Puppy Mills On The 7.30 Report

[Steve]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Me too. But if we cant speak about what we each feel are solutions and think through possible adverse consequences we wont get it right.

This forum is a great place for sorting through the issues and seeing things from the wider or different perspective but that means we each have to begin by assuming we all have the same goal - to stop dogs suffering.

[Crisovar]

If there is an undersupply of something - it is hard to get. I can pick up the paper any day of the week, phone a number and come home with a puppy. Or go to a pet shop and buy one. Or call a breeder. That is an undersupply of puppies? God help us.

Can you, any day of the week, come home with a healthy, sound puppy from a registered, responsible breeder who health tests and offers a lifetime backup??

If you can you live in a different world than I do.

[Crisovar]

Dogs are surrendered to pounds every day because they are not suitable for the home they were purchased for, not because there are too many dogs.

The pages and pages of dogs available for sale that you mention are not all suuitable for the people who take them home.

"I wanted a poodle, couldn't get one so I bought this moodle it is not what I expected"

"I wanted a calm medium sized dog this is far too active and demanding"

"Far too rough for the kids"

" Can't look after the coat"

There is a shortage of well bred healthy sound pups from responsible breeders who health test and know their stuff and provide quality aftercare, most of their buyers end up with a pup that suits.

[Jed]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Most of it, actually.

I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised.

Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted?

[Chocolatelover]

If there is an undersupply of something - it is hard to get. I can pick up the paper any day of the week, phone a number and come home with a puppy. Or go to a pet shop and buy one. Or call a breeder. That is an undersupply of puppies? God help us.

Can you, any day of the week, come home with a healthy, sound puppy from a registered, responsible breeder who health tests and offers a lifetime backup??

If you can you live in a different world than I do.

Except I never said there was an oversupply of purebreed dogs. So if you read my comment again I never claimed to get a healthy pup with a lifetime back up was easy. I said if I wanted a puppy. I have bought four puppies in my lifetime from registered breeders - one of these breeders cared where it was going. Apparently the type of breeders you mention are not so easy to come by and very hard for the general public to find.

[Chocolatelover]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Most of it, actually.

I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised.

Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted?

Thanks for your concern but I have seen plenty of places with more than two dogs. You just made that assumption and I couldn't be bothered to correct you.

I have many ideas for what I think should happen - but I will undoubtedly get flamed for any comments I make and will be accused of being brainwashed by PETA. You have a vested interest as a breeder - you don't want anything to get in the way of that.

I have no hidden agenda - yes I love having pets as part of my family but if left with the options of "my right to own an animal" or to "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" I would pick the later every time. And I make no apologies for that.

[Chocolatelover]

Dogs are surrendered to pounds every day because they are not suitable for the home they were purchased for, not because there are too many dogs.

The pages and pages of dogs available for sale that you mention are not all suuitable for the people who take them home.

"I wanted a poodle, couldn't get one so I bought this moodle it is not what I expected"

"I wanted a calm medium sized dog this is far too active and demanding"

"Far too rough for the kids"

" Can't look after the coat"

There is a shortage of well bred healthy sound pups from responsible breeders who health test and know their stuff and provide quality aftercare, most of their buyers end up with a pup that suits.

And you don't think there are any other factors involved? Like the fact that if a buyer is willing to do their homework about breeds, contact breeders, reads up on health issues and listen to advice that they may be just a tad more likely to take their dog to puppy school, socialise, exercise and train. The puppy will suit because they have put time and effort into it. It was probably not a spur of the moment decision so they were always less likely to abandon their dog, breeder support or not.

Compared with the person who rings up the ad in the trading post on impulse, gets the pup that day, leaves it outside to it's own devices, no exercise, no training, no socialisation. and then says "it is not what I expected".

Nothing is black and white and there is always more than one factor that influences things. Dogs do not meet expectations because people do not put in the time and effort the dog deserves. How can we say that dogs that were PTS because of "temperament" don't count because they are not "rehomable". In different hands the dogs temperament may have been fine. How would we know?? And what about health issues? There is a dog in a rescue thread that was PTS because it was riddled with tumours. If the owners had treated the first cancer then maybe it would not have had any further health issues. But it probably becomes a "PTS due to health" statistic. And that's why they do not convince me that we have an undersupply of dogs when they say that "rehomable dogs are not PTS". It is the crap owners that make the majority not rehomable in the first place.

