Womans Arm Severed By Dog

[Souff]

I do not think you can ever erase natural instinct, but I do think you can harness it and use it to your advantage.

Absolutely true.

But humans should only be breeding dogs that can be safely kept in society, not deliberately look for aggressive traits and then breed them in.

Ultimately this is to the advantage of nobody, including the dog.

But sadly there are people who are breeding aggressive dogs, for their own $ advantage.

Souff

[Sandra777]

*meh* Anne and I mention that all the time hence our preference for pugs

And it is that attitude, whether you mean it humorously or semi-seriously or not, that will sink everyone.

I have Pugs so I don't care if they ban all those "big powerful nasty dogs that are born vicious"

Oh no, now the law makers have decided my "hideously deformed Pugs" need to be banned too.

What's that old saying about hanging together or we'll surely hang separately?

[HugUrPup]

That's taken out of context.

The fact is EVERY breed has the potential to become aggressive, but if you can't handle a large breed when it goes off it's clacker, then get a pug. Seriously, if a pug decided it wanted to rip my face off, I would be able handle myself.. I'd just stand up and he wouldn't reach.

A stronger person who has trained in handling large dogs would do better in an argument with a large breed than me.... heck I can't even walk a dog over 15kg's.

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

ETA- I think Amstaff's Pit bulls and another Staffies are the most stunning looking breeds around, but I'd be fecked if I ever owned one.. it would take over my house simply because I'd be too scared to argue with it.

Edited March 24, 2010 by puggerup

[poodlefan]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

The dog was a crossbred.

Edited March 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[~Anne~]

*meh* Anne and I mention that all the time hence our preference for pugs

And it is that attitude, whether you mean it humorously or semi-seriously or not, that will sink everyone.

I have Pugs so I don't care if they ban all those "big powerful nasty dogs that are born vicious"

Oh no, now the law makers have decided my "hideously deformed Pugs" need to be banned too.

What's that old saying about hanging together or we'll surely hang separately?

THAT IS UTTER DAMN CRAP!

We each CHOOSE the breed that suits us and our lifestyles. Some of us are small dog lovers, some love the samrt ones, some love the long haired and some love the short haired.

I love the Pug becuase of its friendly and gorgeous nature. PERIOD!

For you to even insinuate that people who prefer docile, small or less powerful dogs are causing BSL to grow is pathetic.

Your post has to be the most stupid and ill thought out post I have read in a long time on here. You talk of someone who prefers a Pug as causing a divide in the dog world when your post is what causes divide.

[Guest Tess32]

That's taken out of context.

The fact is EVERY breed has the potential to become aggressive, but if you can't handle a large breed when it goes off it's clacker, then get a pug. Seriously, if a pug decided it wanted to rip my face off, I would be able handle myself.. I'd just stand up and he wouldn't reach.

A stronger person who has trained in handling large dogs would do better in an argument with a large breed than me.... heck I can't even walk a dog over 15kg's.

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Most people would not be able to defend themselves against ANY large dog intent on attacking them. Unless you're lucky and happen to have some weapon handy, which is pretty unlikely.

So in that respect, most people wouldn't be able to 'handle' a large dog being aggressive.

[HugUrPup]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

No evidence, but I dare say the way her arm was severed almost off and she was dragged around her house all in 2 minutes, she wasn't staunch.

Most people would not be able to defend themselves against ANY large dog intent on attacking them. Unless you're lucky and happen to have some weapon handy, which is pretty unlikely.

So in that respect, most people wouldn't be able to 'handle' a large dog being aggressive.

That's also crap.. people who are fit, strong and dedicated to their chosen breed will know exactly how to behave around their dog and how to treat him/her.

Not any Jo Blow should own a large strong breed such as a Pit Bull.. there needs to be criteria.. and having enough brains to learn everything about the breed and contain the dog and to make sure the dog is not a threat to the community it paramount.. yet I am not always seeing that.

An example to show it's not me just saying everyone should have a small breed:

Not everyone would handle a snoring, farting, Pug who needs to be indoors the majority of the time and needs to be fuffed over in extreme Weather (extreme for then is anything over 28 degree's ).

