Rspca Calls For Getting Tough With Breeders

[Mystiqview]

I'd prefer to see no permits and no restictions on numbers. I'd like to see emphasis on the chipping and rego. Got to start with the basics or it just doesn't work.

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers?

If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world???

The problem with this in Brisbane and surrounding shires is this:

To get a permit, you MUST belong to the CCCQ or Greyhound body. Without that membership, you cannot get a breeder's permit. You MAY be able to apply for excess dog permit, but I am not sure about the nitty gritties that need to be done (desexing etc).

BYB cannot get that permit, so they already save $200/year in permit fees. Being a member of CCCQ, you pay about $40/dog/year for registration. Whole dog is about $90/year/dog. In Brisbane, you can only have two dogs without a permit - four with a permit.

This paints a bad picture.

Dogs are unregistered with local council

No permit is obtained to breed or necessarily have more than two dogs. Depending on your neighbours and the type of dog you have, I am sure you can "hide" 4 dogs easily especially if they do not bark or cause any other nuisence behaviour.

You advertise in the local paper using a mobile number or a free website dedicated to selling animals

You are untracable (compulsary microchipping, vaccination, etc)

You do not have to abide by any code of ethics from an association

You meet prospective buyers at a neutral area and not on the property (quarantine reasons or other BS reasons)

The only way a BYB is caught if council bothers to chase them up (either by their ad in the paper/online ad) or someone makes a complaint about that person.

No wonder BYB is rife!

Meanwhile Registered, Ethical breeders pay the council permits/registration, ANKC association fees, health test breeding stock, vaccinate, microchip, offer lifetime support to puppy buyers AND (for most) let puppy buyers come to the property to see puppies, mother, relatives etc.

[Chocolatelover]

I'd prefer to see no permits and no restictions on numbers. I'd like to see emphasis on the chipping and rego. Got to start with the basics or it just doesn't work.

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers?

If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world???

The problem with this in Brisbane and surrounding shires is this:

To get a permit, you MUST belong to the CCCQ or Greyhound body. Without that membership, you cannot get a breeder's permit. You MAY be able to apply for excess dog permit, but I am not sure about the nitty gritties that need to be done (desexing etc).

BYB cannot get that permit, so they already save $200/year in permit fees. Being a member of CCCQ, you pay about $40/dog/year for registration. Whole dog is about $90/year/dog. In Brisbane, you can only have two dogs without a permit - four with a permit.

This paints a bad picture.

Dogs are unregistered with local council

No permit is obtained to breed or necessarily have more than two dogs. Depending on your neighbours and the type of dog you have, I am sure you can "hide" 4 dogs easily especially if they do not bark or cause any other nuisence behaviour.

You advertise in the local paper using a mobile number or a free website dedicated to selling animals

You are untracable (compulsary microchipping, vaccination, etc)

You do not have to abide by any code of ethics from an association

You meet prospective buyers at a neutral area and not on the property (quarantine reasons or other BS reasons)

The only way a BYB is caught if council bothers to chase them up (either by their ad in the paper/online ad) or someone makes a complaint about that person.

No wonder BYB is rife!

Meanwhile Registered, Ethical breeders pay the council permits/registration, ANKC association fees, health test breeding stock, vaccinate, microchip, offer lifetime support to puppy buyers AND (for most) let puppy buyers come to the property to see puppies, mother, relatives etc.

OK I'm a bit confused (Doesn't take much!)

I was actually referring to the ACT law that Diva was talking about:

"You can't keep an undesexed dog without a special permit. I can't remember the fee for the permit, but the discount for being a member of a canine association makes it affordable. It's pretty steep without the discount though. If you sell an undesexed dog you have to advise the name and contact details of the buyer."

So unless you join a canine association the cost of the permit will be in the 100s (from what I understood). I was actually questioning why this was seen as a bad thing? This is sounding different from what you are saying happens in Queensland where you are unable to purchase a permit if you are a BYB and do not belong to a canine association???

[Mystiqview]

Sorry, I must of not been clear.

You are supposed to have a permit. The conditions vary from state to state.

BYB Australia wide (small operation ones which when added together would be equal or greater to the farms).