[Crisovar]

Except I never said there was an oversupply of purebreed dogs. So if you read my comment again I never claimed to get a healthy pup with a lifetime back up was easy. I said if I wanted a puppy. I have bought four puppies in my lifetime from registered breeders - one of these breeders cared where it was going. Apparently the type of breeders you mention are not so easy to come by and very hard for the general public to find.

The sort of puppy you would come home with would have less chance of being suitable than one from a registered reputable breeder who has also done their homework.

Badly bred pups with unsound minds and bodies are dime a dozen, many of them end up in the pound.

Yep, the type of breeders I mentioned are not thick on the ground, neither are the pups they produce that are in great demand.

[justin19801]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Most of it, actually.

I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised.

Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted?

Thanks for your concern but I have seen plenty of places with more than two dogs. You just made that assumption and I couldn't be bothered to correct you.

I have many ideas for what I think should happen - but I will undoubtedly get flamed for any comments I make and will be accused of being brainwashed by PETA. You have a vested interest as a breeder - you don't want anything to get in the way of that.

I have no hidden agenda - yes I love having pets as part of my family but if left with the options of "my right to own an animal" or to "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" I would pick the later every time. And I make no apologies for that.

"end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" Straight out of the PETA manual on how to end pet ownership. They kill 95+% of dogs that come into their care to end their suffering. They even had a mobile killing squad ending dog's suffering. PETA, R$PCA, HSUS, Animal Liberation, they are all after one thing ending pet ownership, to end their suffering.

[Chocolatelover]

Except I never said there was an oversupply of purebreed dogs. So if you read my comment again I never claimed to get a healthy pup with a lifetime back up was easy. I said if I wanted a puppy. I have bought four puppies in my lifetime from registered breeders - one of these breeders cared where it was going. Apparently the type of breeders you mention are not so easy to come by and very hard for the general public to find.

The sort of puppy you would come home with would have less chance of being suitable than one from a registered reputable breeder who has also done their homework.

Badly bred pups with unsound minds and bodies are dime a dozen, many of them end up in the pound.

Yep, the type of breeders I mentioned are not thick on the ground, neither are the pups they produce that are in great demand.

That is not the issue that was being discussed. The issue was that if I want a pup I can have one with that day from any number of sources - paper, internet, petshop, posters at the dog park. That doesn't sound like under supply to me.

No where did I say that there was an oversupply of well-bred, pedigree puppies from ethical, honest breeders - I am talking about puppies in general. Isn't that what the show was about - puppy mills and mass breeding? Not ethical registered breeders.

You are implying that nature is the be all and end all. If you can point me to some research that shows that puppies from the same litter all turn out to be unsound of mind and body no matter what type of home they are raised in, I would love to read this. More likely they end up in the pound because they were purchased on a whim and the hard work wasn't put into raising them properly. Maybe a small minority of dogs are born "bad", but mostly they are products of the environment in which they are raised.

[Skruffy n Flea]

i hated watching ... i hated seeing the looks on those beautiful faces while i listened to the gump coming out of the mouths of idiots ... i hated seeing how some of them cowered...

steve austin's remarks shocked me ... pet resorts australia was where i anticipated boarding my two; time to research another...

*sadness*

Skruffy n Flea, I looked at Pet Resorts for my guys and I would not touch it.

The kennels are old and dark, the dogs are kenneled with dogs they don't know over night ;)

It needs to be bulldozed and started again.

By all means take a look and then you know but I was just so disapointed at the place.

Try Calabash, it is 5 minutes up the road. Mine are going there next week and lots of my customers send their dogs and cats there. (They have the best cat run, wish I could have it at home)

ty colliewood but srsly, given what steve said during his 5 minutes of fame i'm not going to give his website one more hit!

thanks very much too for the calabash ref ... i gave their site a looksee and yeah, they appear to actually be much better than what i'd heard [and believed ] about that other place! i look forward to hearing about your personal experience so please, come back and let me, and others know

[Chocolatelover]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Most of it, actually.

I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised.

Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted?

Thanks for your concern but I have seen plenty of places with more than two dogs. You just made that assumption and I couldn't be bothered to correct you.

I have many ideas for what I think should happen - but I will undoubtedly get flamed for any comments I make and will be accused of being brainwashed by PETA. You have a vested interest as a breeder - you don't want anything to get in the way of that.

I have no hidden agenda - yes I love having pets as part of my family but if left with the options of "my right to own an animal" or to "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" I would pick the later every time. And I make no apologies for that.

