Womans Arm Severed By Dog

[mantis]

Cesar Milan is one person.

And he says that they need to be managed very carefully. He wrote an article on his (not so) new pup a while back and some people here got upset because he said... shock horror..... they are powerful dogs that need very strong leadership and someone to manage their interactions with other dogs.

I agree totally with him, but it's not just APBT's that need that, any large or giant breed needs the same thing. Cesar is just showing that with the right owners & training, they are wonderful pets, but unfortunately BSL only concentrates on one breed of dog.

Education & stricter controls on who can own big dogs, is far more important than banning an entire breed.

[HugUrPup]

Cesar Milan is one person.

And he says that they need to be managed very carefully. He wrote an article on his (not so) new pup a while back and some people here got upset because he said... shock horror..... they are powerful dogs that need very strong leadership and someone to manage their interactions with other dogs.

I agree totally with him, but it's not just APBT's that need that, any large or giant breed needs the same thing. Cesar is just showing that with the right owners & training, they are wonderful pets, but unfortunately BSL only concentrates on one breed of dog.

Education & stricter controls on who can own big dogs, is far more important than banning an entire breed.

exactly.. I agree 100% with that

[WoofnHoof]

Many dogs have the potential to be dangerous and when large and powerful breeds are deliberately crossed with the intention of breeding dogs that can take a person's arms off, or are trained to be aggressive towards humans and other animals, then I don't want to be aligned with the people responsible. It is a perverse form of cruelty to animals and the people who are responsible are as guilty as the dog itself when an attack like this happens.

Souff

Even more so IMO, humans have bred a dog which has the morphology which allows it to bring down a large animal on its own. The gray wolf or the village dog or whatever form of ancestral canine you prefer never had this ability, they hunted large animals in packs using slashing wounds and hounding the animal until it bled to death. Those dogs of the past would never have even tried taking down a full grown bovine, it was humans who developed the jaw and the front end of these animals which allowed them to tackle the job.

My chihuahua is agressive, but most of the time nobody cares because if he's not in anyone's face he's not a danger to anyone, the only way he might succeed in severing my arm was if I had died already and he'd had a week or so to gnaw at it.

So what we have is a combination of powerful animals and humans who no longer use them for work and therefore have little understanding of the proper management of powerful animals, and the reasons for it. Therefore controls over ownership and breeding are a logical step to take IMO.

[BJean]

Controls for everyone ? or just controls for those who want/own certain breeds ?

Everyone who chooses to own an animal.

Controls could mean anything from reinforcing some of the existing legislation such as microchipping and registered animals to control on what breeding means and implies. I also believe that there should be controls on the ownership of certain breeds. For example, I live in a townhouse and have scant knowledge of, let's say, Maremmas. I should not be able to purchase and own one unless I can meet it's needs and demonstarte an understanding and knowledge of that breed.

Controls in their own will not suffice though. My statement was; controls AND education.

What's wrong with Maremmas, are they too big for a townhouse?

Do pugs fall under the category "certain breeds"?

Perhaps they should.

I'd rather a dog which is physically sound and has its instincts

than a dog like the pug which has had all its instincts bred out, and all diseases and defects bred in, and getting near kicking the bucket when it nears 28C.

I dont know much about pugs, they just seem like close to the ground blobs that have difficulty breathing and cant move that well.

Not nice is it when prejudice is thrown around based on preference and ignorance?

Well this is what it is like for owners of big dogs or 'certain breeds' - when issues of breed based controls are bandied around based on the unknown and fear.

'tis not very productive is it?

Not directing this solely at you Anne, but to the other posters too who want big dogs controlled ( = big dogs banned in certain areas).

Hmm so if one is over 60yo say, what are the choices for dog ownerhsip: a brainless chihuhua with the nerve and brain of a pea, or a pug that cant breathe.

Aye what horrible generalistations and stereotypes, but this is what prejudice brings.

Edited March 25, 2010 by lilli

[HugUrPup]

than a dog like the pug which has had all its instincts bred out, and all diseases and defects bred in, and getting near kicking the bucket when it nears 28C.

I dont know much about pugs, they just seem like close to the ground blobs that have difficulty breathing and cant move that well.

Not nice is it when prejudice is thrown around based on preference and ignorance?

Well this is what it is like for owners of big dogs or 'certain breeds' - when issues of breed based controls are bandied around based on the unknown and fear.

'tis not very productive is it?

doesn't bother me at all actually. We are after different things from our chosen breeds.. I'm totally fine with that.

Not directing this solely at you Anne, but to the other posteers too who want big dogs controlled ( = big dogs banned in certain areas).