BYB's don't bother with permits. Simple. It costs money to have permits/council registrations. No permit/registration = no tracability to the local authorities. BYB's do not microchip and in some cases do not vaccinate and sell pups at 6 weeks. Another $$ saving on vet fees. Decreased overhead costs = more profit.

The law is there. But unfortunately, BYB's fly under all the official radars. It is only the registered breeders who do the right thing the law REALLY applies to (although the law is supposed to apply to all). As registered breeders are tracked via local council and their relevant Association.

ETA: my point in Qld is BYB's also fly under the radar from local authorities as again, without a permit they are not traced by local authorities. There is no incentive to buy a permit. Even from what I have read in the ACT, there is no incentive to buy permits as they cost money, so if they can operate without one, why not?? I am thinking of all the local classified ads in the Saturday paper. A litter of puppies here in someone's back yard, another there.. Add all the litters up for all the breeds, there are 100's of unregistered BYB puppies potentially sold each weekend. Add to the local paper, that other website and all the puppies advertised on there every day... You cannot tell me all those "breeders" have the necessary permits/dog registrations to breed from their local council.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Mystiqview

[Chocolatelover]

Sorry, I must of not been clear.

You are supposed to have a permit. The conditions vary from state to state.

BYB Australia wide (small operation ones which when added together would be equal or greater to the farms).

BYB's don't bother with permits. Simple. It costs money to have permits/council registrations. No permit/registration = no tracability to the local authorities. BYB's do not microchip and in some cases do not vaccinate and sell pups at 6 weeks. Another $$ saving on vet fees. Decreased overhead costs = more profit.

The law is there. But unfortunately, BYB's fly under all the official radars. It is only the registered breeders who do the right thing the law REALLY applies to (although the law is supposed to apply to all).

Yeah I do get what your saying. But I guess that applies to most laws. People drive cars unlicensed and get away with it - but it doesn't mean we should abolish licensing laws.

And how easy would it be to catch these BYBs - phone the number in the paper, say you want to buy a pup, go over to pick it up and ask for their permit. Oh - no permit - here's your fine then. Where are the pups microchip numbers? Oops, another fine.

And good for the economy cause it would create jobs and rack up big revenue in fines

[WreckitWhippet]

I'd prefer to see no permits and no restictions on numbers. I'd like to see emphasis on the chipping and rego. Got to start with the basics or it just doesn't work.

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers?

If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world???

But the BYBer doesn't bother in most cases to chip or register and they are even less likely to pay for a permit. Once again it's the registered breeders who pay for the permit, register and chip all of their dogs.

Many people can't care for one dog , some can manage ten or more without issues and provide for their needs. Restrictions on numbers doesn't work either and again it limits what the ethical registered breeder can do and makes not an ounce of difference to those who can't/won't meet a dogs needs.

[Chocolatelover]

Yeah, I wish there was a simple answer to it all. But maybe if they enforced permits, chipping, numbers and registration then it would all be more effective. I think. Like I said, it really would be so easy to nab these people, everywhere you look you see advertisements for pups

But if ethical breeders don't make money out of breeding - which most claim - then how do they afford large numbers of dogs? How do they care for them, love them, exercise and socialise them and hold down jobs to pay for all of this. Purely curious that's all as I struggle sometimes to look after my family and two dogs.

[Souff]

But if ethical breeders don't make money out of breeding - which most claim - then how do they afford large numbers of dogs? How do they care for them, love them, exercise and socialise them and hold down jobs to pay for all of this. Purely curious that's all as I struggle sometimes to look after my family and two dogs.

There are some very ethical registered breeders who probably don't turn a profit, because in addition to working in another role in life, they pay staff to ensure that their dogs are properly cared for and they have kennel facilities that are cleaner than some people's kitchens. You wont find them in suburbia, they have acreage so they wont bother you their neighbours too much. They breed beautiful dogs in excellent conditions and they do it for the love of the breed.

It is a great shame that they are tossed into the same basket as the grubs who are turning out sub-standard dogs in appalling conditions, based on the fact that they own a certain number of dogs.

