Womans Arm Severed By Dog

[poodlefan]

PF - while I understand that environment plays a part, I will once again use the Pug as an example. You can chain up a Pug, lock it in a cage, beat it with sticks, never let it socialise and allow it to experience every horror there is and only probably 1 in 1000 will display aggression (except maybe food aggression). A guess I know.

Do the same to a Pitbull and what would happen? I won't even try to guess but we all know the results would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. You CAN NOT deny that breeding and genetics play a large role in the temperament of a dog.

I don't deny it Anne and all the research supports that it plays a part. What concerns me (as I posted yesterday) is that the moment a breed label is applied to a dog, all other searching for explanations ceases. Genetics alone can never explain these sorts of tragedies.

I'd like to know how that dog was acquired, for what purpose, how it was socialised and housed and what function it performed for its owner. I'd also like to know its age, sex and desexing status. And I'd particularly like to know if it had a history of aggression.

There ARE pitbulls, Rotties etc that are big cuddly teddy bears.. partly because they've been bred for stable temperament and no doubt because they've been raised to form effective social bonds with people.

Any large powerful dog requires effort, management and respect. That includes breeds most folk would never consider a danger.. Golden Retrievers are just as capable of this sort of damage. Their saving grace is that they haven't been irresponsibly bred as extensively as they are overseas and few people who want a 'tough' breed are interested in acquring one.

I really feel for people who love the big powerful breeds.

And I really hope they managed to save this poor woman's arm.

Edited March 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[~Anne~]

Do the same to a Pitbull and what would happen? I won't even try to guess but we all know the results would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. You CAN NOT deny that breeding and genetics play a large role in the temperament of a dog.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/07/vick.dogs.rehab/index.html

That's a lovely story but I am not sure why you highlighted it to me? I haven't said that a dog can not be rehabilitated. :D I am only arguing the point that we can't claim that genetics do not help determine a dog's temperament and that we make a mockery of our claims of the certainty of the characteristics of a purebred dog by arguing this.

PF - while I understand that environment plays a part, I will once again use the Pug as an example. You can chain up a Pug, lock it in a cage, beat it with sticks, never let it socialise and allow it to experience every horror there is and only probably 1 in 1000 will display aggression (except maybe food aggression). A guess I know.

Do the same to a Pitbull and what would happen? I won't even try to guess but we all know the results would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. You CAN NOT deny that breeding and genetics play a large role in the temperament of a dog.

So one could argue that BSL does indeed have it's place and restrictions should apply for certain "breeds" ?

Breed or cross aside, I would still like to know how many of the boxes that particular dog ticked.

I do not agree that we should exstinguish any breed, nor do I believe that dogs who have never displayed aggression in any form should be seized, caged, removed from loving homes or euthanased.

Dogs who have the breeding to become dangerous in the wrong hands, should never be placed in the wrong hands. There should be restrictions placed on the ownership of some breeds. This not only should apply to large and powerful breeds but working breeds kept in suburbia and others who likewise are owned and handled by people in conditions that the breed is not suitable for.

[Monah]

Did anyone see the interview on Sunrise with the RSPCA ( American lady ) rep, she was terrific. Wish more RSPCA were like her, a very balanced and informed reply, well done. :D

Yes I did and wass very impressed with her. She kept cool, concise, and did not enter into the hysterics even when pushed.

When asked about labradors biting etc and if they could ever attack like this dog had, she said the worse attack she had ever seen in USA was by a lab. She was very ethical and did not enter into any breed bashing at all and said ANY dog is capable and refused to be drawn on the breed of dog being some sort of reason. Thank goodness, first time I've seen such a great initerview.

Was a very handsome dog. Poor woman, what a shock, something triggered it, God knows what.

[~Anne~]

PF - while I understand that environment plays a part, I will once again use the Pug as an example. You can chain up a Pug, lock it in a cage, beat it with sticks, never let it socialise and allow it to experience every horror there is and only probably 1 in 1000 will display aggression (except maybe food aggression). A guess I know.

Do the same to a Pitbull and what would happen? I won't even try to guess but we all know the results would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. You CAN NOT deny that breeding and genetics play a large role in the temperament of a dog.

I don't deny it Anne and all the research supports that it plays a part. What concerns me (as I posted yesterday) is that the moment a breed label is applied to a dog, all other searching for explanations ceases. Genetics alone can never explain these sorts of tragedies.

I'd like to know how that dog was acquired, for what purpose, how it was socialised and housed and what function it performed for its owner. I'd also like to know its age, sex and desexing status. And I'd particularly like to know if it had a history of aggression.

