Cdc Data On Dog Attacks

[HugUrPup]

The Sachs study is meaningless as it relies on media reports. An anti-intellectual position if there ever was one. It's supporters fail to understand in the US the term pit bull refers to a group of breeds, the most defined one being the AST! Apples and pears, not anti-intellectualism just bad research and poor statistics. I have never heard any APBT supporter blame the victim, those supporting BDL definitely attack APBT owners though. No matter which way one swings the cat in the end CDC does not and never has listed breed as a determinant of aggression, despite studying this topic more than any other group.

A cursory glance at Germanys Nuremburg laws will quickly uncover the template for BDL and finally the anti-terror laws. Racism in all but name.

It's not ONLY media reports he also used data from the human society.

ETA

Procedure

We collected data from The Humane Society of the

United States (HSUS) and media accounts related to

dog bite attacks and fatalities, using methods from previous

studies.1

Edited March 26, 2010 by puggerup

[justin19801]

The Sachs study is meaningless as it relies on media reports. An anti-intellectual position if there ever was one. It's supporters fail to understand in the US the term pit bull refers to a group of breeds, the most defined one being the AST! Apples and pears, not anti-intellectualism just bad research and poor statistics. I have never heard any APBT supporter blame the victim, those supporting BDL definitely attack APBT owners though. No matter which way one swings the cat in the end CDC does not and never has listed breed as a determinant of aggression, despite studying this topic more than any other group.

A cursory glance at Germanys Nuremburg laws will quickly uncover the template for BDL and finally the anti-terror laws. Racism in all but name.

It's not ONLY media reports he also used a registry from the human society.

Who get their info from ... media reports, anti-intellectualism at it's best. At least now due to public pressure they want APBTs evaluated, even those from fighting rings. A turn around of massive proportions thanks to the Michael Vick dogs and Best Friends Animal Society. Only the nutters at PETA openly support BDL. Not surprising given their white Anglo middle class supporters.

BDL will end in Australia when it becomes socially unacceptable to belong to anti-intellectual groups such as the R$PCA.

[sandgrubber]

If I find the data messy and can't separate apples from pears, I go to the category 'pom fruit' or Roseaceae -- something that encompasses both apples and pears. Likewise, if there are real problems separating SBT, ASBT, APBT and BTX's, the normal way to deal with ambiguity is to move to something like 'bull breeds'.

If this is done, the results will still look bad. Try that with the NSW dog attack data . . . the bull breeds are in big trouble. Yah, yah, yah . .. the APBT barely makes a showing in the years since BSL appeared in NSW; that's probably because a ranger who reported an APBT attack would immediately be pilloried by a 'boss' for improperly managing a restricted beed, so it's easier to say 'bull terrier or bull terrier cross'.

In my observations, in Australia, in Europe and the US, the bull terrier group has a wide range of temperaments. I love the 'good' Staffies and have met some very loveable APBT's and ASBTs. In the broad sweep of things, I think bull terrier folk need to knuckle down and push people into breeding out aggression. Instead I see them attacking people who hold up the best available data and implying they are Nazis and saying that the best available data are rubbish. If you don't like Sachs et al, please let us know where better data are to be found, or even, what methodology you'd recommend, given the great confusion that 95+% of the population has distinguishing the various bull breeds, to come up with more accurate data, and the immense difficulty of coming out with accurate breed identification at a state or national level.

The Sachs study is meaningless as it relies on media reports. An anti-intellectual position if there ever was one. It's supporters fail to understand in the US the term pit bull refers to a group of breeds, the most defined one being the AST! Apples and pears, not anti-intellectualism just bad research and poor statistics. I have never heard any APBT supporter blame the victim, those supporting BDL definitely attack APBT owners though. No matter which way one swings the cat in the end CDC does not and never has listed breed as a determinant of aggression, despite studying this topic more than any other group.

A cursory glance at Germanys Nuremburg laws will quickly uncover the template for BDL and finally the anti-terror laws. Racism in all but name.