Some women are not capable of looking after just 1 child, while other women are capable of raising 6 of their own well .... and then taking on foster children and doing voluntary work in their local community or helping hubby with the family business!

It is the same with dog breeders. Some are just grubs. Some are excellent managers. It often has little to do with the number of dogs they own.

Souff

[Mystiqview]

But if ethical breeders don't make money out of breeding - which most claim - then how do they afford large numbers of dogs? How do they care for them, love them, exercise and socialise them and hold down jobs to pay for all of this. Purely curious that's all as I struggle sometimes to look after my family and two dogs.

There are some very ethical registered breeders who probably don't turn a profit, because in addition to working in another role in life, they pay staff to ensure that their dogs are properly cared for and they have kennel facilities that are cleaner than some people's kitchens. You wont find them in suburbia, they have acreage so they wont bother you their neighbours too much. They breed beautiful dogs in excellent conditions and they do it for the love of the breed.

It is a great shame that they are tossed into the same basket as the grubs who are turning out sub-standard dogs in appalling conditions, based on the fact that they own a certain number of dogs.

Some women are not capable of looking after just 1 child, while other women are capable of raising 6 of their own well .... and then taking on foster children and doing voluntary work in their local community or helping hubby with the family business!

It is the same with dog breeders. Some are just grubs. Some are excellent managers. It often has little to do with the number of dogs they own.

Souff

Well said.

I have four dogs in suburbia and a husband. No two-legged kids. My dogs range from 6 months to nearly 3 years. My dogs live inside the house and out. The two older dogs (3 years and 18 months) sleep in the bedroom with us. The two younger ones being pups still, sleep in crates down in the laundry (we have split level house). Both myself and my husband work full time. There are no one else to care for the dogs. They are not kennelled. Two stay in the house during the day (they are clean dogs), and the two young ones go outside.

Even for small, I suppose hobby breeders like myself. I breed maximum ONE litter a year. The last few litters was about me breeding something that I thought was good enough for the ring, as like many a new breeder starting off, you rarely start with Champion Material. I have bred a total of four litters to date. There have been stud fees, DNA testing, Hip/elbow testing for each breeding bitch. The first litter I went with my dog interstate. So airfare, stud fees, accomodation/food, there were AI fees. Vet fees, changing of flight details as the bitch was not ready when I had booked to come back. I eventually got the natural matings.. At the time we were supposed to be on a flight back to Brisbane.

The bitch had 5 puppies @ $500 ea = $2500

So basic run down:

Flights: $600

Stud: $800

AI/Vet: $200

DNA testing /hip-elbow scoring $660 (CEA: $180, TNS/CL: $130, Hip/Elbow Score: $350)

Puppy Vaccinations: $350

Food/ bitch vaccinations for 2 years: $750 ($75 for C5 vacc. $25/month food)

Training fees (obedience): $200 plus entrires to competitions.

I am sure you can add extras like toys, collars, leads etc, training clinics etc.

Total: $3560

Loss of $1060

Not included there are council permit fees of $200/year and Registration of $40/dog/year. CCCQ membership fees and prefix maintenance.

Some of these costs can be attributed to normal dog ownership (dog registration, standard food and vacc etc).

This would be a similar set of sums for any small ethical hobby breeder once you REALLY sit down and work it out. I have recently gotten back into showing. I can spend on a weekend anywhere between $40-$100 in show entries, plus fuel getting to those shows. The other week I went to a show 2.5 hours away and used a full take of fuel worth about $85.

One litter I sent the bitch away for a stud. I had AI charges, transport and stud fees as well as the regular food/vaccination costs for litter and mum. Only got 2 puppies. One I kept the other I sold for the stud fee of $800.

The only ones who do make money are those who keep their overheads right down and charge excess prices for their dogs. If you have a dog and bitch in your back yard, do not health test or anything like that and charge the same going rate as ethical breeders, then of course you may make money. Likewise if you keep pumping out litters each season.

[~Anne~]

I find it fascinating that people wear 'monetary loses' as a badge almost, and profits are looked down upon.

