Labrador Breeders

[poodlefan]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Too many assumptions made in this thread....l

And one of them has been made by you. Read the posts SaS. Those colour breeders 'being dissed' are those who are NOT doing the breed justice. I have not seen a post that suggests all Chocolate Labs are shite and all those breeding them are dodgy. What this has to do with merle Danes I don't know but I'd not make the same suggestion there either. However from your responses to my posts here and in another thread yesterday, it seems you've concluded that I've insulted you or your dog.

This is what I have said in this thread. Please show me how it even vaguely suggests that I think all breeders of chocolate Labs (and to draw the analogy, merle Great Danes) are dodgy:

What I object to is when a fashionable colour becomes the primary goal of breeders who breed to fill that demand. And that's because they compromise on breed quality to do it. In essence they cash in on breed reputation established by others but do nothing to contribute to maintaining or improving it. When that colour can have health implications or is a breed fault, its downright unethical IMO.

There are colour breeders amongst Labrador breeders as there among a range of breeds. For the most part, breeding for colour sees a lot of other desireable characteristics given lesser priority. That's hardly a head start in the search to find a good Labrador.

There have been some highly regarded and established breeders take on producing quality in a colour before.

There will always be exceptional breeders who choose to focus on developing and improving a particular feature of a breed. The trick is trying to steer puppy buyers away from the profiteers and towards the pioneers. The penalty is, as you suggest, long waiting times. And some folk just won't wait

Edited April 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[RallyValley]

In Chessies we allow silver (we call it ash) but because they aren't a popular pet breed and good breeders steer away from it because it can create pigment problems the colour has nearly died out. Sometimes I think popular breeds have such a great burden, having to cater to the public demand and put up with exploitation by BYBers. Brown as we call it is the most common Chessie colour and dominant in both the show ring and field (and genetically).

[sandgrubber]

I don't understand why pedigree dog people are so meddlesome. This scene will sort itself out in time cause the flood of chocos brought on by inflated prices will end out depressing the price and the 'bad' breeders who are breeding for colour alone will cop in in the wallet. The people who have invested in quality chocos will still have quality dogs and will be much better placed to weather the storm.

I don't worship the market mechanism. My masters thesis was a full blown attack on the assumption of consumer rationality . . .which is essential to the arguments that the market leads to ideal solutions. But in this case, I'm pretty confident that market mechanisms will check the choco fad and result in a pretty good, if not optimum, result.

I prefer blacks. The great thing about Labrador colour genetics is that black is dominant, so whatever you have, you can always go back to all black in the next litter . . . all you need to do is find a quality dominant black dog.

[sas]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Sas, perhaps being involved with the breed would give you a clearer insight into the issues. I would suspect that there are far more breeders out there breeding chocolate labs for their colour than there are breeding them for their quality. If you know the show scene and look through the lists of breeders it becomes clear that a lot of breeders that fit into this category do not show their dogs (nor does anybody else). There are a handful of fine breeders who breed chocolates and are doing a wonderful job of improving the standard of them in Australia. Miss Monaro is one of them and so are many of the other breeders who have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately for every "good" breeder there are many out there who are mating two chocolate dogs with no real regard for breed type. I guess that does generate an attitude within people who associate with the breed but at this stage I believe that those who are doing the right thing by the colour are proving themselves enormously, particularly in recent years.

Thanks, Labs were my breed before Danes....for 20 years

[sas]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Too many assumptions made in this thread....l

And one of them has been made by you. Read the posts SaS. Those colour breeders 'being dissed' are those who are NOT doing the breed justice. I have not seen a post that suggests all Chocolate Labs are shite and all those breeding them are dodgy. What this has to do with merle Danes I don't know but I'd not make the same suggestion there either. However from your responses to my posts here and in another thread yesterday, it seems you've concluded that I've insulted you or your dog.

This is what I have said in this thread. Please show me how it even vaguely suggests that I think all breeders of chocolate Labs (and to draw the analogy, merle Great Danes) are dodgy:

Oh dear lord! What you just quoted wasn't even addressed to you, it was a general comment to those who thought it appropriate to dis people who prefer to breed Chocolates.

Read what you typed initially, maybe you didn't mean for it to be interpreted the way it was.

I certainly would be wary of a breeder with that colour in their prefix.

That wasn't fair, because you're suggesting people should stay about from all those Breeders, you can't say all those breeders who that colour in their prefix are all dodgy and people should be wary of them.

Who said anything about merle great danes?

Insulted my dog? What are you talking about!?

LOL I seriously don't get your posts.