Edited March 26, 2010 by sandgrubber

[whippets]

I believe that with proper breeding practices and the right imports, the APBT COULD have been an acceptable breed in this country. Unfortunately it is beyond that now in Australia. The breed paid the price for the wrong imports, the wrong people breeding and the wrong people owning.

I couldn't pick to much out of the data sg presented. Albeit my only experience with statistics was 1 semester at uni last year. I'm glad I don't have to calculate hypothesis tests and probability again

[justin19801]

If I find the data messy and can't separate apples from pears, I go to the category 'pom fruit' or Roseaceae -- something that encompasses both apples and pears. Likewise, if there are real problems separating SBT, ASBT, APBT and BTX's, the normal way to deal with ambiguity is to move to something like 'bull breeds'.

If this is done, the results will still look bad. Try that with the NSW dog attack data . . . the bull breeds are in big trouble. Yah, yah, yah . .. the APBT barely makes a showing in the years since BSL appeared in NSW; that's probably because a ranger who reported an APBT attack would immediately be pilloried by a 'boss' for improperly managing a restricted beed, so it's easier to say 'bull terrier or bull terrier cross'.

In my observations, in Australia, in Europe and the US, the bull terrier group has a wide range of temperaments. I love the 'good' Staffies and have met some very loveable APBT's and ASBTs. In the broad sweep of things, I think bull terrier folk need to knuckle down and push people into breeding out aggression. Instead I see them attacking people who hold up the best available data and implying they are Nazis and saying that the best available data are rubbish. If you don't like Sachs et al, please let us know where better data are to be found, or even, what methodology you'd recommend, given the great confusion that 95+% of the population has distinguishing the various bull breeds, to come up with more accurate data, and the immense difficulty of coming out with accurate breed identification at a state or national level.

The Sachs study is meaningless as it relies on media reports. An anti-intellectual position if there ever was one. It's supporters fail to understand in the US the term pit bull refers to a group of breeds, the most defined one being the AST! Apples and pears, not anti-intellectualism just bad research and poor statistics. I have never heard any APBT supporter blame the victim, those supporting BDL definitely attack APBT owners though. No matter which way one swings the cat in the end CDC does not and never has listed breed as a determinant of aggression, despite studying this topic more than any other group.

A cursory glance at Germanys Nuremburg laws will quickly uncover the template for BDL and finally the anti-terror laws. Racism in all but name.

Interesting you claim APBT, SBT, BTx and ASBT (whatever they are but it proves my point) are one and the same, so do I (except for BTx). In other jurisdictions so is the Boxer and any shorthaired muscular looking dog, as is the AmBulldog. I agree apples and pears is a poor comparison, chalk and cheese much better.

Even dog fighters have never breed for aggression until the involvement of the gangs in recent years. An aggressive dog is an unstable and scared dog. No good for anything let alone fighting.

Data is not knowledge, statistics 101. Poor statistics are worse than no statistics.

No one is calling anyone a NAZI, compare the Nuremburg Laws and BDL and tell me the difference.

APBTs are just dogs.

Why does no one feel compassion for the victims of other breeds? Probably coz they can't get on their high horse and pontificate.

[justin19801]

I believe that with proper breeding practices and the right imports, the APBT COULD have been an acceptable breed in this country. Unfortunately it is beyond that now in Australia. The breed paid the price for the wrong imports, the wrong people breeding and the wrong people owning.

I couldn't pick to much out of the data sg presented. Albeit my only experience with statistics was 1 semester at uni last year. I'm glad I don't have to calculate hypothesis tests and probability again

My point about BDL exactly, it's not about the dogs but a genuine dislike of the owners who tend to be ethnic and lower middle to working class. The number of times I've heard "It's the Lebs in Sydney who give them a bad name" from white middleclass anglos is beyond a joke.

Ditto on the last point.

BDL is the shoehorn which will fit anti-breeding legislation thanks to the PDE doco. Whippetts will be on the hit list.

Edited March 26, 2010 by justin19801

[sandgrubber]

If I find the data messy and can't separate apples from pears, I go to the category 'pom fruit' or Roseaceae -- something that encompasses both apples and pears. Likewise, if there are real problems separating SBT, ASBT, APBT and BTX's, the normal way to deal with ambiguity is to move to something like 'bull breeds'.