[WreckitWhippet]

Yeah, I wish there was a simple answer to it all. But maybe if they enforced permits, chipping, numbers and registration then it would all be more effective. I think. Like I said, it really would be so easy to nab these people, everywhere you look you see advertisements for pups

But if ethical breeders don't make money out of breeding - which most claim - then how do they afford large numbers of dogs? How do they care for them, love them, exercise and socialise them and hold down jobs to pay for all of this. Purely curious that's all as I struggle sometimes to look after my family and two dogs.

What's your idea of "large numbers"

[Souff]

What has always given Souff the irrits is that a breeder is condemned - because they own more than a certain NUMBER of dogs, they must be a puppy farmer.

Wrong!

Condemn them if their practices stink, but get your facts straight first!

Many good breeders (who have more dogs than some people would ever own) often have a few favourite oldies lounging around the verandah, eating up any meagre hint of a profit, getting all the needed vet care,love and attention, until they go to the bridge. They are not put down after their show and breeding life is over, many of these dogs have a right royal retirement. But they are still counted in the number of dogs that are owned by the breeder.

That is not going to happen at a puppy farm (puppy mill). If you are old and not breeding, you are OUT.

Then up in the kennels, they will have two beautiful bitches about 5 years old who have been bred from only twice in their lives, because the right stud dog has not been available on all occasions, or it was not convenient for other reasons for the breeder to have bred from them more often.

This would not have been tolerated in a puppy farm. They would have been mated to the first available male, or whatever breed.

Their breeding bitches will have a litter once every 18 months, not every 6 months. No back to back litters. The breeding bitches are as good as any show winner and they have many show ribbons to their credit. They are always in excellent condition and this is confirmed by their vet, who visits the premises.

The condition of dogs at puppy farms has often been found to be closer to the state where it is humane to euthanase, rather than treat.

Dogs from puppy farms often do not enjoy good health as a normal part of their life.

Exercise and socialisation? A must. And these dogs are well socialised and well exercised through a variety of means and they are not locked up in small dog runs for the majority of the day. Yes, they are managed in areas for safety and you will also find some of these dogs with the owner or staff when they leave the property. When they go to town, some of these dogs are in the car with them, some go to organised canine activities, and often staff have pups with them overnight at their homes, for socialisation. Good breeders know the importance of socialisation.

Puppy farmers do not have places like this, and they do not have dogs like this.

SO, BEFORE YOU USE THE TERM "PUPPY FARMER" - PLEASE REMEMBER:

Puppy farms exploit dogs for profit, no matter what their numbers are.

An excellent breeder can have the same number of dogs, but never be guilty of the same sins that you will condemn a puppy farmer for. Many of these people have made a huge contribution of their lives so that you, the dog owner, can have high quality dogs made available to you. You have met some of them at dog shows and they have been happy to give their time to you and many others, to tell you of what to look for in a good dog. You will find some of them, or their friends, as volunteers at agility and obedience classes, or taking one of their dogs to the local aged care home to bring a bit of joy to some oldies lives. And much more. Many are no longer with us, but they have left behind some wonderful dogs and some great doggy legends.

The animal world is a better place because of the contribution that many of these breeders have made.

They obeyed the council rules and had their kennels inspected and spent many thousands of dollars on the right systems and facilities.

They did NOT have dogs sleeping in wrecked cars and jammed into tiny filthy crates in old caravans.

They did the right thing by their dogs and by society.

Yet on paper - based on numbers alone - it is all too easy for these legends to be tossed into the puppy farmer basket, by people who don't know them.

Take care when labelling people - your labels can sometimes be very, very wrong.

Souff

[Mystiqview]

I find it fascinating that people wear 'monetary loses' as a badge almost, and profits are looked down upon.

It has nothing about wearing "monetry losses as a badge".

People read these forums and somehow I find it amazing that some still continue to think we make money hand over foot. Even with all the posts on DOL over the years to the contary. I know of other breeders who have posted up the costs of raising a litter to try and get the point across that if you do it for the true love of the breed and properly, there is not a lot of money in breeding. In some cases yes, you may be in the black on a litter. But somewhere down the track, I am sure there was a "in the red" litter(s) as well.

There are possibly some registered breeders who DO breed that may make a profit from puppies.