Edited April 23, 2010 by sas

[macka]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Too many assumptions made in this thread....l

And one of them has been made by you. Read the posts SaS. Those colour breeders 'being dissed' are those who are NOT doing the breed justice. I have not seen a post that suggests all Chocolate Labs are shite and all those breeding them are dodgy. What this has to do with merle Danes I don't know but I'd not make the same suggestion there either. However from your responses to my posts here and in another thread yesterday, it seems you've concluded that I've insulted you or your dog.

This is what I have said in this thread. Please show me how it even vaguely suggests that I think all breeders of chocolate Labs (and to draw the analogy, merle Great Danes) are dodgy:

Oh dear lord! What you just quoted wasn't even addressed to you, it was a general comment to those who thought it appropriate to dis people who prefer to breed Chocolates.

Read what you typed initially, maybe you didn't mean for it to be interpreted the way it was.

I certainly would be wary of a breeder with that colour in their prefix.

That wasn't fair, because you're suggesting people should stay about from all those Breeders, you can't say all those breeders who that colour in their prefix are all dodgy and people should be wary of them.

Who said anything about merle great danes?

Insulted my dog? What are you talking about!?

LOL I seriously don't get your posts.

I don't see what's wrong with recommending somebody "be wary of a breeder with that colour in their prefix."

I would be wary too.

Being "wary" doesn't equate to assuming all breeders with that colour in their prefix are dodgy and breeding inferior dogs. It just means proceed with caution, making sure the breeder has the best interests of the breed in mind.

[poodlefan]

Who said anything about merle great danes?

Insulted my dog? What are you talking about!?

LOL I seriously don't get your posts.

If you don't get them, then ask me to explain. I'll be happy to as I did when you queried my assertions about differing breed body language yesterday.

I thought you had personalised issues relating to colour breeding because you wrote this:

I'm sick of hearing people dis Breeders who bred dogs of colours that are highly sort after, in this case it's chocolate, a colour that is accepted in the ring so therefore included in the breed standard and there are plenty of Breeders who do this colour justice.

I own of dog which is a highly sort after colour that plenty of shonkly breeders bred but there are many of wonderful breeders of this colour as well.

You linked your dog to "people who dis Breeders" who colour breed. Seemed to me you were relating this topic to your own situation.

lAnyhoo.. moving on.

Edited April 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[RubyStar]

What I personally dislike about threads like these, is that even though I realise part of the conversation is not aimed at the pet owners but about the "bad breeders" and the badly bred dogs they are producing, not very often people stop to think that this can be offensive to the pet owners who own and love these dogs some of you are saying are "ugly" and don't even look like Labradors. Trying to do the right thing, I sourced my first Lab (Ruby the yellow) from a registered, ethical breeder who has had many successes in the show ring, including with her litter sister and her offspring (10 Best in Group this year alone for one dog ain't bad?) No my Lab isn't show quality, but she is not from some BYB who has no regard for Labrador type. I feel like my yellow Lab is judged badly because she isn't heavy set and as someone mentioned, has light eyes that make them want to wash their eyes out with bleach looking at eyes like that (no they didn't say it directly about my dog but after reading that comment, I looked at Ruby and felt awful at how easily she could be judged by comments like that). Every time I consider getting into showing one day, it's reminders like these that talks me out of it. I just don't have a thick enough skin for all the criticism

Edited April 23, 2010 by RubyStar

[poodlefan]

What I personally dislike about threads like these, is that even though I realise part of the conversation is not aimed at the pet owners but about the "bad breeders" and the badly bred dogs they are producing, not very often people stop to think that this can be offensive to the pet owners who own and love these dogs some of you are saying are "ugly" and don't even look like Labradors. Trying to do the right thing, I sourced my first Lab (Ruby the yellow) from a registered, ethical breeder who has had many successes in the show ring, including with her litter sister and her offspring (10 Best in Group this year alone for one dog ain't bad?) No my Lab isn't show quality, but she is not from some BYB who has no regard for Labrador type. I feel like my yellow Lab is judged badly because she isn't heavy set and as someone mentioned, has light eyes that make them want to wash their eyes out with bleach looking at eyes like that (no they didn't say it directly about my dog but after reading that comment, I looked at Ruby and felt awful at how easily she could be judged by comments like that). Every time I consider getting into showing one day, it's reminders like these that talks me out of it. I just don't have a thick enough skin for all the criticism

You'll get just as much criticism of your dog and its breed down the local dog park as you do in the show ring. I've never had my poodles referred to as "poofy" or "neurotic" at a show. :D

It's just average people RS... good and bad, arseholes and angels. You don't need a thick skin.. a sense of humour and a sense of proportion will do just fine.

[Baby Dragon]

I personally feel that working ability is much more important than looks.