Interesting you claim APBT, SBT, BTx and ASBT (whatever they are but it proves my point) are one and the same, so do I (except for BTx). In other jurisdictions so is the Boxer and any shorthaired muscular looking dog, as is the AmBulldog. I agree apples and pears is a poor comparison, chalk and cheese much better.

Interesting how you misinterpret my words and think anyone has proven any point. I went up a step in the Linnean system and aggregated species into genus. I can imagine places where similar use of aggregation might aggregate Homo sapiens, H. erectus, and the the Austrailopithocenes (H something-or-other) . . or go up another notch and class us together with the chimps and gorillas to say something about some primate group. That is not to say there is no difference between us and our ancestral species or taxonomic cousings . . . or that there's no difference between an apple, a pear, and a nashi pear. Just to say we're part of a larger group stemming from a common origin -- as are apples and pears. Chalk and cheese do not share common ancestry, so far as I know. As to dogs . . . the boxer originates the Mastiff group and does not fall in the same branch of the family tree as the bull terriers. Dog family trees get messy, cause in theory, all of them can interbreed.

More basically, to quote Bill Gates: "Show me the numbers." If the available data are poor, tell me where I can find better. Saying the CDC never concluded there were breed specific problems is not satisfactory. Maybe the CDC was under pressure of some sort that prevented them from taking a position. Every data set I come across points to a problem.

Edited March 26, 2010 by sandgrubber

[bryan_mannix]

Dog attack deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada September 1982 to November 13, 2006

Merritt Clifton

Methods

this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified

breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others

with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. Due to the exclusion

of dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, this is by no means a complete

list of fatal and otherwise serious dog attacks. Attacks by police dogs,

guard dogs, and dogs trained specifically to fight are also excluded.

"Attacks doing bodily harm" includes all fatalities, maimings, and other

injuries requiring extensive hospital treatment. "Maimings" includes

permanent disfigurement or loss of a limb.

[Jed]

Sandgrubber, I came to the conclusion, after doing my head in, that most of the stats on dog bites are only a guide, but if you are intent on using them, find as many as you can, and read them. Stats for dog bites in every Aust state are available, and you need to consider popularity of breed and density of it in the public arena. There are stats adjusted numerically. I've got a drawer full of them, but I'm over reading them.

ACD topped the list a few years running, because every red/blue dog, no matter what parentage, was listed as ACD. The people classifying the dog at the time of the attack are often "having a guess". If you interview some of them, you are simply bewildered. Labs figure high on some lists - more labs in the population?

More pitbull attacks in US - more pitbulls there.

And you need to research more than stats.

And pitbulls are rarely human aggressive. That is not bred into them. A pit dog which was HA would not have survived - because it could not be handled, and pit dogs needed to be handled.

From reading detailed reports on pitbulls which attacked, or court transcripts, it is obvious that most of the dogs which attacked had far from responsible owners. eg - The pitbull, Zeus, which killed the child in Germany had not eaten for 3 days, and was full of drugs (forgotten which ones, steroids??), according to the pm report.

Unfortunately, since the bans, the ethical breeders are no longer breeding, but all the underground ones are.

Whippets, the reasons people are quoting "t shirt slogans" at you is because they are valid comments.

The bottom line is that BSL didn't solve anything. It hurt an enormous number of people, but the dog bites didn't fall.

The bull breeds, bigger terriers, some of the bigger guarding breeds are "harder" dogs than most of the toys, and spaniels.

For BSL to solve dog attacks, every dog over 10kg needs to be banned. There will still be attacks then, but the damage wont be as severe.

Read the laws in Germany, that's where we are headed.

People who post on these forums need to be aware that the journalists read these forums as do the general public. I can't remember if it was the Geelong Adi or the Herald Sun but the Australian dog forums were referred to in their newspaper article

People who use this forum have been aware, long before you joined, that the media reads the forum, as does the RSPCA. And the forum has often been referred to by the media over the years. The media often contacts people on the forum for information etc, including stats LOL.