Like many hobbies, they are that. It is generally rare that a hobby makes the person money. You may get some expenses back, but to be rolling in money from the hobby is not common. A hobby is done for enjoyment and for an interest in that hobby.

It suprises me that some on DOL, especially those who have been here a long time like myself, still continue to think breeders roll in the cash from breeding.

I agree with Souff. Breeders are condemed because they have more than one or two dogs. Some people cannot even look after one dog let alone more. Some people I would not even trust a pet rock to, let alone a living breathing animal.

The neighbour across the road has two dogs. They don't breed. The dogs are left to their own devices in the back yard all day and night. You never see anyone paying attention to them, other than to throw them their dinner. I never see them go for a walk or even played with. The dogs bark day and night for attention. They are skinny and their coats look like crap.

I have four dogs. They get walked, taken to the beach, parks, camping, live inside and are an active part of the family. They have the best vet care and food and want for nothing. They have never seen a boarding kennel - nor ever will. If we go on holidays, they come too. They were taken on a 14 day tour last year. A dog trailer was bought especially to take away the "family". We stayed in some caravan parks. People around us, were surprised there were four dogs with us, they were that well behaved.

And breeders are yet questioned how they look after and give attention/socialisation to multiple animals??

The same can be said of some families who have more than one or two children? But that seems to be different because they are human.

Just because one person cannot handle one or two dogs, does not mean another cannot handle multiple dogs. Just like children. You MUST make the time to give to them, you MUST make time to train and nurture them to be well adjusted members of the community, albeit the animal one.

Puppy mills and unethical breeders just leave the dogs to their own devices in the back yard. Unfortunately we are all tarred with the one brush, without people stopping to think there is a difference. If you breed therefore you are rolling in cash and are in it for the money and you do not care for the welfare of the animals in your care.

That is so far from the truth for many an ethical breeder.

[~Anne~]

There are possibly some registered breeders who DO breed that may make a profit from puppies.

No, not "possibly" at all and not "some". They DO and many do. You may not, thousands may not, but many do.

As I said, I can't understand this whole thing about profit vs loss. It is not a crime to make money. It only becomes an issue when the breeder puts profit before the welfare of the breed, the dogs and the off spring.

There is a similar thing in rescue. Dog help anyone who admits to making money or who admits to running at a profit.

As I said, I find it fascinating. To be honest, with a healthy bitch that has a litter of healthy pups without any problems (and lets face it, isn't that one of the things you are actually breeding for??), if you don't make a profit then there is something seriously wrong with your intelligence and your breeding. You could not help but to make a profit on a most breeds of dog. Your profit may only be a few dollars and it may very well go back into your breeding program, but a profit is a profit and it is not a dirty word.

Edited to add - The word 'profit' does not mean that someone is 'rolling in cash'. It simply means that there is money left over once the outgoings are tallied.

Edited again to add - If there a loads of issues (emergency ceasars, failing pups) then possibly your breeding program and dogs are not good enough for breeding, or you are incredibly unlucky and perhaps should just give up.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Mystiqview]

Anne,

With my breed, we generally have free whelpers. It is not a common thing to have C-sections as a regular occurance, but of course they happen for a myriad of reasons. If you did have a bitch that needed C-sections each time, then they should be culled from the breeding program. IMO.

If you are lucky enough to export OS and charge accordingly, then you may certainly make a profit on a litter. The larger show/sporting kennels may well do make money. Those who breed for the fad and charge for it, will no doubt make money, especially if they stash a lot of their dogs into "foster" homes, then get htem back for the respective litters. Most of the small time ethical registered breeders I know do not make money.

[Mystiqview]

Edited again to add - If there a loads of issues (emergency ceasars, failing pups) then possibly your breeding program and dogs are not good enough for breeding, or you are incredibly unlucky and perhaps should just give up.

I have never had to have a C-section. Thankfully. One litter of two pups are just one of those things. It happens to the best of kennels.

Not everyone has a champion bitch to start off with. Many a breeder starts off with an average or better than average bitch. The possible champion material ones are generally kept by the breeder.

It is what you do after that. The aim is to improve. If you improve then there is a chance. It may have taken two generations on one line to get something that is now at least showing promise and to competitive in the ring.