There ARE pitbulls, Rotties etc that are big cuddly teddy bears.. partly because they've been bred for stable temperament and no doubt because they've been raised to form effective social bonds with people.

Any large powerful dog requires effort, management and respect. That includes breeds most folk would never consider a danger.. Golden Retrievers are just as capable of this sort of damage. Their saving grace is that they haven't been irresponsibly bred as extensively as they are overseas and few people who want a 'tough' breed are interested in acquring one.

I really feel for people who love the big powerful breeds.

And I really hope they managed to save this poor woman's arm.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with what you have said.

[Guest Tess32]

Those of you who think it is always the owner's fault as they must have mistreated or 'known' it was aggressive are just wrong.

My 'sweet' little Collie has attacked....multiple bites and he wasn't stopping. He was extremely well socialised, is a super sweet dog and it's not like we had a poor understanding of leadership.

You can't always predict what your dog will do, no matter how much you think you can.

[poodlefan]

Those of you who think it is always the owner's fault as they must have mistreated or 'known' it was aggressive are just wrong.

My 'sweet' little Collie has attacked....multiple bites and he wasn't stopping. He was extremely well socialised, is a super sweet dog and it's not like we had a poor understanding of leadership.

You can't always predict what your dog will do, no matter how much you think you can.

Tess, I'm limiting my discussion to dogs that maim or kill. I don't think your dog fits that profile. :D

[Staranais]

Do the same to a Pitbull and what would happen? I won't even try to guess but we all know the results would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. You CAN NOT deny that breeding and genetics play a large role in the temperament of a dog.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/07/vick.dogs.rehab/index.html

That's a lovely story but I am not sure why you highlighted it to me? I haven't said that a dog can not be rehabilitated. :D I am only arguing the point that we can't claim that genetics do not help determine a dog's temperament and that we make a mockery of our claims of the certainty of the characteristics of a purebred dog by arguing this.

Simply because you said that we all know that the results of abusing a pitbull would be far different to what would happen with a more docile breed. I don't necessarily think that's true. Sometimes the "less docile" breeds can undergo horrendous abuse and come out with lovely characters - as in this case.

But yes, I certainly agree with you that genetics do help determine a dog's temperament. Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent so much time investigating the breed, and breeder, of my current working dog - I would have just saved money and gotten any old puppy from the pound.

[Guest Tess32]

Those of you who think it is always the owner's fault as they must have mistreated or 'known' it was aggressive are just wrong.

My 'sweet' little Collie has attacked....multiple bites and he wasn't stopping. He was extremely well socialised, is a super sweet dog and it's not like we had a poor understanding of leadership.

You can't always predict what your dog will do, no matter how much you think you can.

Tess, I'm limiting my discussion to dogs that maim or kill. I don't think your dog fits that profile. :D

Doesn't he? What if he had the jaw strength of a pitbull or more powerful breed? I think it's hard to really go "only THIS amount of bites = really bad"...

I'm not saying he had the intent to KILL of course, but it was still a 'sustained attack', and these same arguments come up.

[poodlefan]

Those of you who think it is always the owner's fault as they must have mistreated or 'known' it was aggressive are just wrong.

My 'sweet' little Collie has attacked....multiple bites and he wasn't stopping. He was extremely well socialised, is a super sweet dog and it's not like we had a poor understanding of leadership.

You can't always predict what your dog will do, no matter how much you think you can.

Tess, I'm limiting my discussion to dogs that maim or kill. I don't think your dog fits that profile. :D

Doesn't he? What if he had the jaw strength of a pitbull or more powerful breed? I think it's hard to really go "only THIS amount of bites = really bad"...

I'm not saying he had the intent to KILL of course, but it was still a 'sustained attack', and these same arguments come up.

Has he maimed or killed someone? Those are the dogs the research looks at.

Look any dog can bite. Any dog if sufficiently provoked for what every reason may bite repeatedly.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about dogs that kill and severely injure people. Have a good think about the difference in injury type between a dog that inflicts bites without tearing (my guess is your dog punctured only?) and the sort of dog that literally tears people apart as the dog this thread is about did. Ian Dunbar has some interesting stuff on bite types. How the dog places its mouth on a person and what teeth it uses can be real indicators of the intent of the bite.

The research is fascinating if somewhat morbid. Did you know that there are breeds of dogs that have only ever attacked as a pack and never singly.

There is a large breed of dog that has only killed tiny babies.. never an adult. Interestingly those dogs don't tend to have bite histories.