[RubyStar]

What I personally dislike about threads like these, is that even though I realise part of the conversation is not aimed at the pet owners but about the "bad breeders" and the badly bred dogs they are producing, not very often people stop to think that this can be offensive to the pet owners who own and love these dogs some of you are saying are "ugly" and don't even look like Labradors. Trying to do the right thing, I sourced my first Lab (Ruby the yellow) from a registered, ethical breeder who has had many successes in the show ring, including with her litter sister and her offspring (10 Best in Group this year alone for one dog ain't bad?) No my Lab isn't show quality, but she is not from some BYB who has no regard for Labrador type. I feel like my yellow Lab is judged badly because she isn't heavy set and as someone mentioned, has light eyes that make them want to wash their eyes out with bleach looking at eyes like that (no they didn't say it directly about my dog but after reading that comment, I looked at Ruby and felt awful at how easily she could be judged by comments like that). Every time I consider getting into showing one day, it's reminders like these that talks me out of it. I just don't have a thick enough skin for all the criticism

You'll get just as much criticism of your dog and its breed down the local dog park as you do in the show ring. I've never had my poodles referred to as "poofy" or "neurotic" at a show.

It's just average people RS... good and bad, arseholes and angels. You don't need a thick skin.. a sense of humour and a sense of proportion will do just fine.

Even down at the local park, I get "is she part Labrador?" because of her size :D But I think that is mostly down to public ignorance, only knowing what a fat Lab looks like that the general public usually own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think she is beautiful, even though breeders and judges don't agree :D If I do get into showing one day, one thing I know for sure, is it's not going to be in Labradors. Not because I don't believe the same bias comes into all breeds, but because the type of Labrador I prefer is not the type for the showring sadly.

[macka]

What I personally dislike about threads like these, is that even though I realise part of the conversation is not aimed at the pet owners but about the "bad breeders" and the badly bred dogs they are producing, not very often people stop to think that this can be offensive to the pet owners who own and love these dogs some of you are saying are "ugly" and don't even look like Labradors. Trying to do the right thing, I sourced my first Lab (Ruby the yellow) from a registered, ethical breeder who has had many successes in the show ring, including with her litter sister and her offspring (10 Best in Group this year alone for one dog ain't bad?) No my Lab isn't show quality, but she is not from some BYB who has no regard for Labrador type. I feel like my yellow Lab is judged badly because she isn't heavy set and as someone mentioned, has light eyes that make them want to wash their eyes out with bleach looking at eyes like that (no they didn't say it directly about my dog but after reading that comment, I looked at Ruby and felt awful at how easily she could be judged by comments like that). Every time I consider getting into showing one day, it's reminders like these that talks me out of it. I just don't have a thick enough skin for all the criticism

Try not to take comments about "badly bred" labs personally, Rubystar. While saying some labs make you want to wash your eyes out with bleach may be a little OTT, I think where those sorts of comments come from is a deep love of the breed and a strong desire to see the breed improve in quality, and perhaps some frustration at some of the breeders out there who aren't trying hard enough, or whose heart is in the wrong place ($$$).

Even breeders can't tell which puppies are going to turn into champions, and many "show prospects" end up being re-homed down the track because they just don't make the cut.

Like you, I went to what I consider to be an ethical registered breeder to get my boy, and I hope he turns out to be a nice example of the breed as that would validate my breeder's hard work and efforts! But in the end, it really doesn't matter to me as I am going to love him regardless and he won't be doing any breeding anyway.

[poodlefan]

Even down at the local park, I get "is she part Labrador?" because of her size But I think that is mostly down to public ignorance, only knowing what a fat Lab looks like that the general public usually own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think she is beautiful, even though breeders and judges don't agree If I do get into showing one day, one thing I know for sure, is it's not going to be in Labradors. Not because I don't believe the same bias comes into all breeds, but because the type of Labrador I prefer is not the type for the showring sadly.

Make sure you get another breed you really want to live with then.. (Flatcoat? Cheasapeke?) because if your pup fails to develop into a good show dog, you'll still have a dog you love to own.

[RubyStar]

Even down at the local park, I get "is she part Labrador?" because of her size But I think that is mostly down to public ignorance, only knowing what a fat Lab looks like that the general public usually own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think she is beautiful, even though breeders and judges don't agree If I do get into showing one day, one thing I know for sure, is it's not going to be in Labradors. Not because I don't believe the same bias comes into all breeds, but because the type of Labrador I prefer is not the type for the showring sadly.

Make sure you get another breed you really want to live with then.. (Flatcoat? Cheasapeke?) because if your pup fails to develop into a good show dog, you'll still have a dog you love to own.

I already have my next breed picked out and can't WAIT!! :D I'm not fussed if my dog isn't a show winning one, my primary love is obedience and agility (where thankfully only working ability comes into it!), the showing thing was just a "maybe" thing to see what it was like.