You agree with BSL, you don't agree with pitbull ownership. Your choice. Because people disagree with you doesn't make them morons.

And the whole deal is not about pitbulls, it's about dogs, and responsible ownership, and the ability of people to legally own dogs over 20cm high.

People who come to the forum to glorify dog fighting seem to be either pitbull owners, or would be pitbull owners. And the media does read the forum.

Makes you wonder why you bothered.

Oh, and the people from this forum have made a difference to BSL.

Get your t shirt ready, Whippets - responsible ownership is the answer. Enforcement of existing legislation, follow up by councils on reports of dogs biting or rushing, or menacing, follow up on dogs misbehaving at off leash parks. Follow up on roaming dogs. Not more unenforced legislation, and not BSL.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Jed

[whippets]

Made a difference? yes it looks it considering Brumby is tightening the DD laws even more. You don't think this in turn will affect BSL? My oath it will.

I didn't call anyone here a moron. I'll leave the "bog ignorant" "twaddle" and "total crap" quotes to you. The only thing I've learned from you as that you are very good at using google and using the Copy & Paste feature on your computer.

What you DO need for the anti-BSL campaigns are articulate, level headed, intelligent people. This is probably one of the reasons why restrictions on GSD's have succeeded and APBT's have failed. I certainly don't see it in the posts that I have read. All I've read are attacks on people who don't agree or the use of fear tactics to gain favor (your breed will be next!!!). The approach is WRONG and the attitudes are WRONG.

[justin19801]

Dog attack deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada September 1982 to November 13, 2006

Merritt Clifton

Methods

this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified

breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others

with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. Due to the exclusion

of dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, this is by no means a complete

list of fatal and otherwise serious dog attacks. Attacks by police dogs,

guard dogs, and dogs trained specifically to fight are also excluded.

"Attacks doing bodily harm" includes all fatalities, maimings, and other

injuries requiring extensive hospital treatment. "Maimings" includes

permanent disfigurement or loss of a limb.

The Merritt-Clifton reports

- Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts

since 1982 anti-intellectualism at it's best as is your feeble attempt to hide the fact

- quoted only by ambulance chasing lawyer websites and hate sites such as dogsbite.org. Not science, statistics or even data, just rubbish.

- pushes an anti APBT and Rottweiler agenda.

If you have good hard data that shows some breeds are more dangerous than others than others please quote, I certainly don't want to own a dangerous dog liable to turn on me or my family, but there is no evidence that APBTs are in that category. The Bogan statisticians here keep trying to prove it, but they still can't. By the time they get to the Merritt-Clifton Report you know they've hit rock bottom. Even Hugh Wirth is on record last year as saying herding dogs are the most dangerous, a slip-up no one has picked him up on.

[justin19801]

Made a difference? yes it looks it considering Brumby is tightening the DD laws even more. You don't think this in turn will affect BSL? My oath it will.

I didn't call anyone here a moron. I'll leave the "bog ignorant" "twaddle" and "total crap" quotes to you. The only thing I've learned from you as that you are very good at using google and using the Copy & Paste feature on your computer.

What you DO need for the anti-BSL campaigns are articulate, level headed, intelligent people. This is probably one of the reasons why restrictions on GSD's have succeeded and APBT's have failed. I certainly don't see it in the posts that I have read. All I've read are attacks on people who don't agree or the use of fear tactics to gain favor (your breed will be next!!!). The approach is WRONG and the attitudes are WRONG.

I assume if the R$PCA came around to seize and kill your dog whippetts you would simply hand them over coz it's the law, no abuse, arguement etc from you. What I would expect from someone with a fashion accessory, not a living, breathing loving animal IMO.

BDL re. GSDs was never as bad as now and was overturned when the Minister for Customs, Don Chip, overturned it. Reason, he owned GSDs.

APBT owners can't take their dogs out to show how how great they are are for fear of them being seized and killed by the R$PCA.

BDL is enforced by racists and sickos who love lauding their power over others, esprcially animals. If you think you are safe from them, boy are you mistaken. The link to anti-pet ownership has already been proven.

Reality check, fine-boned dogs with nervous dispositions will be banned thanks to PDE.

