Subaortic Stenosis In Rottweilers

[RottPerth]

I would like the thoughts/opinions of breeders out there with regard to a problem I am having. My 11 month old Rottweiler was diagnosed with subaortic stenosis at 12 weeks of age. She has had two heart ultrasounds and my breeder has been advised and also had a second opinion from her own vet. I am concerned about the future of the breed in Australia because she is breeding the same two parents together again this year. I have asked her to consider that there is a possibility of this being hereditary but she is not interested in listening.

I would like to know if there is a requirement for pedigrees with major health issues to be reported/documented somewhere for the benefit of future purchaser's of future litters and to advise those who have already purchased from the same breeding. My girl has no restrictions on her so if the wrong type of person had bought her they could be breeding her with papers. Or a breeder might buy one from the next litter without knowing that this condition is running in the bloodline.

I don't know what to do and it is really concerning to me because I would like to continue to have Rottweilers as pets and I don't want to see this become a common problem with Rottweilers in Australia.

Would other breeders ignore this and keep breeding away like there's no issue?

[Stolzseinrotts]

Would other breeders ignore this and keep breeding away like there's no issue?

This would concern me greatly and to answer your question, no I wouldn't continue on like there is no issue. SAS is an extremely serious health issue for any breeder and one IMO that should be of a priority to make sure it doesn't happen again. I shake my head that a "breeder" would continue to go on and repeat a breeding knowing it has produced a pup that has a diagnosed SAS condition. I would be testing all pups in that litter to be finding out answers. But saying that, I do take health issues extremely seriously. I do not think that ignorance is an excuse, and in this case it seems education is not being considered either. Maybe my ethics and morals are to high?? I really don't think so, the ONLY reason to breed is to improve, breeding knowing that SAS has been produced is not breeding to the betterment of the breed, it is to the detriment, but hey that is my opinion.

[RottPerth]

Would other breeders ignore this and keep breeding away like there's no issue?

This would concern me greatly and to answer your question, no I wouldn't continue on like there is no issue. SAS is an extremely serious health issue for any breeder and one IMO that should be of a priority to make sure it doesn't happen again. I shake my head that a "breeder" would continue to go on and repeat a breeding knowing it has produced a pup that has a diagnosed SAS condition. I would be testing all pups in that litter to be finding out answers. But saying that, I do take health issues extremely seriously. I do not think that ignorance is an excuse, and in this case it seems education is not being considered either. Maybe my ethics and morals are to high?? I really don't think so, the ONLY reason to breed is to improve, breeding knowing that SAS has been produced is not breeding to the betterment of the breed, it is to the detriment, but hey that is my opinion.

Thanks for your reply, is there any way for breeders to know that they may be purchasing a breeding pup which may come from parents that have produced this? This is my main concern.

[Stolzseinrotts]

Thanks for your reply, is there any way for breeders to know that they may be purchasing a breeding pup which may come from parents that have produced this? This is my main concern.

No there is no open health registry in this country for Rottweilers. We (NRCA) only record HD, ED Eye and Mouth. Heart checks is not compulsory at this stage, I really don't know if they ever will be here. I personally think they should be and certification should be done at least a basic like the OFA (Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals) offers.

[RottPerth]

Thanks for your reply, is there any way for breeders to know that they may be purchasing a breeding pup which may come from parents that have produced this? This is my main concern.

No there is no open health registry in this country for Rottweilers. We (NRCA) only record HD, ED Eye and Mouth. Heart checks is not compulsory at this stage, I really don't know if they ever will be here. I personally think they should be and certification should be done at least a basic like the OFA (Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals) offers.

I think there needs to be some sort of registry to report any health issues so breeders can at least look at a blood line and see if there's any common issues. It seems too easy for some breeders to produce puppies for money and not care about the future of the breed. This is really sad for Rotties I love my girl so much, she is the best dog I've ever had, I would hate for this to become a common problem because it's heartbreaking

[Starkehre]

Rott Perth, I am very very sorry to hear about your young girl.

This is very disturbing information regarding this breeders' ethics, and I am sure all ethical breeders and Rottweiler lover/owners alike will be appalled by your reports.

I have no experience with SAS, so cannot comment on immediate health issues.