Hmm so if one is over 60yo say, what are the choices for dog ownerhsip: a brainless chihuhua with the nerve nad brain of a pea, or a pug that cant breathe.

Aye what horrible generalistations and stereotypes, but this is what prejudice brings.

Directing it at me then? Not once have I EVER said that I want big dogs banned.. should I even bother to say it again?

I WANT OWNERS TO GET EDUCATED ON THEIR BREEDS BEFORE GETTING ONE THAT IS CAPABLE OF RIPPING ONES ARM OFF!!!!

[ILK]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I was involved in the beginning and I have read the last couple of pages.

Huski mentioned something about the breed being a product of it's environment and I think that most of us were saying exactly that in the beginning.

Of course we don't know the breeding background of this particular dog, but again, does a family pet really continue to attack till the death removing human limbs and whatever else without having been mistreated in some way? It is one thing to bite, but another to kill.

When I say mistreated it could be anything like e.g, not walking the dog, locking the dog in confined spaces, smacking, grabbing, living on a chain, etc, not necessarilly attack or bite train.

This could be any breed, it is just unfortunate that again this dog happens to be a pitbull x so is sensationalised by the media.

[HugUrPup]

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

Edited March 25, 2010 by puggerup

[ILK]

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

That is a good point puggerup. We should all be educated on our breed of choice and people quite often mistreat their pets unintentionally just by not providing them with their physical or emotional needs.

[WoofnHoof]

Yeah but if you don't make education compulsory how do you ensure that it happens? People don't seem to want a mandatory licensing system that would be a way of enforcing the necessary education, getting it into schools is the best way but too long term for the pollies to even consider so what's the answer?

[Zug Zug]

Can't help wondering if this is achievable.

Lots of these dogs are cross-bred anyway. So how do we educate people on what their cross-bred dog is likely to do? What kind of dog education could be offered that isn't already on offer? How do you get people who think they don't need to be educated to take up the education that is on offer?

Education is largely in the hands of the people being educated, and in these cases they largely don't want to know.

I have serious doubts about education of dog owners. Yes we need to educate the community broadly about responsible dog ownership, but I don't think education alone has the potential to significantly reduce dog attacks.

[HugUrPup]

Can't help wondering if this is achievable.

Lots of these dogs are cross-bred anyway. So how do we educate people on what their cross-bred dog is likely to do? What kind of dog education could be offered that isn't already on offer? How do you get people who think they don't need to be educated to take up the education that is on offer?

Education is largely in the hands of the people being educated, and in these cases they largely don't want to know.

I have serious doubts about education of dog owners. Yes we need to educate the community broadly about responsible dog ownership, but I don't think education alone has the potential to significantly reduce dog attacks.

You have a valid point..which then brings us back to the question which I think Poodlfan brought up in regards to if cross bred PB's or Staffies have been in more attacks than pure bred.

If it is cross bred dogs that show a significantly higher amount then there is another point in favour of banning pet shops from selling cross or designer breeds.. another thing to bring to the attention of the public if people are dedicated enough to be bothered, or can find the means to.

[ILK]

Yeah but if you don't make education compulsory how do you ensure that it happens? People don't seem to want a mandatory licensing system that would be a way of enforcing the necessary education, getting it into schools is the best way but too long term for the pollies to even consider so what's the answer?

Yes woofnhoof getting education into schools is a fab idea. They should start in primary schools, all youngters are interested in the wellbeing of animals.

It is a relevant part of life and would be a very useful subject for society in the curriculum. LOVE THAT IDEA!!

[WreckitWhippet]

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

Maybe not , but I've read some pretty idiotic things in my time on here, when it comes to dog ownership. Some have been down right stupid, dangerous and I think quite a few people here are damn lucky they have not made the news. It's been down to the power of good luck, more so than good management.

I consider myself to be an educated and responsible dog owner, I carefully manage my pack and my mind is open when it comes to learning more. Even so, we've had some near misses in this house. One involved my child and dog who was subsequently PTS, we were lucky that my daughter didn't become another bite stat. I watch the dogs and kids like a hawk, I can read a dog and to this day I still don't know what happened.

[Janba]

I WANT OWNERS TO GET EDUCATED ON THEIR BREEDS BEFORE GETTING ONE THAT IS CAPABLE OF RIPPING ONES ARM OFF!!!! hitself.gif

What breeds would these be - anything over 10 kg, a bull breed? I have 3 dogs here who I am sure would all be physically ripping my arms off if they really wanted too and they are not breeds you would probably include in your list. Your dogs are capable of inflicting serious damage to you if they so desired - give them a leg of lamb and see what happens.