An incompetent premier heading an incompetent government which will introduced laws he admits will overide peoples rights. Do you think he is electorally in trouble and is looking for a distraction?

Edited March 27, 2010 by justin19801

[justin19801]

If I find the data messy and can't separate apples from pears, I go to the category 'pom fruit' or Roseaceae -- something that encompasses both apples and pears. Likewise, if there are real problems separating SBT, ASBT, APBT and BTX's, the normal way to deal with ambiguity is to move to something like 'bull breeds'.

Interesting you claim APBT, SBT, BTx and ASBT (whatever they are but it proves my point) are one and the same, so do I (except for BTx). In other jurisdictions so is the Boxer and any shorthaired muscular looking dog, as is the AmBulldog. I agree apples and pears is a poor comparison, chalk and cheese much better.

Interesting how you misinterpret my words and think anyone has proven any point. I went up a step in the Linnean system and aggregated species into genus. I can imagine places where similar use of aggregation might aggregate Homo sapiens, H. erectus, and the the Austrailopithocenes (H something-or-other) . . or go up another notch and class us together with the chimps and gorillas to say something about some primate group. That is not to say there is no difference between us and our ancestral species or taxonomic cousings . . . or that there's no difference between an apple, a pear, and a nashi pear. Just to say we're part of a larger group stemming from a common origin -- as are apples and pears. Chalk and cheese do not share common ancestry, so far as I know. As to dogs . . . the boxer originates the Mastiff group and does not fall in the same branch of the family tree as the bull terriers. Dog family trees get messy, cause in theory, all of them can interbreed.

More basically, to quote Bill Gates: "Show me the numbers." If the available data are poor, tell me where I can find better. Saying the CDC never concluded there were breed specific problems is not satisfactory. Maybe the CDC was under pressure of some sort that prevented them from taking a position. Every data set I come across points to a problem.

Boxer considered a Pit Bull in the US. Other than that I have no idea what your talking about If you support BDL then as Bill Gates sais "show me the numbers". So far you haven't come up with the goods. More than likely you consider BDL like Microsoft does fines, a cost of doing business and BDL simply the cost to owning dogs, although in your case it doesn't seem to affect you so it's OK. Who says us Aussies are so laid back & only care when it affects us personally!

[RottnBullies]

I believe that with proper breeding practices and the right imports, the APBT COULD have been an acceptable breed in this country. Unfortunately it is beyond that now in Australia. The breed paid the price for the wrong imports, the wrong people breeding and the wrong people owning.

This Is nothing short of laughable, and you then wonder why people have digs at your comments

ETA: As for your past comment on google and copy and paste.........where are you getting your information from? Are you In converse with APBT breeders? My bet Is you're just a follower following the hype! Baaaaaaa

Edited March 27, 2010 by RottnBullies

[chrisjc]

im sorry but you can all look at as many websites as you want but until you have had hands on experience and i dont mean patting one in the street all you really have if anything is an "self educated opinion" on what the apbt does and is.

do a bit more research Whippets you will see that in America to this day the so called "fighting lines" that you seem to think infected our "stock" are the same bloodlines, that are dominating the show sides of the breed over there.

Jeep is still one of the favourite bloodlines bar none and its no wonder. Jeep was a great looking dog who to look at is the perfect example of what the breed should be.

some of you are still not grasping the concept that the HA that the dogs are showing is something that OUR bybreeders have made happened.

WE have done this to the breed not the dog fighters, more APBT have been seized and killed through bsl than ever died in the confines of a pit.

the breed was in a better place temperement wise when it was used in the pit.

in an age we are in now Dogfighting should not be tolerated thank god, but the breed was in a better place before drug dealers and people needing penis enlargments got a hold of them.

it used to be classed as a gentlemans sport in its heyday.

i recently read an interveiw[very old] with an ex dog fighter before he passed on. in that interveiw he stated that the worst thing that ever happened to the Apbt is it being made availible to the average joe, if they were as highly gaurded as they were way back then we would probly not even know what they were, and we certainly wouldnt be in the nasty position we are in now.