"end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" Straight out of the PETA manual on how to end pet ownership. They kill 95+% of dogs that come into their care to end their suffering. They even had a mobile killing squad ending dog's suffering. PETA, R$PCA, HSUS, Animal Liberation, they are all after one thing ending pet ownership, to end their suffering.

I am not advocating PTS or the end of pet ownership - I love my dogs too much and the fact that they don't leave when the front door is open would indicate to me they are happy being where they are. And I don't really know much about PETA other than they sound extreme. I think all breeders and pet owners should be made to take responsibility for their animals and meeting all of their needs. Don't know how to implement it but I'm sure improvements could be made in small steps. Why that is so bad, I have no idea. And if this scares you so much then maybe you have something to hide.

Just because we can't stop child abuse - does that mean we abolish the laws because they can't always be enforced? At least when someone is caught doing the wrong thing there are avenues in place for them to be punished accordingly.

I can't work out why people I would assume are dog lovers are not hell bent on improving the quality of all dogs lives, no matter what it takes.

[BJean]

Nothing is black and white and there is always more than one factor that influences things. Dogs do not meet expectations because people do not put in the time and effort the dog deserves. How can we say that dogs that were PTS because of "temperament" don't count because they are not "rehomable". In different hands the dogs temperament may have been fine. How would we know?? And what about health issues? There is a dog in a rescue thread that was PTS because it was riddled with tumours. If the owners had treated the first cancer then maybe it would not have had any further health issues. But it probably becomes a "PTS due to health" statistic. And that's why they do not convince me that we have an undersupply of dogs when they say that "rehomable dogs are not PTS". It is the crap owners that make the majority not rehomable in the first place.

Yeah so it aint oversupply.

Rehomeable dogs are pts, but that is due to pound/sheltyer operational issues

not oversupply.

Too tired to rewrite, there's the same dialogue going on in the rescue thread.

Edited April 2, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

[

I am not advocating PTS or the end of pet ownership - I love my dogs too much and the fact that they don't leave when the front door is open would indicate to me they are happy being where they are. And I don't really know much about PETA other than they sound extreme. I think all breeders and pet owners should be made to take responsibility for their animals and meeting all of their needs. Don't know how to implement it but I'm sure improvements could be made in small steps. Why that is so bad, I have no idea. And if this scares you so much then maybe you have something to hide.

Just because we can't stop child abuse - does that mean we abolish the laws because they can't always be enforced? At least when someone is caught doing the wrong thing there are avenues in place for them to be punished accordingly.

I can't work out why people I would assume are dog lovers are not hell bent on improving the quality of all dogs lives, no matter what it takes.

Not really, but that's a whole other thread. and yep you guessed it, im too tired to go into it. got pups to feed around the clock and not going to delve into dog psyche today.

[Steve]

Except I never said there was an oversupply of purebreed dogs. So if you read my comment again I never claimed to get a healthy pup with a lifetime back up was easy. I said if I wanted a puppy. I have bought four puppies in my lifetime from registered breeders - one of these breeders cared where it was going. Apparently the type of breeders you mention are not so easy to come by and very hard for the general public to find.

The sort of puppy you would come home with would have less chance of being suitable than one from a registered reputable breeder who has also done their homework.

Badly bred pups with unsound minds and bodies are dime a dozen, many of them end up in the pound.

Yep, the type of breeders I mentioned are not thick on the ground, neither are the pups they produce that are in great demand.

That is not the issue that was being discussed. The issue was that if I want a pup I can have one with that day from any number of sources - paper, internet, petshop, posters at the dog park. That doesn't sound like under supply to me.

No where did I say that there was an oversupply of well-bred, pedigree puppies from ethical, honest breeders - I am talking about puppies in general. Isn't that what the show was about - puppy mills and mass breeding? Not ethical registered breeders.

You are implying that nature is the be all and end all. If you can point me to some research that shows that puppies from the same litter all turn out to be unsound of mind and body no matter what type of home they are raised in, I would love to read this. More likely they end up in the pound because they were purchased on a whim and the hard work wasn't put into raising them properly. Maybe a small minority of dogs are born "bad", but mostly they are products of the environment in which they are raised.

Recently the MDBA attended a seminar in Melbourne - at Monash University on building better dogs and 100% of the professors McGreevy, Bennett and Goddard said that temperament is heritable and that breeders should select for temperament which is what breeders who know their stuff already know and there is miles and miles and miles of research to back that up.

The fact of the matter is that responsible dog ownership starts before you get the dog.

