Labrador Hip Scores

[Alfie02]

Hi everyone,

I am looking at a lab breeder who's stud dog has hip score of 8/8 and an elbow score of 0/0. The bitch that they are planning to bred this dog with has a hip score 0/0 and elbows 0/0. I was wondering since they are breeding a dog with a higher hip score with a bitch with a low hip score would the puppies be expected to have good hips? (assuming the grandparents etc had good hip scores)? I am new at this hip and elbow score talk so sorry if this question seems silly

Thanks

[Stolzseinrotts]

Hmm this is the question?????????? You can put two 0.0 parents togther and get high hips..........you can get low hips.........or you can get a combination of anything.......you can put together two higher scoring hips and get low hips.........or you can get high hips ........or a combination of anything. Does the sire have prior history on the status of what his pups are scoring hip wise?? The other thing I like to look at is the siblings of said parents and the siblings of the grandparents and their scores, it is called a vertical pedigree and it gives you a better picture of possible hip status within the family.

I am not sure what the Labrador stats are, no doubt somebody can post further information.

[mrs tornsocks]

8/8 does seem very high, check out the lab forum under breed sub forums

or the breeders forum of course

[sandgrubber]

I would check around for information on the boy's sire and dam and any siblings to find out whether that's a 'good' 8:8 or a 'bad' 8:8. I was confronted with a similar choice years back and opted to do an AI with chilled semen instead of use the local boy with less-than-excellent hip scores.

I think the bottom line is 8:8 to 0:0 could produce lots of outcomes, and on the whole you'd expect scores to come down from 8:8 . .. but they could go worse. I was told that the Rotti people allow or disallow matings based on the total score of the sire and dam. The story was that they were finding that focus on hip scores was resulting in generally smaller, lighter bodied dogs. The combined score approach was used to allow people to bring really sturdy dogs -- who may tend to have worse scores -- back into the breeding pool. Maybe a Rotti person can shed more light here, as this was an over-the-fence conversation and I may be repeating something that's incorrect. My memory was that people view the combined score approach satisfactory.

Btw, some people seem to end out with high scores. I think maybe they come from the pup spending too much time on concrete or not getting the right sort of exercise . . . who knows. If there's something like that going on 8:8 may be a good score.

[sandgrubber]

I would check around for information on the boy's sire and dam and any siblings to find out whether that's a 'good' 8:8 or a 'bad' 8:8. I was confronted with a similar choice years back and opted to do an AI with chilled semen instead of use the local boy with less-than-excellent hip scores.

I think the bottom line is 8:8 to 0:0 could produce lots of outcomes, and on the whole you'd expect scores to come down from 8:8 . .. but they could go worse. I was told that the Rotti people allow or disallow matings based on the total score of the sire and dam. The story was that they were finding that focus on hip scores was resulting in generally smaller, lighter bodied dogs. The combined score approach was used to allow people to bring really sturdy dogs -- who may tend to have worse scores -- back into the breeding pool. Maybe a Rotti person can shed more light here, as this was an over-the-fence conversation and I may be repeating something that's incorrect. My memory was that people view the combined score approach satisfactory.

Btw, some people seem to end out with high scores. I think maybe they come from the pup spending too much time on concrete or not getting the right sort of exercise . . . who knows. If there's something like that going on 8:8 may be a good score.

[macka]

Hi Alfie

The way I see it is... there are 55 Labrador puppy listings on DOL from around Australia at the moment, if you don't have to take a pup from a sire with high hip scores, why would you?

Stolzseinrotts is right, there is a risk even when both parents have low scores, which is why I would recommend researching the pedigree of both the Dam and Sire going back several generations.

Good luck

[BJean]

Hi everyone,

I am looking at a lab breeder who's stud dog has hip score of 8/8 and an elbow score of 0/0. The bitch that they are planning to bred this dog with has a hip score 0/0 and elbows 0/0. I was wondering since they are breeding a dog with a higher hip score with a bitch with a low hip score would the puppies be expected to have good hips? (assuming the grandparents etc had good hip scores)? I am new at this hip and elbow score talk so sorry if this question seems silly

Thanks

I wouldn't include or discount a dog/bitch for breeding, based on hips alone -

I dont think 8/8 with 0/0 is that high, or a cause for concern.

A hip score tells you what the hips looks like at that point in time - no more.

The Lab breed average is 12.

8/8 as a judgement of the hips appearance is preferable to 1/5 or 2/4 or 6/1 etc

If the sire with 8/8 is the best overall match for the 0/0 bitch

then there is nothing wrong with the breeding.

imo too much emphasis is placed on hip scores to the detriment of the total dog.