[tybrax]

tybrax

Edited March 27, 2010 by tybrax

[sandgrubber]

Boxer considered a Pit Bull in the US. Other than that I have no idea what your talking about If you support BDL then as Bill Gates sais "show me the numbers". So far you haven't come up with the goods. More than likely you consider BDL like Microsoft does fines, a cost of doing business and BDL simply the cost to owning dogs, although in your case it doesn't seem to affect you so it's OK. Who says us Aussies are so laid back & only care when it affects us personally!

The US is a large and diverse place that encourages freedom of speech. So it's likely that there are some misinformed people who think boxers are related to pit bulls. Ok .. . long ago . . . through the common ancestral wolf genes. But Chihuahuas and Newfoundlands are also related to APBTs . . . and to boxers . . . and to the whole kit and kaboodle

As for the numbers, I think we're missing connection. I, and others who have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL (btw, what is BDL?) and found what numbers we can. 'The numbers' we find when we look around are far from perfect for reasons that are widely and prominently advertised. They are imperfect goods, but they are goods. And time and again they suggest breed-specific problems.

Your turn. Please find some numbers; fine if data are rough and have to include caveats. Anything concrete that shows that bull breeds are no more problematic than other breeds would be of great help to those of us who are, at heart, against BSL, but find a lot of evidence saying some breeds are a problem.

Edited March 27, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Jed]

I believe that with proper breeding practices and the right imports, the APBT COULD have been an acceptable breed in this country. Unfortunately it is beyond that now in Australia. The breed paid the price for the wrong imports, the wrong people breeding and the wrong people owning.

This Is nothing short of laughable, and you then wonder why people have digs at your comments

ETA: As for your past comment on google and copy and paste.........where are you getting your information from? Are you In converse with APBT breeders? My bet Is you're just a follower following the hype! Baaaaaaa

She's having a go at me, because I countered the breed specific legislation stuff she was going on with, with quotes from websites in the USA, in answer - and got accused of plagiarism The reason I quoted them is because they say it better than I could, and provide proof. If I say somthing, I have no credibililty.

Inroads have been made towards overturning BSL. Don't forget, it took the GSD lobby over 20 years, BSL has only been in force for 8 years. But the ANKC breeders wont fight for the pitbulls now, they are too busy fighting for their own breeds.

Oh and I've been in heaps of "converse" with pitbull owners. And met and known heaps of pitbulls. I've taken my cavalier champion to pet expos so he could spend a day with those ravening pitbulls. And a nicer, kinder lot of dogs would be difficult to picture.

And I've seen more pitbulls dragged off and knocked off than you've had hot dinners. Nice friendly pitbulls too, never did anything wrong. Old ones, young ones, might be pitbulls, staffies that had no papers, brown dogs, black dogs, Amstaffs, yellow dogs, 60cm tall dogs which looked like labrador x, and probably were. . And you know what? NONE - NOT ONE - of those thousands of dogs had EVER done anything wrong. None had ever "turned", none had ever exerted 2000 lbs jaw pressure on some unsuspecting child, they were all snoozing around the house, playing with the kids, riding in the car when the catching pole went around their throats, and they stopped being nice homely pets and were nasty savage pitblls, then dead meat. Then they were in the council skip.

Because if your dog is judged a dangerous breed, you can't have his body back after the council drags him away, terrified, torments and teases him, and kills him. Yep, he might have been a pet yesterday, but once the council gets him, he's vermin, so of course you can't bury him. He's for the tip with all the other dangerous dogs.

Some of you just don't get it. BSL is not just about banning pitbulls, it's about banning breeds. There is no reason for pitbulls to be banned. Except that governments then had an excuse to crack down on dogs, and negate their legal responsibilities for dog attacks.

If you don't believe me, ask a council CEO. They know perfectly well why the bans are in place. Pitbulls are a scapegoat. If you ask the right one, or you go to an UAM conference, he'll tell you.