It would be ridiculous getting a pug if you don't want an indoor dog or dog fur all over your pretty black Gucci dress.

It's goes across the board, know your breed and make sure you are suitably matched. Don't choose a breed because it looks tuff and because in Australia guns are illegal to carry so a PB is second best for protective weapons.

*disclaimer* not everyone (especially not at DOL) get's a PB because they are tuff and make good guard dogs.. but not many people who own them are members of DOL either.

Edited March 24, 2010 by puggerup

[Guest Tess32]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

No evidence, but I dare say the way her arm was severed almost off and she was dragged around her house all in 2 minutes, she wasn't staunch.

Most people would not be able to defend themselves against ANY large dog intent on attacking them. Unless you're lucky and happen to have some weapon handy, which is pretty unlikely.

So in that respect, most people wouldn't be able to 'handle' a large dog being aggressive.

That's also crap.. people who are fit, strong and dedicated to their chosen breed will know exactly how to behave around their dog and how to treat him/her.

Not any Jo Blow should own a large strong breed such as a Pit Bull.. there needs to be criteria.. and having enough brains to learn everything about the breed and contain the dog and to make sure the dog is not a threat to the community it paramount.. yet I am not always seeing that.

An example to show it's not me just saying everyone should have a small breed:

Not everyone would handle a snoring, farting, Pug who needs to be indoors the majority of the time and needs to be fuffed over in extreme Weather (extreme for then is anything over 28 degree's ).

It would be ridiculous getting a pug if you don't want an indoor dog or dog fur all over your pretty black Gucci dress.

It's goes across the board, know your breed and make sure you are suitably matched. Don't choose a breed because it looks tuff and because in Australia guns are illegal to carry so a PB is second best for protective weapons.

A bit rude to call my post 'crap', but anyway....

You SAID 'handle' a dog that is going 'off it's clacker'. Not "how to treat this breed in general".

Now, explain how a normal person, no matter how 'fit' or 'dedicated' can handle a dog that is 'going off' and attacking?

Or did you just poorly word your post?

[mantis]

That's taken out of context.

The fact is EVERY breed has the potential to become aggressive, but if you can't handle a large breed when it goes off it's clacker, then get a pug. Seriously, if a pug decided it wanted to rip my face off, I would be able handle myself.. I'd just stand up and he wouldn't reach.

A stronger person who has trained in handling large dogs would do better in an argument with a large breed than me.... heck I can't even walk a dog over 15kg's.

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

ETA- I think Amstaff's Pit bulls and another Staffies are the most stunning looking breeds around, but I'd be fecked if I ever owned one.. it would take over my house simply because I'd be too scared to argue with it.

No thanks, I'd rather be dogless, no offence to Pugs, they just don't appeal to me. I love big boofy breeds thanks, I'm only 8kgs heavier than my boy, but going by your post I shouldn't have him.

Attitudes like yours will see the end of all big breeds, thanks for nothing, enjoy your Pugs.

[HugUrPup]

No thanks, I'd rather be dogless, no offence to Pugs, they just don't appeal to me. I love big boofy breeds thanks, I'm only 8kgs heavier than my boy, but going by your post I shouldn't have him.

Attitudes like yours will see the end of all big breeds, thanks for nothing, enjoy your Pugs.

I'm not offended, it would be ridiculous for you to get Pug because they aren't suitable for you. You have to at least be attracted to the breed to get one. I am attracted to the look of Staffies, but I know I couldn't handle one.

How well do you know your dogs and the breed? Did you get them because you like boofheads, or did you educate yourself on the breed and learn what it takes to own one and handle them so you and everyone are safe?

If so, then you have done the right thing.. the majority of the population, are not like you. DOL members are dedicated to dogs and their breeds, normal people have no idea and they are the ones who also own PB's.

Edited March 24, 2010 by puggerup

[poodlefan]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

No evidence, but I dare say the way her arm was severed almost off and she was dragged around her house all in 2 minutes, she wasn't staunch.

I'd say you've underestimated the damage a dog attack can do to any person. Once you are on the ground, the advantage lies well and truly with the dog. All you can do for the most part is endure.. fighting back makes it worse.