Everyone had to start somewhere. Even the big name kennels.

[centitout]

Edited again to add - If there a loads of issues (emergency ceasars, failing pups) then possibly your breeding program and dogs are not good enough for breeding, or you are incredibly unlucky and perhaps should just give up.

I have never had to have a C-section. Thankfully. One litter of two pups are just one of those things. It happens to the best of kennels.

Not everyone has a champion bitch to start off with. Many a breeder starts off with an average or better than average bitch. The possible champion material ones are generally kept by the breeder.

It is what you do after that. The aim is to improve. If you improve then there is a chance. It may have taken two generations on one line to get something that is now at least showing promise and to competitive in the ring.

Everyone had to start somewhere. Even the big name kennels.

:D Couldnt have said it better myself.

I kept the 2 best pups from the two litters to run on,these are the best i have bred,and it is the second generation from that line.

I made a small profit of $2000 all up-this went back into a new stud,and then i will have 4 dogs to hip/elbow and cardiac test this year-total of $2500 just there.

I get so sick of people thinking because your bitch had 12 pups,you are rolling in it-I cant even begin to outline my costs this year,if someone makes a profit-bloody good on them,it probably makes up for the other litters that dont for whatever reason.

I have 6 dogs now,1 male being trained for SAR,1 retired bitch,another pet bitch,the new stud male,my girl that i have had 1 litter from and Edward ,her pup that i am showing.They all get socialised,played with ,excercised,inside time.

Some people cant handle 1,i can handle 6 +work+4 kids,it is called TIME MANAGEMENT AND BEING ORGANISED.

[Souff]

Edited again to add - If there a loads of issues (emergency ceasars, failing pups) then possibly your breeding program and dogs are not good enough for breeding, or you are incredibly unlucky and perhaps should just give up.

Anne, I would suggest that you need to talk to an experienced vet about the reasons some bitches have to have emergency C-sections.

Emergency C-sections can happen to bitches from free-whelping lines - bitches that have delivered pups naturally in previous litters.

Ask the vet about the pup that tried to be born sideways and got stuck in the birth canal, and the breeder and vet had to deliver the pups in the middle of the night at the vet's surgery.

Ask the vet about the pups that were locked into the horn by excessive tissue growth caused by abnormal hormone production, pups that had no hope of being delivered naturally, and yet the bitch was from free-whelping lines and went on to have other pregnancies and deliver the pups safely and naturally.

We don't just "give up" because the whelping did not go according to plan. We pay the vet bill, analyse what went wrong, and often we go on to breed another litter from the same bitch but just to be on the safe side, we use another stud dog.

When you know what you are talking about in regard to emergency c-sections, then please feel free to come back and say "then possibly your breeding program and dogs are not good enough for breeding, or you are incredibly unlucky and perhaps should just give up."

Until then, have a nice Easter.

Souff

[~Anne~]

:D

Souff, you're are, if nothing else, fabulous for a laugh when you get on a roll of inconsistencies.

You have a super duper Easter too now ya hear.

P.S. A puppy farmer can be a registered breeder and an unregistered breeder. There is no distinction. Large numbers of dogs being bred are only being bred for one purpose and it 'aint neccessarily for quality. Not all puppy farmers keep dogs in soiled filthy cages either, but they are still none the less, a puppy farmer - purebred dogs or mutts - no diff.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Souff]

:D

Souff, you're are, if nothing else, fabulous for a laugh when you get on a roll of inconsistencies.

You have a super duper Easter too now ya hear.

Dog breeding is full of inconsistencies Anne.

It is about the most inexact science I know!

Souff

[centitout]

I wish i could give up-i would have enough to buy a house now instead of renting.I have had to have 2 c-sections done-1 bitch had 18 and the last 8 were becoming stressed.I did have the option of doing nothing and just putting her on high dose AB'S and syntocin ,they would have oozed out eventually as the vet put it.But i did the right thing by the bitch and had her done and desexed on the table.

Bitch 2-one litter normally no complications,next(last litter) 4 pups then a massive dead walrus baby blocking the horn,so c -section and desexed.

So if this was the case,i am just unlucky and should give up,or the dogs are unworthy of being bred?Which is it?