Half the dog attacks in Aust. attributed to "pitbulls" were done by some other breed. It's not in the media, but it's in pm reports, court transcripts etc. No one is releasing to the public that the attacking dog was a cattle x labrador x boxer x chihuahua. Doesn't fit the picture. And there has never been a fatal attack by a pitbull in Australia. There have been fatal attacks by other breeds though. Why weren't they banned?

Pitbulls are just dogs. They don't do anything any other similar breed doesn't. They don't suddenly "turn" - there are always triggers, as there are with any breed.

The two dogs who attacked the woman on the Sunshine Coast were Amstaffs. It doesn't matter what they were, they were dogs who should have been properly contained, but were owned by owners who didn't take sufficient care to ensure they didn't attack.

How many pages did it take to tell you about the Toowoomba attack, Sandgrubber, and it also took Tarmons, who said she knew the family for you to believe it?

Boxers are included in some pitbull stats in US, because bull breeds are lumped together. Bull terriers, AST, staffies, boxers, bullmastiffs, blah blah.

Pitbulls originally baited bears, I believe, and attacked rats in the pit, dog fighting came much later. Boxer ancestors baited bulls.

They are both "bull" breeds.

The only reason boxers aren't banned is because the governments decided to pick on pitbulls. And boxers are mostly bred by show breeders, who tend to be middle aged, and tend to sell to responsible homes. And there aren't many byb, so owners tend to be responsible, and the dogs are socialised and trained, and there is less cross breeding.

Believe me, while you are shitting yourself about a pitbull creeping in the window and crushing your skull, worry about boxers too, they could do it just as well, and just as fast.

So could any reasonable sized dog. And if it doesn't worry you that dogs over a certain weight are restricted in Germany, because the pitbull bans didn't reduce the bite stats, you haven't thought about it very carefully.

But it's ok, it's not your breed, and probably not likely to be. However, if the German model is followed here, Labradors, Greyhounds, Springer Spaniels, Clumbers and GR's will be restricted.

Maremmas, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Amstaffs and Newfoundlands and 8 other ANKC breeds are already banned in some shires in Qld. And as the shires are amalgamating, the area of the bans widens.

And the rot is spreading.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Jed

[justin19801]

Boxer considered a Pit Bull in the US. Other than that I have no idea what your talking about :D If you support BDL then as Bill Gates sais "show me the numbers". So far you haven't come up with the goods. More than likely you consider BDL like Microsoft does fines, a cost of doing business and BDL simply the cost to owning dogs, although in your case it doesn't seem to affect you so it's OK. Who says us Aussies are so laid back & only care when it affects us personally!

The US is a large and diverse place that encourages freedom of speech. So it's likely that there are some misinformed people who think boxers are related to pit bulls. Ok .. . long ago . . . through the common ancestral wolf genes. But Chihuahuas and Newfoundlands are also related to APBTs . . . and to boxers . . . and to the whole kit and kaboodle

As for the numbers, I think we're missing connection. I, and others who have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL (btw, what is BDL?) and found what numbers we can. 'The numbers' we find when we look around are far from perfect for reasons that are widely and prominently advertised. They are imperfect goods, but they are goods. And time and again they suggest breed-specific problems.

Your turn. Please find some numbers; fine if data are rough and have to include caveats. Anything concrete that shows that bull breeds are no more problematic than other breeds would be of great help to those of us who are, at heart, against BSL, but find a lot of evidence saying some breeds are a problem.

BDL - Breed Discriminatory Legislation.

The numbers are not just far from perfect but totally irrelevant for the reasons stated. Rather than present authoritative stats you quote rubbish used by ambulance chasing lawyer websites and hate sites. You ignore CDC statisticians and countries that have reversed BDL because it is ineffective. You claim to have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL but have done no such thing.

In my considered opinion all you have done is place yourself in the same corner as racketeers and killers of harmless family pets based solely on their looks. Have you inspected the Calgary legislation which has been shown to be the most successful in North America? Of course not. If you wish to be taken seriously then present something useful. I will be the first to back BDL and have all killer breeds removed from society if you do because I certainly don't want killer dogs of any breed in society.

[Jed]

Justin, give Sandgrubber a chance to find out for herself. If she does sufficient research, she'll see the picture. You abusing her wont help her find out things.