[RallyValley]

Even down at the local park, I get "is she part Labrador?" because of her size :D But I think that is mostly down to public ignorance, only knowing what a fat Lab looks like that the general public usually own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think she is beautiful, even though breeders and judges don't agree :D If I do get into showing one day, one thing I know for sure, is it's not going to be in Labradors. Not because I don't believe the same bias comes into all breeds, but because the type of Labrador I prefer is not the type for the showring sadly.

I would prefer someone call me ugly then Lincoln The general public know nothing about dogs, at dog shows people even fail to recognse Lincoln' breed and compliment me on Curly Coat or look at me strange becase they think I brought a xbreed down to a show! Yet I have had two people ask if they can use my "Red Cloud Kelpie" (really a kelpie/stafford x) at stud!

I have to say some common breeds (Labs, Staffords and BC's come to mind) everybody in the world seems to be an expert on and able to judge, freely giving thier opinions to you whether you asked for it or not!

[RubyStar]

What I personally dislike about threads like these, is that even though I realise part of the conversation is not aimed at the pet owners but about the "bad breeders" and the badly bred dogs they are producing, not very often people stop to think that this can be offensive to the pet owners who own and love these dogs some of you are saying are "ugly" and don't even look like Labradors. Trying to do the right thing, I sourced my first Lab (Ruby the yellow) from a registered, ethical breeder who has had many successes in the show ring, including with her litter sister and her offspring (10 Best in Group this year alone for one dog ain't bad?) No my Lab isn't show quality, but she is not from some BYB who has no regard for Labrador type. I feel like my yellow Lab is judged badly because she isn't heavy set and as someone mentioned, has light eyes that make them want to wash their eyes out with bleach looking at eyes like that (no they didn't say it directly about my dog but after reading that comment, I looked at Ruby and felt awful at how easily she could be judged by comments like that). Every time I consider getting into showing one day, it's reminders like these that talks me out of it. I just don't have a thick enough skin for all the criticism

Try not to take comments about "badly bred" labs personally, Rubystar. While saying some labs make you want to wash your eyes out with bleach may be a little OTT, I think where those sorts of comments come from is a deep love of the breed and a strong desire to see the breed improve in quality, and perhaps some frustration at some of the breeders out there who aren't trying hard enough, or whose heart is in the wrong place ($$$).

Even breeders can't tell which puppies are going to turn into champions, and many "show prospects" end up being re-homed down the track because they just don't make the cut.

Like you, I went to what I consider to be an ethical registered breeder to get my boy, and I hope he turns out to be a nice example of the breed as that would validate my breeder's hard work and efforts! But in the end, it really doesn't matter to me as I am going to love him regardless and he won't be doing any breeding anyway.

Thanks, macka. Yes I do realise this, but I don't think those who say these things stop to think that it might actually offend the pet owners who wear rose coloured glasses (who love their dogs just as much!), when I know their gripe is actually with the breeders.

Edited April 23, 2010 by RubyStar

[sas]

Who said anything about merle great danes?

Insulted my dog? What are you talking about!?

LOL I seriously don't get your posts.

If you don't get them, then ask me to explain. I'll be happy to as I did when you queried my assertions about differing breed body language yesterday.

I thought you had personalised issues relating to colour breeding because you wrote this:

I'm sick of hearing people dis Breeders who bred dogs of colours that are highly sort after, in this case it's chocolate, a colour that is accepted in the ring so therefore included in the breed standard and there are plenty of Breeders who do this colour justice.

I own of dog which is a highly sort after colour that plenty of shonkly breeders bred but there are many of wonderful breeders of this colour as well.

You linked your dog to "people who dis Breeders" who colour breed. Seemed to me you were relating this topic to your own situation.

lAnyhoo.. moving on.

You are the funniest person I think I've ever come across on this forum!

[blacklabrador]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Sas, perhaps being involved with the breed would give you a clearer insight into the issues. I would suspect that there are far more breeders out there breeding chocolate labs for their colour than there are breeding them for their quality. If you know the show scene and look through the lists of breeders it becomes clear that a lot of breeders that fit into this category do not show their dogs (nor does anybody else). There are a handful of fine breeders who breed chocolates and are doing a wonderful job of improving the standard of them in Australia. Miss Monaro is one of them and so are many of the other breeders who have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately for every "good" breeder there are many out there who are mating two chocolate dogs with no real regard for breed type. I guess that does generate an attitude within people who associate with the breed but at this stage I believe that those who are doing the right thing by the colour are proving themselves enormously, particularly in recent years.

Thanks, Labs were my breed before Danes....for 20 years

You're welcome and if you've been involved with breeding and showing then you'll know exactly what I mean.