If you can get a copy of Fatal Dog Attacks, it makes sobering reading. And the common theme running through it is that human contribution be it neglect, failure to supervise or active encouragement of aggression, always plays its part. Breed labelling neglects that factor entirely.

Edited March 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[Zhou Xuanyao]

You tend to talk mainly about the APBT in the USA which has MUCH less "fighting line" blood than Australia.

Oh woah thats a good one.

You have proved that accusing other people of having their head up their kolo is merely you projecting.

I have to hand it to you though, of all the brilliant statements I have read on this forum that is one of the best. Please, tell me more :D

[Guest Tess32]

No, but it only takes more strength to 'maim'. I just think that's drawing a subjective line down the sand.

[Staranais]

No, but it only takes more strength to 'maim'. I just think that's drawing a subjective line down the sand.

Or a smaller/weaker victim! I agree with Tess32. The fact that the dog is attempting to maim or kill a person is more relevant than whether or not the dog actually manages to accomplish the deed.

[Lally]

Just listened to a report on Jon Faine's ABC Melbourne program and his interview with one of the two men who broke in and saved the woman. He said that the scene was horrific and saturated with blood.

The neighbour was summoned by the woman's grand daughter who was hysterical. He and his brother tore over and smashed their way in and confronted the dog with a green wheely bin and finally forced it into another room and closed the door.

The dog had been living with the victim for 3 years and its actual owner, her grandson, had visited but just returned to Melbourne. As she walked in her back door, the dog lunged at her, he said, without apparent rhyme or reason. The rescuer knew the dog well for years, liked the dog, said that it had never been a problem before, it seemed a happy and likeable dog....it aparently just snapped and attacked. Of course there is now a talk-back debate ensuing.

The bottom line is that these type of dogs terrify many people, as do some of the owners of these dogs. Evidence that this well-liked dog 'turned' without warning or provocation, if confirmed, will simpy add to this fear.

[poodlefan]

No, but it only takes more strength to 'maim'. I just think that's drawing a subjective line down the sand.

Or a smaller/weaker victim! I agree with Tess32. The fact that the dog is attempting to maim or kill a person is more relevant than whether or not the dog actually manages to accomplish the deed.

Look to bite type then. Puncture wounds don't maim. Ripping, head shaking and use of rear molars on bone do.

[poodlefan]

The bottom line is that these type of dogs terrify many people, as do some of the owners of these dogs. Evidence that this well-liked dog 'turned' without warning or provocation, if confirmed, will simpy add to this fear.

Dogs "turning" is largely a myth. The fact that the victim cannot identify the trigger for the attack doesn't mean there wasn't one. :D

[Guest Tess32]

No, but it only takes more strength to 'maim'. I just think that's drawing a subjective line down the sand.

Or a smaller/weaker victim! I agree with Tess32. The fact that the dog is attempting to maim or kill a person is more relevant than whether or not the dog actually manages to accomplish the deed.

Look to bite type then. Puncture wounds don't maim. Ripping, head shaking and use of rear molars on bone do.

I agree there's a difference...and I would GUESS it indicates the reasons a dog attacks, ie...X drive means Y type of bite.

But it could also depend on the reaction of the victim. The dog may have just lunged/bit initially, and then the victim goes nuts screaming and running, and it turns into a potentially fatal attack. I think THAT could happen with many, many dogs.

[poodlefan]

Added to explain my use of the term "bite type"

Dr. Ian Dunbar's bite assessment criteria when assessing a dog bite.

Level 1- Dog growls, lunges, snarls-no teeth touch skin. Mostly intimidation behavior.

Level 2- Teeth touch skin but no puncture. May have red mark/minor bruise from dog’s head or snout, may have minor scratches from paws/nails. Minor surface abrasions acceptable.

Level 3- Punctures ½ the length of a canine tooth, one to four holes, single bite.No tearing or slashes.Victim not shaken side to side. Bruising.

Level 4- One to four holes from a single bite, one hole deeper than ½ the length of a canine tooth, typically contact/punctures from more than canines only. Black bruising, tears and/or slashing wounds. Dog clamped down and shook or slashed victim.

Level 5- Multiple bites at Level 4 or above. A concerted, repeated attack.

Level 6- Any bite resulting in death of a human.

[BJean]

I do not agree that we should exstinguish any breed, nor do I believe that dogs who have never displayed aggression in any form should be seized, caged, removed from loving homes or euthanased.

Dogs who have the breeding to become dangerous in the wrong hands, should never be placed in the wrong hands. There should be restrictions placed on the ownership of some breeds. This not only should apply to large and powerful breeds but working breeds kept in suburbia and others who likewise are owned and handled by people in conditions that the breed is not suitable for.