A motivated police dog can take down a grown man without trouble.

Edited March 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[Bindii]

I don't think anyone is saying that though. My argument is that people can not say that genetics do not play a part. It simply isn't true and it blows our arguments for whay a purebred dog is a preferred choice out of the water.

That is exactly what some posters are saying;

Edit: Sorry i forgot to answer your initial question - yes i feel that the majority of dogs that show aggression are this way because they are born that way.

Oh yes, great! So we can edit peoples posts so that it misinterprets the whole meaning, wonderful!

Actually, Huski "exactly" what i said was this:

Edit: Sorry i forgot to answer your initial question - yes i feel that the majority of dogs that show aggression are this way because they are born that way. Not only, but mostly. But yes i agree that with training they have a better chance, and with the right owner they might never be aggressive (but they are born with the tendency, so in the wrong hands it would be bad) In the same way that we all agree that no breed is bad, only the owners.

Which is, interestingly enough, very similar to what you went on to say. Only you feel that training plays the bigger part, and i feel that genetics does.

You yourself speak of how difficult it was, and how hard you worked at training the beagle instinct of sniffing out of Daisy for obedience. Why was that there? Her genetics. YES you were able to train it out of her - she is in great hands! Not every aggressive dog ends up in good hands, not every born aggressive dog is brought up to have it trained out of them. And in the same breath - YES a genetically good natured dog CAN become aggressive due to how they were brought up... but the fact is, you don't have to train aggression out of a Samoyed or a Pug or a Beagle.. because genetically they are good natured.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Bindii

[HugUrPup]

A bit rude to call my post 'crap', but anyway....

Oh sorry, it was rude, I didn't intend to be though

[HugUrPup]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

No evidence, but I dare say the way her arm was severed almost off and she was dragged around her house all in 2 minutes, she wasn't staunch.

I'd say you've underestimated the damage a dog attack can do to any person. Once you are on the ground, the advantage lies well and truly with the dog. All you can do for the most part is endure.. fighting back makes it worse.

A motivated police dog can take down a grown man without trouble.

Well perhaps then, we should be allowed to have lions and bears as pets like in Texas

[poodlefan]

Well perhaps then, we should be allowed to have lions and bears as pets like in Texas

Lions and bears have not been the subject of tens of thousands of years of domestication and selective breeding.. they are wild animals. I thank God that Australia does not allow the keeping of exotic cats as pets.. they kill quite a few folk every year in the USA.

Millions of large dogs live among us and the overwhelming majority of them will never harm anyone. Sometimes it pays to bear that in mind.

The dogs that do maim and kill have a profile .. focus on preventing those sorts of profiles developing and large dogs are as safe as any other.

[mantis]

The woman attacked in this thread was a frail 67 year old woman who probably didn't even understand the breed properly.

Where's the evidence that she was frail Puggerup?

No evidence, but I dare say the way her arm was severed almost off and she was dragged around her house all in 2 minutes, she wasn't staunch.

I'd say you've underestimated the damage a dog attack can do to any person. Once you are on the ground, the advantage lies well and truly with the dog. All you can do for the most part is endure.. fighting back makes it worse.

A motivated police dog can take down a grown man without trouble.

Well perhaps then, we should be allowed to have lions and bears as pets like in Texas

And there we have it, that's what the ignorant, uneducated idiots who are commenting on the article on the news sites are saying, great to see a fellow dog lover bringing it up. Comparing wild animals to large dogs will be the end of them.

[sandgrubber]

Great article. Deserves mention in the 'studies about dogs' thread of the General discussion'.

Might add, that Labs and GR's are often trusted too much. Kids are often wild or mean in relating to dogs. Even the most placid of dogs may bite kids in self-defense.

I wish dog-bites-kid observations were coupled with observations of kid-tortures-dog. The 'bitten kid' scenario that bothers me most is the one where kids aren't supervised. They either encourage rough play or torment the dog. The dog, after months of toleration or encouragement, finally strikes back or escalates rough play and the kid gets hurt. I was bitten in the face by an Irish Setter when I was four. I'm sure I deserved it.