Some people at certain times of their lives can live with any dog but not all of us can do that.

Knowing your lifestyle and the expected management issues relating to the dog when it is an adult is the only way someone can be remotely sure its going to be a good experience living with the dog.

I know that I would be unhappy having to live with some breeds and that I would make them pretty miserable too so for me having a purebred dog which is bred for temperament and for which I can reasonably predict what I need to do to live wih it without neglecting it is a huge consideration.

If you have someone breeding the dog who understands this and is selecting for temperament and predictible management issues, who tries to choose homes which match that because of what they learn about the owner's lifestyle and who is still around and prepared to take the dog back if something goes wrong then you dont get dogs in pounds.

People who live with two dogs which are high maintenance,need grooming or lots of training and exercise cant get that someone else can live with 6 which have been chosen to suit a lifestyle different to their own.

I couldnt breed enough puppies of my breed to fill the orders I have for them.I dont take a waiting list because when I did I had over a hundred on it waiting for a puppy. I had a litter which went home just before christmas and every one of the 8 puppies excluding the one I kept went to people who have already got one of my puppies and who wait for up to 2 years for me to breed a litter to have a new puppy.

You may be able to buy a pup whenever you want one from anywhere but if you want a pup which is bred for its predictibility and which comes with a breeder safety net there is - across the board a shortage of them.

One puppy farmer breeds in one year 10 times what I will breed in a lifetime and no amount of desexing pets, stopping pet shop sales etc is going to stop that.People who buy puppies because they think puppies are all the same and training and puppy school,treating them like humans etc is whats needed to live with them happily ever after is part of the problem because its simply not true - no amount of training or management will make a dog easy to live with if it requires management which you cant give.Try living with a high drive kelpie if your lifestyle screams pug or vice versa.

[Steve]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Most of it, actually.

I didn't actually say "your limited life experiences blinded you" - I said I thought you needed to see places with more than 2 dogs before you criticised.

Now, what are the laws you would like to see enacted?

Thanks for your concern but I have seen plenty of places with more than two dogs. You just made that assumption and I couldn't be bothered to correct you.

I have many ideas for what I think should happen - but I will undoubtedly get flamed for any comments I make and will be accused of being brainwashed by PETA. You have a vested interest as a breeder - you don't want anything to get in the way of that.

I have no hidden agenda - yes I love having pets as part of my family but if left with the options of "my right to own an animal" or to "end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" I would pick the later every time. And I make no apologies for that.

"end the suffering and misery and senseless killing" Straight out of the PETA manual on how to end pet ownership. They kill 95+% of dogs that come into their care to end their suffering. They even had a mobile killing squad ending dog's suffering. PETA, R$PCA, HSUS, Animal Liberation, they are all after one thing ending pet ownership, to end their suffering.

I am not advocating PTS or the end of pet ownership - I love my dogs too much and the fact that they don't leave when the front door is open would indicate to me they are happy being where they are. And I don't really know much about PETA other than they sound extreme. I think all breeders and pet owners should be made to take responsibility for their animals and meeting all of their needs. Don't know how to implement it but I'm sure improvements could be made in small steps. Why that is so bad, I have no idea. And if this scares you so much then maybe you have something to hide.

Just because we can't stop child abuse - does that mean we abolish the laws because they can't always be enforced? At least when someone is caught doing the wrong thing there are avenues in place for them to be punished accordingly.

I can't work out why people I would assume are dog lovers are not hell bent on improving the quality of all dogs lives, no matter what it takes.

I believe my dogs are happy where they are too but if I leave the door open there is always a chance they will take a hike for a day or two because they are beagles and no matter how much training or how happy they are they are still likely to put their noses down and check out whats on the other side of the door.Ive allowed that behaviour to be acceptable rather than try and control it. I manage my whole life around that fact.

I have a $55,000 fence around 2 and a half acres of my property which has a concrete footing under every square inch of it and two entrance gates which act like an air lock to ensure they are happy and so is my family. I dont walk them around the block and I dont take them to puppy training school but Ive lived with them for almost 40 years and couldnt imagine living without them or why anyone would ever consider having any other breed.I love to watch them running and playing in their pack and I waste time enjoying seeing them so happy just being able to do what the breed is meant to do without a lead around their necks.They come for walks around the other 30 acres and get to scent rabbits and roos and search for treasures whcih werent there last time they had the wind in their ears. They suit me and living with them the way I do having half a dozen or so is better for them and me than having two.