Keep in mind that further restrictions on dogs

and banns dictating which dogs can be kept and where

will not protect dog ownership.

Of course it may keep the ignorant warm at night

as they imagine a delightful Australia full of pugs and harmless SWFs

but it will only erode the future and freedom of dog ownership.

[dogbesotted]

a shocking shocking incident. i pray that the woman recovers as much as possible both physically and mentally.

The predicatble media frenzy is also a tragedy.

any larger sized dog is capable of inflicting horrific injuries on human beings.. the smaller the human the smaller the dog capable of inflicting terrible injuries. The frenzy .

does not result in one iota of responsible regulation or legislation or one person becoming a more responsible owner.. so where to from here????

I have had the pleasure of owning several pitbulls... and known many

one was certainly more problematic than the others.. however he was finally diagnosed as "hyperthyroid" yes hyper thyroid and this was the probable explanation for his sudden changes in behaviour. we was euthanised. this dog had been a pet dog owned by several idiotic young men..... this dog appeared to have no "connection" with people. now i do not know if it was how he was raised, how he was born, or maybe even a genetic sensitivity to vaccinations etc.. who know. but certainly i would not judge all of the breed by this one dog.

the other was a rescue dog who had been fought regularly for the first 5 years ofhis life. his owner was raided and eventually did jail time for dog fighting...

jake came to me via my son. Jake was absolutely the best dog i have ever had the pleasure of owning. Pleasant, obedient, calm, fun loving, etc etc...

so which is the "generic pitbull" the slavering fighting dog who we all should quake at the mere sight of??????? i for one dont believe that the hyperthyroid dog is the usual example of the breed.

i do not support BSL in any way shape or form .. but i do acknowledge that the big breeds are more capable of inflicting severe damge when things go wrong...

helen

[chrisjc]

Whippets you seem to know way more than Crenshaws jeep/Bass tramps Redboy than i ever will.

they are the dogs who you may be silly enough to think dominate the Australian APBT blood but it shows you know what you know which is stuff all.

The only reason people like you THINK that there are so many of these dogs here [jeep] is because thats what any moron who wants to sell their pitbull puppies for years has thought was the right thing to say, if you knew anything about the origional dogs that came her you would know that there is def one probly two i can think of that far over shadow the numbers of jeep dogs in this country.

if you know so much can u name one Family of APBT [non dual] who you can honestly say in that time period had no fighting stock in their history on a four gen ped. THERE WASNT ANY.

and no offence you can all stand and tell me my breed is one that is dangerous, and unpredictable and i will laugh in your face and tell you where to go because my personal record speaks for itself.

you can also come into the situation with an open mind and willingness to see the OTHER side to the story and i will welcome you in and make you a coffee. you will also leave with a feeling you have beenm wrong all these years, i can be sure of that because my dogs have changed more peoples opinions on this breed than i could have ever hoped for, and that is my goal , one person at a time.

Sometimes i dont understand my own stupid logic, i come on here waiting for a bunch of people who realy are that stuck in their ways they would never change their mind. hell even one of your own sceptics has addmitted to me they had previously owned APBT and it passed on, now that person is the shit stirrer and probly has issues about owning a breed they couldnt handle. i wait for you all to bait me with your ways and then hook line and sinker take the bait.

i am at the stage where due to the laws, my APBT will be the last one i own in Australia she is nearly ten, and i pray she will make it to 15 yrs. she is the softest most sooky dog ive ever owned but greets every single visitor i have with a tail that shakes her whole body when she wags it, she speaks and greets everyone with an equal "hi!" and then showers them with love and short spiky hair until they leave. she has never met a person she cant convert.

maybee if some of you Haterswould activley seek out some real hands on experience with the breed instead of all that great reseach you do on the net you may be suprised.

the logic of bsl is stupid , umm incase you havent noticed the laws have got worse and the byb are taking advantage of it, you can buy an Apbt in any state at anytime with a quick search if you know where to look.just for a try i found five litters yesterday one the ground and ready to go in two weeks. 1500 a pop with no papers. and no whippets they were not jeep dogs. with the stigma the media puts on them and the fear you instill on yourself they dogs are only getting higher in demand and higher in price.

the worset thing is they will all be bred by people who just whack "jonos pittie, up the road with davos bitch whos in season" together and they can put a stupid price on them and make up to 10 tousand off a litter of eight. and i would doubt thatthey would even be wormed or had any shots or had health checks.

BSL is making this breed worse. And wheather you like it or not its pretty obvious in a good type or a bad type they are not going anywhere, wouldnt it be better to have the good type?