How do you control education of breeds? Pure bred registered ANKC dogs are the minority in this country - about 20% of all dogs (someone correct me if I'm wrong). How do you regulate all the BYBers, puppy farmers etc?

[Janba]

I WANT OWNERS TO GET EDUCATED ON THEIR BREEDS BEFORE GETTING ONE THAT IS CAPABLE OF RIPPING ONES ARM OFF!!!! hitself.gif

What breeds would these be - anything over 10 kg, a bull breed? I have 3 dogs here who I am sure would all be physically ripping my arms off if they really wanted too and they are not breeds you would probably include in your list. Your dogs are capable of inflicting serious damage to you if they so desired - give them a leg of lamb and see what happens.

How do you control education of breeds? Pure bred registered ANKC dogs are the minority in this country - about 20% of all dogs (someone correct me if I'm wrong). How do you regulate all the BYBers, puppy farmers etc?

[HugUrPup]

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

Maybe not , but I've read some pretty idiotic things in my time on here, when it comes to dog ownership. Some have been down right stupid, dangerous and I think quite a few people here are damn lucky they have not made the news. It's been down to the power of good luck, more so than good management.

I consider myself to be an educated and responsible dog owner, I carefully manage my pack and my mind is open when it comes to learning more. Even so, we've had some near misses in this house. One involved my child and dog who was subsequently PTS, we were lucky that my daughter didn't become another bite stat. I watch the dogs and kids like a hawk, I can read a dog and to this day I still don't know what happened.

See!?!?! These things can just happen no matter who you are and how well you can read your dog. That's the reason I have a small breed.. less damage... not less likely to bite..just less damage.

I am not saying remove the risks, because people should have the right to choose. Just because I don't want to take a risk doesn't mean no-one else should.

In regards to stupid posts on DOL, for everyone who walks in uneducated, 10 walk away with more knowledge. If only there were more resources for the general public to learn about pet care.. and not through a program on TV sponsored by a pet shop either.

BTW the dog in your avatar is amazing to look at

[Jed]

Dogs which attack are dogs which have no respect for their owners.

Many dog attacks are perpetuated by dogs of unknown breeding, most of them are crossbreds - all that can be done is guess the breeding. I very much doubt that the people who bred them gave much thought to temperament or genetic influences. They realised the bitch was pregnant because she was fat!!

I suspect these dogs are bred by accident, and given, or sold cheaply to people who see the cute little pup, not the big dog needing leadership.

I don't think many of them are sold via pet shops. Maybe some are. However, there are often litters on notice boards and in the papers - and most of the crosses - if the parentage is correct - make me shudder.

The dog accords the owner no respect, and somewhere down the track, because it has spent its life getting its way, it takes the process one step too far, and someone is hurt.

Many toy breeds show little respect for their owners either - and some of the crosses are very unsuitable imho - but a toy breed probably isn't going to rip your arm off. Many chihuahuas would like to, but they aren't big enough.

Many of the larger breeds are owned by people who are frightened of them.

Most of the larger breeds are not for everyone. There are people on this forum who couldn't cope with a medium to large breed -- in fact, we have proof of that in various threads.

Unfortunately, some of these dogs, both cross and purebred, do end up in the wrong hands. Well intentioned, but wrong.

I don't think anything was mentioned about this particular dog being used for fighting was there? I got the impression he was simply a pet. And I note the breed is wavering between pitbull x and staffy x.

Whilst governments spend resources and time pointing the finger at pit bulls, nothing is done about preventing dog attacks.

I listed breeds and crosses in dog attacks in USA earlier - the breeds are different here, and it is not a "pitbull problem" in either country, it is a dog and owner problem.

Souff

Many dogs have the potential to be dangerous and when large and powerful breeds are deliberately crossed with the intention of breeding dogs that can take a person's arms off, or are trained to be aggressive towards humans and other animals, then I don't want to be aligned with the people responsible. It is a perverse form of cruelty to animals and the people who are responsible are as guilty as the dog itself when an attack like this happens.

Souff

I don't think most of the dogs who attack were deliberately bred to be able to take a persons arm off. I think most of these dogs had the potential, and as I said earlier, had no respect. It doesn't seem, from reading about these dogs, that they were deliberately bred for anything. They were just disasters waiting to happen--- probably owned by the wrong people. Until the gov stops blaming breeds for everything, and begins to see that dog attacks, and tries to discover why these attacks occur, nothing will change.

