Puppy Mills On The 7.30 Report

[LizT]

I think the issue at hand is "How to stop companion animals, such as dogs, who for hundreds of thousands of years have chosen to be the companion of man, from being "farmed" like sheep, cattle or poultry. That is what everyone, pet owners, breeders , RSPCA and oranisations like PETA should be working towards as a common goal.

[Steve]

I think the issue at hand is "How to stop companion animals, such as dogs, who for hundreds of thousands of years have chosen to be the companion of man, from being "farmed" like sheep, cattle or poultry. That is what everyone, pet owners, breeders , RSPCA and oranisations like PETA should be working towards as a common goal.

Yep but they all have to see what role they play too and in order to clearly see what potential consequeces there may be for what anyone THINKS is the answer they need to listen and learn from the other.

Woofandhoof I also believe its time for action and I know what I do for 18 hours a day everyday for exactly that reason.

[alpha bet]

Obviously a very emotive issue here - One I feel that requires us all to stop and consider what can really be achieved. For what its worth I would like to offer some food for thought.

1. People will always be looking for puppies - the question is how do we influence them as to where to go to find one?

a) If (and its a big IF) we could stop pet shops then we start to stop the impulse or sympathy purchase we also restrict a retail outlet for the BYB and puppy farms.

b) If we can influence government to implement a ruling that dogs are not to be classed as livestock for the purpose of breeding, then we can hamper the commercial puppy mill because they dont meet the companion needs.

c) Also if the government was able to be made to recognise dog breeding under perhaps something like "Companion Animal Act" then conditions etc could be required. Perhaps if more than one unsterilised bitch in a residence requires you to have a permit with council as a 'Breeder" (even if you dont have a litter). This would restrict our BYB to perhaps one litter a year whereas members of the Breed Associations who have a breed prefix have already met the criteria for a Council Breeder Certificate.

2. How Do We Meet The Need of Families for Puppies - If we wish to remove the need for puppy farms we need to increase the access to the public.

a) If Breeders keep restricting the availability of breeding stock i.e. selling Limited Register Pups to anyone they don't know means that we are restricting potential new people into the showing and breeding for the future. We have all started out somewhere by getting a purebred dog and then exploring different fields of the Dog World.

b) Limited Register was initially brought out to provide breeders the opportunity to sell pups they felt were not to standard as pets but if pups were of quality then they have the Main Register - nowdays many breeders seem to sell Limited to most people regardless of what the quality of the pup. This is restricting bloodlines - breeders may run on their own stock to breed with but seem afraid that others might 'ruin their breed' - instead they are keeping the breeding stock within their own 'little circle'.

c) The Seminar at Monash that Steve mentioned - Restricting our breeding stock was a major point brought forward by the research. After my trip last month to a Conference in the USA this was again a point that was brought up very strongly.

3. The Future for Breeders - how do we as the current breeders work to ensure the future of our individual breeds?

a) When I was a 19 yo I purchased my first pure bred dog - older members of the club spent time with me to nurture my love of the dogs and encourage and educate me. My first breeding bitch was given to me on Breeders terms (breeder got one litter only) one of these Mentors had me involved through the whole process. Different people in the breed gave me easy access to their kennels and paperwork so that I could see the surveys of different stock that their stud dogs had produced. We also had stud dogs easily available to view not just their showing but their working ability and their everyday behaviour. Who is honestly mentoring new people these days?

b) You have to be prepared to take a risk and sell on pups with Main Register - nurture the people to consider showing or some of the dog sports - perhaps it will be them or perhaps it will be their children who become the future of dogs.

c) Some breeders are offering breeding stock to people however adding ridiculous conditions - e.g. pay $1000 to $1500 for the dog but breeder retains the bitch in their name and has control over who you breed to etc. mind you the pet owner is responsible for all the cost of keeping the dog and has to get the breeders permission for any changes. How many potential future show/breed people would be put off by this form of Contract?

d) Again another thing that came out of the Monash Seminar - the temperament of the parents is important.

Be honest about your bitches - are they good enough in temperament to breed ( I dont give a flying fig if they are the best in show if the temperament is dicey ). If your bitch has a good temperament then do her the justice of finding the dog with an equally good temperament. Who of you genuinely spends any time to see what the temperament of the dog is. Dont take the word of the owner - view him yourself - how do we know what the Imported Sperm is from a dog who is good enough. There are plenty of people bringing good dogs here from OS - support these breeders and view those dogs and local bred first before opting for imported sperm.