[huski]

Totally agree with Steve - my beagle is pretty happy and she would leave if the door was open if she got a whiff of something interesting out there! That's not reflective of her happiness or the enjoyment she gets from living in my house, it's the instinct she was born with.

[WoofnHoof]

Seriously doubt you have read ALL the research there is out there Jed. That's a big call.

I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.

I'm sure your limited life experiences also blind you to other sides of the debate, as you say mine does.

The day no dog is forced to suffer a life of misery I will be happy - no matter what it takes.

Me too. But if we cant speak about what we each feel are solutions and think through possible adverse consequences we wont get it right.

This forum is a great place for sorting through the issues and seeing things from the wider or different perspective but that means we each have to begin by assuming we all have the same goal - to stop dogs suffering.

I believe there is a time for talk and a time for action and the time for action is now while the negative attention is on puppy farms there is a clear opportunity for the promotion of ethical breeding practices.

I also believe that what one person feels is 'getting it right' smells very much like 'trying to please everybody', while the former might be possible, the latter is most definetly impossible and neither matters in the end if the opportunity to put things into action has passed.

At this present time it matters not which laws people are in favour of, what matters right now IMO is getting the message out about ethical dog breeding, no point hammering out the 'perfect plan' if no one's listening anymore. The heat on puppy farms is on, they are already responding and presenting themselves in a 'cleaner' light, it's time to show people what ethical breeding is really about.

[Chocolatelover]

[

I am not advocating PTS or the end of pet ownership - I love my dogs too much and the fact that they don't leave when the front door is open would indicate to me they are happy being where they are. And I don't really know much about PETA other than they sound extreme. I think all breeders and pet owners should be made to take responsibility for their animals and meeting all of their needs. Don't know how to implement it but I'm sure improvements could be made in small steps. Why that is so bad, I have no idea. And if this scares you so much then maybe you have something to hide.

Just because we can't stop child abuse - does that mean we abolish the laws because they can't always be enforced? At least when someone is caught doing the wrong thing there are avenues in place for them to be punished accordingly.

I can't work out why people I would assume are dog lovers are not hell bent on improving the quality of all dogs lives, no matter what it takes.

Not really, but that's a whole other thread. and yep you guessed it, im too tired to go into it. got pups to feed around the clock and not going to delve into dog psyche today.

That's OK. I prefer to spend time with my dogs to work out what makes them tick and I think I know them better than you do. I could read all the literature out there and would get different opinions - and these opinions will change over time, as undoubtedly happens with science. We can't even work out what goes on in the head of our own species, so how the hell can we be an expert on what goes on in a dogs head.

Huski - training is great. But going for a walk and sniffing new smells and seeing new things is also mental stimulation. Why can't a dog have both? We know that humans should exercise for overall health and well being so why not a dog? And I am not talking about a ten minute walk around the block but a decent one to two hour walk on top of playtime in the back yard. Consistent, adequate exercise and training solves many behavioural problems in dogs (from my limited experience of course). So why aren't owners required to provide both of these to the dog?

Steve - identical twins have the same genetic material. But there are studies showing that when they are raised in different environments that although they have some similar traits, that nurture does have an impact on their personality. It is the great 'nature vs nurture' debate and I think to condemn a dog from birth is unfair. A dog with a perfect genetic backgound can still be PTS as a result of temperament issues if raised in the wrong environment. Therefore, the law needs to focus on both breeding practices and resposible pet ownership.

I am against puppy mills and irresponsible BYBers, I am not against ethical registered breeders. I would like to see the former come to an end and the later flourish (with the emphasis on ethical). But until that happens, the quality of all dogs lives matters to me - not just purebreds.

[huski]

Huski - training is great. But going for a walk and sniffing new smells and seeing new things is also mental stimulation. Why can't a dog have both? We know that humans should exercise for overall health and well being so why not a dog? And I am not talking about a ten minute walk around the block but a decent one to two hour walk on top of playtime in the back yard. Consistent, adequate exercise and training solves many behavioural problems in dogs (from my limited experience of course). So why aren't owners required to provide both of these to the dog?

I'm not saying a dog can't have both, I still walk my dog. But I think she gets a lot more out a training session. I was just using it as an example of ways that we can give our dogs heaps of mental/physical stimulation without leaving the house. Does it make me a bad owner if I train with my dog every day but don't walk her every day? If the compulsory dog walking laws came in then according to the law the answer would be yes.

And what if the owner is not physically capable of walking their dog for an hour or two every day? What if the dog is not physically capable of walking every day?