I see dogs/bitches incuded for breeding just becasue they score 0/0

imo that is no different to including a dog for breeding just because it has a good shoulder or nice coat when the rest of the dog is sub-standard.

Hips are only one small part of the whole

Yes there are 55 other Lab puppy listings on DOl and yes the sires may have lower (but not necessarily better) hip scores

than the sire of your litter, but it doesn't make them better Labs. Doesn't give them better temperament, better overall structure, better breed type.

nb: If you are new to hip/elbow scores why dont you ask the breeder what the hip scores mean and why they chose this particular combination? I'd also ask them about the other aspects of the dog too.

Edited March 25, 2010 by lilli

[macka]

Yes there are 55 other Lab puppy listings on DOl and yes the sires may have lower (but not necessarily better) hip scores

than the sire of your litter, but it doesn't make them better Labs. Doesn't give them better temperament, better overall structure, better breed type.

nb: If you are new to hip/elbow scores why dont you ask the breeder what the hip scores mean and why they chose this particular combination? I'd also ask them about the other aspects of the dog too.

;)

Lilli I wasn't saying hip scores are the be all and end all - just that there are so many Labradors being bred as they are such a popular breed, if the OP looks around and is prepared to wait for a pup from the right breeder, I am very confident he will be able to find nice dogs with good temperament, structure, type AND better hip scores, so why settle for less?

OP also don't forget to ask if the parents have been cleared for PRA - that should be tested for in labs as well.

[BJean]

Lilli I wasn't saying hip scores are the be all and end all - just that there are so many Labradors being bred as they are such a popular breed, if the OP looks around and is prepared to wait for a pup from the right breeder, I am very confident he will be able to find nice dogs with good temperament, structure, type AND better hip scores, so why settle for less?

If two dogs are the perfect compliment, how is another combination better, based on hip scores?

Is another stud dog better if it has a lower hip score?

If a dog is outstanding representation of its breed and has a hip score of 8/8 can we ask a puppy buyer to then assess different sire/dam combinations with the same eye and knowledge as a breeder, to see if the other potential litters are better or worse?

0/0 8/8 passes any hip health requirement. imo that's all a puppy buyer needs to know.

You cannot say that a puppy from 0/0 8/8 breeding will have more/less propensity to have HD

than a puppy from a 0/0 - 1/1 0/0 3/0 breeding etc

;)

[macka]

If two dogs are the perfect compliment, how is another combination better, based on hip scores?

Is another stud dog better if it has a lower hip score?

If a dog is outstanding representation of its breed and has a hip score of 8/8 can we ask a puppy buyer to then assess different sire/dam combinations with the same eye and knowledge as a breeder, to see if the other potential litters are better or worse?

Fair enough. I'm coming from a puppy buyer perspective as I am not a breeder and don't know much about breeding/sire & dam combinations. As a layman puppy buyer of course you can't know what sire & dam combinations are ideal, you just have to trust your breeder's knowledge and expertise in that area.

0/0 8/8 passes any hip health requirement. imo that's all a puppy buyer needs to know.

You cannot say that a puppy from 0/0 8/8 breeding will have more/less propensity to have HD

than a puppy from a 0/0 - 1/1 0/0 3/0 breeding etc

But can't you infer when looking at a 5-generation pedigree of both sire and dam made up entirely of low scores that offspring have a good chance of low scores? Of course nothing is ever certain, but that's all you have to go on.

[Alfie02]

Thanks heaps for all the replies guys, very helpful. I will contact the breeder and ask about the puppies that this stud dog has produced and look into the dogs grabdparents etc. Im sure the breeder will be happy to discuss all this with me and if not i will go else where. Very helpful thanks

[MissMonaro]

I agree with Lilli.

Hip Dysplasia is NOT entirely genetic - research points to a high degree of environmental factors that do contribute.

Elbow dysplasia on the other hand has a much higher genetic factor.

I would be more concerned in scores on the elbows personally - and beleive me there are plenty of breeders breeding with dogs with bad elbow scores.

Example for you - Breeding bitch - her father, who she was linebred too had a hip score of 8/7 (so he was a few times in her pedigree). Her hip score was 1:2. She was mated to a dog of 0:0 hip score and one pup came back with a score of 11:9 and one a hip score of 3:3. Pup with higher score was 40 kg at 10 months of age - so bare that in mind.

Next litter.....mated to a dog with a 2:4 hip score. Pup from that litter scored a 3:3 hip score.

Bitch mated again to same dog........this time pup from litter scored a 2:2 hip score.

Labradors are a very popular breed and there are breeders out there that dont really understand the issues etc......so be careful.

and even with the best intentions, we dont have a crystal ball and sometimes things happen.

Edited March 26, 2010 by MissMonaro