4. Perhaps we need a Code of Practice for raising puppies even for members of Breed Association.

Look up some of the pure dog breeders and they might have 2, 3 or even 4 litters over a couple of months. In all honesty how can breeders really say they are meeting the social needs of this many pups as well as their adult dogs. They might have 20 pups in some months - after feeding and cleaning not just the pups but the dozen or so adult dogs they are running at home - how much time do they really have to spend on these pups or on finding the right homes for them - Let alone the fact that many are working full time jobs and often away showing on weekends. Are these breeders any better than the puppy farmers or the BYB....?

I could go on and on - these are just a few thought - but you probably wouldnt be bothered reading.......

Just remember the FUTURE OF BREEDING is what we need to consider. Not our own egos.

Edited April 3, 2010 by alpha bet

[quoll]

Obviously a very emotive issue here - One I feel that requires us all to stop and consider what can really be achieved. For what its worth I would like to offer some food for thought.

1. People will always be looking for puppies - the question is how do we influence them as to where to go to find one?

a) If (and its a big IF) we could stop pet shops then we start to stop the impulse or sympathy purchase we also restrict a retail outlet for the BYB and puppy farms.

b) If we can influence government to implement a ruling that dogs are not to be classed as livestock for the purpose of breeding, then we can hamper the commercial puppy mill because they dont meet the companion needs.

c) Also if the government was able to be made to recognise dog breeding under perhaps something like "Companion Animal Act" then conditions etc could be required. Perhaps if more than one unsterilised bitch in a residence requires you to have a permit with council as a 'Breeder" (even if you dont have a litter). This would restrict our BYB to perhaps one litter a year whereas members of the Breed Associations who have a breed prefix have already met the criteria for a Council Breeder Certificate.

2. How Do We Meet The Need of Families for Puppies - If we wish to remove the need for puppy farms we need to increase the access to the public.

a) If Breeders keep restricting the availability of breeding stock i.e. selling Limited Register Pups to anyone they don't know means that we are restricting potential new people into the showing and breeding for the future. We have all started out somewhere by getting a purebred dog and then exploring different fields of the Dog World.

b) Limited Register was initially brought out to provide breeders the opportunity to sell pups they felt were not to standard as pets but if pups were of quality then they have the Main Register - nowdays many breeders seem to sell Limited to most people regardless of what the quality of the pup. This is restricting bloodlines - breeders may run on their own stock to breed with but seem afraid that others might 'ruin their breed' - instead they are keeping the breeding stock within their own 'little circle'.

c) The Seminar at Monash that Steve mentioned - Restricting our breeding stock was a major point brought forward by the research. After my trip last month to a Conference in the USA this was again a point that was brought up very strongly.

3. The Future for Breeders - how do we as the current breeders work to ensure the future of our individual breeds?

a) When I was a 19 yo I purchased my first pure bred dog - older members of the club spent time with me to nurture my love of the dogs and encourage and educate me. My first breeding bitch was given to me on Breeders terms (breeder got one litter only) one of these Mentors had me involved through the whole process. Different people in the breed gave me easy access to their kennels and paperwork so that I could see the surveys of different stock that their stud dogs had produced. We also had stud dogs easily available to view not just their showing but their working ability and their everyday behaviour. Who is honestly mentoring new people these days?

b) You have to be prepared to take a risk and sell on pups with Main Register - nurture the people to consider showing or some of the dog sports - perhaps it will be them or perhaps it will be their children who become the future of dogs.

c) Some breeders are offering breeding stock to people however adding ridiculous conditions - e.g. pay $1000 to $1500 for the dog but breeder retains the bitch in their name and has control over who you breed to etc. mind you the pet owner is responsible for all the cost of keeping the dog and has to get the breeders permission for any changes. How many potential future show/breed people would be put off by this form of Contract?

d) Again another thing that came out of the Monash Seminar - the temperament of the parents is important.

Be honest about your bitches - are they good enough in temperament to breed ( I dont give a flying fig if they are the best in show if the temperament is dicey ). If your bitch has a good temperament then do her the justice of finding the dog with an equally good temperament. Who of you genuinely spends any time to see what the temperament of the dog is. Dont take the word of the owner - view him yourself - how do we know what the Imported Sperm is from a dog who is good enough. There are plenty of people bringing good dogs here from OS - support these breeders and view those dogs and local bred first before opting for imported sperm.

4. Perhaps we need a Code of Practice for raising puppies even for members of Breed Association.

Look up some of the pure dog breeders and they might have 2, 3 or even 4 litters over a couple of months. In all honesty how can breeders really say they are meeting the social needs of this many pups as well as their adult dogs. They might have 20 pups in some months - after feeding and cleaning not just the pups but the dozen or so adult dogs they are running at home - how much time do they really have to spend on these pups or on finding the right homes for them - Let alone the fact that many are working full time jobs and often away showing on weekends. Are these breeders any better than the puppy farmers or the BYB....?