Except that more pit bulls, pit bull crosses, staffyx, and indeterminate brown dogs will unnecessarily lose their lives, or life like lions in a bad zoo.

puggerup

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

Are you SURE? There's no way of knowing.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Jed

[mantis]

Many dogs have the potential to be dangerous and when large and powerful breeds are deliberately crossed with the intention of breeding dogs that can take a person's arms off, or are trained to be aggressive towards humans and other animals, then I don't want to be aligned with the people responsible. It is a perverse form of cruelty to animals and the people who are responsible are as guilty as the dog itself when an attack like this happens.

Souff

Even more so IMO, humans have bred a dog which has the morphology which allows it to bring down a large animal on its own. The gray wolf or the village dog or whatever form of ancestral canine you prefer never had this ability, they hunted large animals in packs using slashing wounds and hounding the animal until it bled to death. Those dogs of the past would never have even tried taking down a full grown bovine, it was humans who developed the jaw and the front end of these animals which allowed them to tackle the job.

My chihuahua is agressive, but most of the time nobody cares because if he's not in anyone's face he's not a danger to anyone, the only way he might succeed in severing my arm was if I had died already and he'd had a week or so to gnaw at it.

So what we have is a combination of powerful animals and humans who no longer use them for work and therefore have little understanding of the proper management of powerful animals, and the reasons for it. Therefore controls over ownership and breeding are a logical step to take IMO.

This is the attitude that angers me, total double standards. It's OK if a little dog is an aggressive little shit, we won't try & get help for it, it's only tiny & can't cause harm, except if it attacks a baby or small child.

One of my sisters has an aggressive little shit of a Chi, it will bite anyone who gets near it except her, she also laughs about it, saying he thinks he's a big dog. I have tried trying to change it's behaviour, but my sister starts yelling at me saying I am scaring it, sure just trying to talk to it & pat it must be scary for this little bastard, it has bitten me many times. She has two daughters who are late teens & early twenties, soon they will possibly be getting married & having children, I've told both girls that when they have children, NEVER to take them to their mothers house, unless the dog is confined & can't get near their babies, they both agree.

[ILK]

Hey anyone notice that no DOL members dogs have made it on the news over their dogs seriously injuring them or anyone else?

Gee I wonder if there is a relationship between people who educate themselves when it comes to dogs and having less occurrences of dogs ripping faces off.

Maybe not , but I've read some pretty idiotic things in my time on here, when it comes to dog ownership. Some have been down right stupid, dangerous and I think quite a few people here are damn lucky they have not made the news. It's been down to the power of good luck, more so than good management.

I consider myself to be an educated and responsible dog owner, I carefully manage my pack and my mind is open when it comes to learning more. Even so, we've had some near misses in this house. One involved my child and dog who was subsequently PTS, we were lucky that my daughter didn't become another bite stat. I watch the dogs and kids like a hawk, I can read a dog and to this day I still don't know what happened.

Out of curiosity SBT123, were you watching what happened just prior to the attack or was it out of the blue? The reason I ask is because and I have mentioned this before on DOL, when I was a small child my parents Irish Setter bit my face. I rode on his back he followed me everywhere. The family were laying in the loungeroom watching tv, I was laying on the floor with the dog. He suddenly turned and bit my eyebrow (drew blood bigtime) as far as mum and dad were concerned, but I had been secretly blowing in his ear. He must of given me at least three warnings before he actually bit. My parents were talking about pts until I told them what actually happened.

[mantis]

Can't help wondering if this is achievable.

Lots of these dogs are cross-bred anyway. So how do we educate people on what their cross-bred dog is likely to do? What kind of dog education could be offered that isn't already on offer? How do you get people who think they don't need to be educated to take up the education that is on offer?

Education is largely in the hands of the people being educated, and in these cases they largely don't want to know.

I have serious doubts about education of dog owners. Yes we need to educate the community broadly about responsible dog ownership, but I don't think education alone has the potential to significantly reduce dog attacks.

You have a valid point..which then brings us back to the question which I think Poodlfan brought up in regards to if cross bred PB's or Staffies have been in more attacks than pure bred.

If it is cross bred dogs that show a significantly higher amount then there is another point in favour of banning pet shops from selling cross or designer breeds.. another thing to bring to the attention of the public if people are dedicated enough to be bothered, or can find the means to.

I don't care if a dog is a crossbreed, or a purebreed, or what size it is. Training, & learning about dog behaviour is the only answer. Over my many years, (being an old bugger), I have had many dogs, even bred & showed dogs for twenty odd years, I treat all of them the same, I am pack leader, I will give you lots of love & take care of you, but you will behave & respect me & other humans.