Another excellent paper on the subject of dog aggression to people and which includes some discussion of breed, can be found here

Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers rate a mention. Bear in mind that breed popularity plays its part in how frequently such dogs rate in statistics.

Edited March 25, 2010 by sandgrubber

[poodlefan]

Great article. Deserves mention in the 'studies about dogs' thread of the General discussion'.

Might add, that Labs and GR's do sometimes bite kids in self-defense.

I wish dog-bites-kid observations were coupled with observations of kid-tortures-dog. The 'bitten kid' scenario that bothers me most is the one where kids aren't supervised. They either encourage rough play or torment the dog. The dog, after months of toleration or encouragement, finally strikes back or escalates rough play and the kid gets hurt. I was bitten in the face by an Irish Setter when I was four. I'm sure I deserved it.

Another excellent paper on the subject of dog aggression to people and which includes some discussion of breed, can be found here

Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers rate a mention. Bear in mind that breed popularity plays its part in how frequently such dogs rate in statistics.

Good point. I'll add it.

[Greytmate]

Cos, I am not arguing about the importance of genetics, as I have stated many times. I disagree with the posters who have said the majority of aggression is purely genetic and is not in any way influenced by environmental factors. Why place any importance on training and socializing our dogs if that is the case?

Because if you didn't put importance on those things you would be seen as a negligent dog owner. It is also an argument used by some people against breed specific legislation, so there is an ulterior motive.

But those of us who have closely observed and documented the behaviour of dozens of dogs, can see that the genetic factors are the really important thing.

Huski, you constantly use your own dogs as examples. Your husky acts like a husky and your beagle acts like a beagle. They are a product of their genetics, they are very influenced by your own mood and body language and possible experience has taught them that it is beneficial to react in a certain way to certain threats and challenges, because it has worked before.

You are to be applauded for the effort you put into training them, but if you had chosen a whippet or a pug instead of a husky, you would not have to do the same socialisation and training, and you would not see the same sort of aggression.

That may not be fair that some dog owners don't have to put as much effort in as others to have their dog behaving in a way that is acceptable, but it is true.

Those who are seeking to overturn legislation on the false basis that environment plays a bigger part than genetics are doomed to fail.

[aquaticmalamute]

I've not said once that the potential for aggression can't be inherited,

But we simply cannot blame the majority of aggression that dogs display on simply being genetics. That removes any responsibility that we have as owners to choose an appropriate breed, raise and train it properly.

I never said you did, you admit that it contributes but believe that enviroment is more to blame. (correct me if I got this wrong)

I'm saying that yes, the way the dog is brought up plays a big role - BUT you would be more successful in having a well adjusted dog if it didn't have a genetic history of aggression. Dogs with aggression in their lines need to be managed appropriately, and if allowed to express their aggressive potential by bad/lack of training and containment then you start to have problems.

At around six months old my beagle growled, snapped and bit me when I tried to remove her from the lounge (on more than one occasion).

Is this is a reflection of genetics? No, it was poor leadership on my behalf that led to my dog thinking she could lay claim on whatever she wanted and boss me around. I learned to handle her the right way - it not only never happened again, but I can pick her up and move her off whatever piece of furniture I like without any problems.

No, this is not a reflection of genetics, I agree it stems from poor leadership. With proper leadership you have taught your dog to be respectful of you, this has nothing to do with genetic aggression. It's the need for a pack leader which EVERY dog needs, regardless of genetic background. Genetic problems such as a bad temperament are quite common, but not every dog out there has temperament problems stemming for its ancestory. It's purely based on bad breeding practices. Bad temperaments can be bred out.

That said, the problem lies at the other end of the lead. People shouldn't breed dogs with bad temperaments and place them in the average 'pet home' with people who have no clue how to manage a dog who is potentially a ticking time bomb.

Then I'd assume that means you won't breed from your dog?

You assume correctly There is now way in hell I want another one of him gracing this earth. Yes, he is 1/3 of his way to his grand championship but no, this does not mean he is worth breeding from - conformationally he is lovely, all bar his short upper arm however movement is not affected as he has wonderful reach and a solid topline. He has enquieries from breeders to use him, but he is not available for stud. They have been given semen from his uncle to use, who has a great temperament.