I could go on and on - these are just a few thought - but you probably wouldnt be bothered reading.......

Just remember the FUTURE OF BREEDING is what we need to consider. Not our own egos.

What a great post, if only more thought along these lines.

[Christina]

One of the biggest problems in having rules, laws, guidelines etc is that peoples opinions vary so much on what is actually acceptable & right.

If the breeders/owners on this forum can't agree, & going by some posts they cannot. eg from past few posts

A breeder cannot do all they should do with multiple litters over a few months.

Well depends on your breed. Mine may have only 1 to 3 puppies, so multiple litters, especially with singletons is better for the pups. Not quite the same as multiple litters of 8 & 10 puppies.

Dogs still need an hour or 2 walking outside despite having large properties to run around.

Depends on breed again. Mine get round the block. They would pass out on a 2 hour hike, especially in the heat, after tearing around after each other here all day.

People can't cope with more than 4 dogs.

Absolutely ridiculous, of course some can very well &

Others are hopeless with just one.

Selling on limited register restricts the breed.

No it doesn't. It means that people will just breed without the breeders consent & no papers.

Re the puppy farms anyone with half a brain & any compassion can see what is wrong with the places & it should be stopped. If the dogs are living in rough conditions, fed crap & the minimum, caged, dirty, over bred & without vet treatment when needed etc

We have laws & rules in place already that cover animal cruelty & neglect.

Why do we need more laws, more rules, more regulations ?

The ones we have are obviously not being enforced so what is the point of more ?

If the councils stopped allowing these mass farms, the RSPCA removed & prosecuted & all but breeding animals owned by registered breeders were desexed it would help.

But having a whole new set of another lot of laws will just penalise ethical breeders & the crap will just continue on.

The laws will not be well thought out, flexible enough for various circumstances & not enforceable.

The puppy farms will continue.

Other ethical breeders will give up. It will all get too complex, difficult & too much bother with all this stupidity.

[centitout]

2 of my girls just give me the "youve GOT to be kidding" look if there walk is uphill,or any longer than 20 mins-they are more comfortable laying on the lounge ,or the furniture on the back verhanda.

Not all dogs like a 1-2 hr walk(or 10 kms at a brisk pace).These 2 dont even sniff around when we walk.

2 of the others,though,are quite happy to do a 5-6 walk,and sniff every blade of grass-ALL dogs are different,and blanket laws saying all dogs must be walked for x time per day are ridiculous.I know MY dogs,i know what motivates them,what stimulates them,and what they need as individual dogs.

As far as limited register restricting the breed-i have taken a chance with a few of mine on main because they wanted to show-none are in the ring ,one was shown once i think several years ago,and every enquiry i seemed to get for a while just wanted to byb,crossbreed.So i pay to desex all of mine at 8 mths,this is working well at the moment.

There are 4 breeders/owners i am helping,so its not like i want to keep dogs all in my greedy clutches,bu t with the current trend of breeding to make money back,go on a holiday,re carpet the house etc ,is it any wonder breeders dont want to sell to joe blow a good dog on main?

I dont blame most breeders at all-the general public has made breeders take the measures they do today,although some do go a bit over the top.Thats easy,if you dont like it-buy from another one!

As far as that "seminar" goes regarding speakers whinging that breeders wont sell them top quality main registered dogs to cross breed to improve their stock,you have to be kidding right???? I would rather put to sleep all of mine before i would sell to deliberate crossbreeding puppyfarmers.They are not going to continue your lines and be a useful way of increasing the gene pool as the progeny will be CROSSBRED.

[cookierhys]

I completely agree with everything that Animal Liberation lady said, there are enough beautiful dogs being put down each week at shelters because they can't be rehomed, we dnt need puppy farmers producing even more that will ultimately be put down before they should be. Why can't they see that wat they're doing is wrong. and as for the guy saying that the animals he sells are microchipped so he'll knoew if any go to shelters, they are microchipped in the owners name, not the pet shop, and wat if they arent reclaimed or rehoused, then they die because they were bred and not bought because there were probably 10 of that breed of puppy sold at the same time, and not all puppies from one litter get adopted.

It just makes me so mad, not to mention in the end, some of the poor dogs from the puppy farm they saved, had to get put down. The poor things dont desrve that after everything they've been through, i mean, i get why they would have to be put down, on temperament or health issues, but they shouldn't hav been in that kind of situation in the first place. It's so unfair on all the animals.

[justin19801]

animal liberation is about ending pet ownership and enforced veganism, nothing more, nothing less. The red herring is the dogs put down. If the dogs the R$PCA killed had a voice, I'm sure they would have preferred to remain where they were. Regulation and enforcement is the key to solving puppy farms.