I do hope your lovely young girl is with you in good health for as long as possible and that your feelings towards staying in the breed can be mended over time. I absolutely understand your anguish and concerns regarding this.

I am in agreement with everything Stolz has said.

[Allerzeit]

This would concern me greatly and to answer your question, no I wouldn't continue on like there is no issue. SAS is an extremely serious health issue for any breeder and one IMO that should be of a priority to make sure it doesn't happen again. I shake my head that a "breeder" would continue to go on and repeat a breeding knowing it has produced a pup that has a diagnosed SAS condition. I would be testing all pups in that litter to be finding out answers. But saying that, I do take health issues extremely seriously. I do not think that ignorance is an excuse, and in this case it seems education is not being considered either. Maybe my ethics and morals are to high?? I really don't think so, the ONLY reason to breed is to improve, breeding knowing that SAS has been produced is not breeding to the betterment of the breed, it is to the detriment, but hey that is my opinion.

Great response that echoes my thoughts very closely.

I would never consider an incidence of SAS in a litter that I bred to be something that I would just overlook. I am shocked and disgusted by any breeder who produces a litter with an appearance of SAS and then just writes it off as nothing to worry about and repeats the mating.

Thanks for your reply, is there any way for breeders to know that they may be purchasing a breeding pup which may come from parents that have produced this? This is my main concern.

By researching. Any responsible and ethical breeder will research their proposed breeding to death before they actually do the breeding. Most breeders rabidly collect pedigrees and research those pedigrees for their general breed knowledge and future breeding plans. We keep our ears to the ground, we hear about others experiences - such as your own - and that all goes into our research pool.

[RottPerth]

Are breeders able to find out the pedigree of a registered dog just by the dogs registered name? So if I post my girl's registered name that will help other breeders who read this to make informed decisions? Am I allowed to do that?

[TrinaJ]

As per the others, never in a million years would I consider mating those 2 dogs again and I would also be screening both Sire and Dam to see if they are clear and desexing the one that wasn't clear. Unfortunately the tests dont detect 'silent affected' dogs, however they still have the SAS gene. This is where it becomes complicated as SAS can be thought to be caused by the dominent gene which can appear as a visible health issue in some dogs and and an invisible threat in others!!

We have been relatively lucky here in Australia as this condition is not as prevalient as in the US but it is also not a test the NRC(A) requires breeders to do here in Australia (unfortunately) however in the US it is done to obtain OFA cardiac certification. Here all we are required to do is Hip, elbow, eye and mouth certs as Stolz said.

In my honest opinion to do a repeat mating is just absolute madness and very unethical.

SAS becomes more severe as the dog matures and can lead to sudden death. I hope your puppy will be okay I would be interested to hear who the breeder is (for my own knowledge) if you wouldn't mind sending me a private message as this is just disgusting!

Edited March 26, 2010 by TrinaJ

[RottPerth]

As per the others, never in a million years would I consider mating those 2 dogs again and I would also be screening both Sire and Dam to see if they are clear and desexing the one that wasn't clear. Unfortunately the tests dont detect 'silent affected' dogs, however they still have the SAS gene. This is where it becomes complicated as SAS can be thought to be caused by the dominent gene which can appear as a visible health issue in some dogs and and an invisible threat in others!!

We have been relatively lucky here in Australia as this condition is not as prevalient as in the US but it is also not a test the NRC(A) requires breeders to do here in Australia (unfortunately) however in the US it is done to obtain OFA cardiac certification. Here all we are required to do is Hip, elbow, eye and mouth certs as Stolz said.

In my honest opinion to do a repeat mating is just absolute madness and very unethical.

SAS becomes more severe as the dog matures and can lead to sudden death. I hope your puppy will be okay I would be interested to hear who the breeder is (for my own knowledge) if you wouldn't mind sending me a private message as this is just disgusting!

I can only hope that my breeder reads this post and maybe rethinks her next breeding based on other breeder's posts.

Molly went from Moderate to Severe within 4 months so isn't expected to live past 3, I think given the severity at such a young age she will be lucky to get another 12 months. Even my vet said to me at the last visit that there's no point in having her desexed (which is a very big call for a vet in my experience)

[Bilbo Baggins]

RottPerth I am very sorry you are in this situation. It will be devastating to lose your much loved pet at a young age.

