nor has this been offered, I will certainly check with her vet.

Apart from all that she is a very happy bouncy girl. SHe looks so healthy that if you didn't watch her pee you'd never know she was ill. Her chemo seems to be having no affect. we try one more time in a fortnight then have to decide if to go on. Its hard to know what to do - they cant see her tumours with ultrasound (behind bone) to determine any impact and you dont know if the chemo is at least slowing the cancer growth.

Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it. I hope Ollie is gowing strong.

Brigitte

[4Kelpies]

I really recommend this list http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineC...?yguid=69740366 I had wonderful support and information there when my dogs had cancer. I also found this helpful with diet. http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/cancer-diet/ The articles has plenty of links to other helpful sites.

Best wishes and healing thoughts to you and Maggie.

[Staffyluv]

Check with the vet - I always recommend that you do that even with info that has worked for others because everyones case is just that bit different.

I really can't see how the inner health plus could hurt to be honest but ask the vet, just to be sure.

Mylanta was suggested to us because Ollie developed a very small stomach ulcer and although not proven, the vet does think it probably come from the chemo...

Ollie's protocol was 3 weekly (week 1 was chemo via drip, week 2 was chemo via 5 tablets and then a week off) for 6 months - it was bloody hard. More so with having blood tests every Monday before the chemo on Wednesday to make sure the white cell count was high enough to have it...

You are right the carafate might bind her up more, so forget that. You sound like you are already adding fibre to her diet, so you have that covered - is she drinking plenty of water?