[RottPerth]

RottPerth I am very sorry you are in this situation. It will be devastating to lose your much loved pet at a young age.

Thanks Bilbo Baggins

[Jed]

This is quoted from http://www.vkwrottweilers.com/rottweiler-heart.htm

vkm rottweiler site.

None of us fanciers (with the possible exception of the veterinarians among us) is equipped to "track down and root out" a complicated and insidious disease that has the entire canine cardiology community baffled. There is widespread disagreement within that veterinary community as to which dogs should be bred and which shouldn’t. There are wide variations in equipment. The mode of inheritance is presently unknown. We can’t even effectively screen the existing population to find the sub-clinical cases when they’re still alive and walking around. Until there is some consensus among veterinarians and geneticists as to the best way to approach this problem, we must continue to act conservatively and responsibly

The mode of inheritance is currently unknown, and dogs may be bred BEFORE there is any indication of a heart problem.

That tells me it would be quite possible to unknowingly breed a rottweiler pup with SAS and unknowingly sell it to someone.

It appears that some dogs are sub-clinical, and there is absolutely no way of ascertaining that they will throw pups with SAS.

So, I don't think the breeder can be blamed for this pup having a problem.

To breed the parents to each other again is not something I would do, and I don't believe it is best practise.

IMHO, the breeder should take back the pup, refund your money, and allow you to purchase elsewhere, if you wish.

However, it seems to me, that like MVD in Cavaliers, there is basically no way of knowing when you buy a pup, that it will develop SAS.

[RottPerth]

This is quoted from http://www.vkwrottweilers.com/rottweiler-heart.htm

vkm rottweiler site.

None of us fanciers (with the possible exception of the veterinarians among us) is equipped to "track down and root out" a complicated and insidious disease that has the entire canine cardiology community baffled. There is widespread disagreement within that veterinary community as to which dogs should be bred and which shouldn’t. There are wide variations in equipment. The mode of inheritance is presently unknown. We can’t even effectively screen the existing population to find the sub-clinical cases when they’re still alive and walking around. Until there is some consensus among veterinarians and geneticists as to the best way to approach this problem, we must continue to act conservatively and responsibly

The mode of inheritance is currently unknown, and dogs may be bred BEFORE there is any indication of a heart problem.

That tells me it would be quite possible to unknowingly breed a rottweiler pup with SAS and unknowingly sell it to someone.

It appears that some dogs are sub-clinical, and there is absolutely no way of ascertaining that they will throw pups with SAS.

So, I don't think the breeder can be blamed for this pup having a problem.

To breed the parents to each other again is not something I would do, and I don't believe it is best practise.

IMHO, the breeder should take back the pup, refund your money, and allow you to purchase elsewhere, if you wish.

However, it seems to me, that like MVD in Cavaliers, there is basically no way of knowing when you buy a pup, that it will develop SAS.

The breeder offered to "rehome" Molly for me (whatever that means). She is my dog and I love her, it's not her fault that she was born with this. It is also not necessarily the breeder's fault if she didn't know that she might produce a pup with this. It is, however, her fault if she produces another pup from the next litter from the same breeding parents. My intention here wasn't to throw blame at breeders, it was simply to find out if there was a way that breeders can be informed about health issues in bloodlines, any breeder who really cares about the future of their breed would be happy to give/receive this information. I also wanted the opinion of other "ethical" breeders about the responses I have received from this breeder because this is my first dog from a registered breeder so I have no prior experience to go on. If I wanted to breeder bash I could do much worse things than post a thread on a breeder forum. If you were in my situation you would want some answers too.

[centitout]

If it were me,i wouldve refunded your money,but allowing you to keep the affected pup if you wish,or return it,bu tit wouldnt have been rehomed to someone else,it would have stayed with me.

If it is something vets cant agree on the mode of inheritance,and it occurs as an isolated incident,how can breeders screen for it if a lot of cases are sub-clinical?

I wouldnt repeat that breeding,but i would want to know which dog was affected before removing them from the gene pool and siblings as well.If it was KNOWN which parent was affected ,and then still bred from,that is completely different and a very serious problem.

[RottPerth]

This topic is in the general discussion area now