Labrador Breeders

[RubyStar]

Interesting discussion. I own a chocolate Lab but not because I wanted to jump on the colour bandwagon, she came to me as a rescue dog. I originally wanted another yellow puppy but fate brought her to me instead. She must be poorly bred, she has the pink nose/eye rims/lips, so it must look like I went out and got myself a poorly bred choc pup because I wanted to jump on this so called bandwagon. Doesn't mean I love her any less and I think she's beautiful. If I had gone the puppy route instead of adult rescue, I definitely wouldn't have bought a choc pup. I don't find the colour that fantastic that will justify me going on a longer than usual wait list and paying prime $$ for that privilege. Give me a yellow anyday! And yes, yellow are my preference, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a preference as one of these "pet" buyers.

Everyone has preferences RS. I like the yellows too. But buying a dog when a less common colour becomes your primary requirement means waiting or compromise.

What I object to is when a fashionable colour becomes the primary goal of breeders who breed to fill that demand. And that's because they compromise on breed quality to do it. In essence they cash in on breed reputation established by others but do nothing to contribute to maintaining or improving it. When that colour can have health implications or is a breed fault, its downright unethical IMO.

Completely agree. If the colour I was dead set on meant waiting for a good quality one, I'd do it. But if the colour didn't mean as much, then I wouldn't let it be my primary focus.

[zenchel]

What I object to is when a fashionable colour becomes the primary goal of breeders who breed to fill that demand. And that's because they compromise on breed quality to do it. In essence they cash in on breed reputation established by others but do nothing to contribute to maintaining or improving it. When that colour can have health implications or is a breed fault, its downright unethical IMO.

Absolutely. I have just done the calculations on the Dogzonline puppy listings, as of today:

26% are all choc litters

24% are all yellow litters

14% are all black litters

8% are choc/black litters

2% are choc/yellow litters

16% are black/yellow litters

10% are three colour litters

That means 46% of all litters have some choc pups in them.

10% of litters are deliberately bred with the knowledge that the yellows in them may have liver points, not acceptable in the standard.

24% of these breeders advertise as being involved in some form of discipline with their dogs e.g. show, obed, field work etc.

That means 76% of them probably don't take part in any formalised activity with their dogs.

9% of the breeders advertising chocolates state that they take part in some formalised activity.

That means 91% of breeders advertising chocolates don't.

I do not believe that in those 26% choc x choc litters that the choc stud dog chosen was the most suitable and complementary mate for the bitch that was available to the breeder. I do believe the choc stud was chosen solely because the combination would produce all brown dogs.

These breeders' ads make all the claims under the sun about the "quality" of their pups - if the breeders have never tested their dogs against others in the conformation ring or working arena, how do they measure their quality? How do they know what is "quality" if they have never studied the breed standard or read of the history of the breed and the bloodlines that they are taking vicarious advantage of. Yes, they are all hip and elbow scored, mostly with acceptable scores, but do these breeders know what genetic issues are lurking behind these dogs? Most have one parent with a DNA PRA clearance, but precious few advertise up to date eye clearances.

And the prices ;)

That's enough of a rant - just wanted to point out how true the old maxim is "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

Sylvia

[poodlefan]

Current SBT litter listings:

No of litters advertised: 89

No of litters advertising blue pups: 25

No of breeders with Blu or Blue in their prefix: 14

No of blue pup advertisements from parents with no titles: 19

So over 28% of litter ads have blue pups.

Over 50% of those breeders have that colour in their prefix

76% of the blue litters appear to be from untitled dogs.

Not that anyone who "has" to have a blue Stafford is going to give a damn. But the fact is that its the "blue or bust" attitude that's fuelling this.

[sandgrubber]

Colour and taste are basically irrational. But ask anyone in fashion about the colour purple. Sometimes everybody wants it, sometimes no one will buy it. When it's in, you can up the price, but eventually you'll end up with overstock and have to sell at discount. so goes chocolate in Labs. Breeders in Australia have tended to discriminate against chocolate, or at least, not deliberately work on the colour. The public has taken a fancy to the colour. People looking for chocos in WA call breeder-to-breeder, driving everyone nuts cause most breeders don't have any chocos or get one or two a year. Really annoying situation. There isn't a decent choco stud dog in WA (hopefully that is about to change).

As someone who has spent decades doing assessment work of various sorts, I have little respect for the show ring. Time consuming. Not transparent. Too political, too dependent on handling skills. Puts off newcomers. The most important thing, if you want to get a dog titled, is to show up at lots of show and know who will be showing in which class so as to place the dog where it will get a blue. I'd be happy to participate in a system where there is an objective scoring against a documented standard . . . so you get . . . say 85 out of 100 points for a good but not great dog . . . and you have a score to locate the faults. And all the gossip and back biting. Jeezus k'rist. Sounds like petty nobility of the 19th century trying to sort out what girl to sell off to what noble vs wealthy industrial family. Weak on substance.

I'm about to aggravate the persistent puppy shortage -- most acute for chocos -- in WA by moving back to the USA, selling two brood bitches interstate and taking my old girl and two promising pups with me. . . all chocos. That will significantly reduce the number of pups available to the crowd wanting chocos in WA (when you count ads on DOL, please take the time to consider how many (ie, few) are listed in WA. You wouldn't believe how many calls I get for choco pups. . . .sometimes three or four calls a day when I have no pups advertised and none expected. It'll be great to be in a place where there's less of a premium for that colour and I can go back to black, which is which I prefer, without ending out with the occasional puppy that doesn't sell by eight weeks. The pressure from the constant stream of phone calls is enough to sway a decision when a girl comes on season. What do you do . . . look for the best boy you can find and pay for AI . . . and go choco. I am glad that several well credentialed choco boys have been imported into Oz and am happy to use them.

Bottom line. Australian Lab breeders created an unbalanced situation by many decades of avoiding chocolate. No point winging about people breeding up choco's. Yes, there are some ugly chocolates coming out of the fad. But I run a boarding kennel . . . you can't tell me that there aren't some ugly yellows as well (ugly blacks seem less common, but maybe I'm prejudiced in favour of blacks).

UK and North American breeders don't seem to have been as biased against chocos. The myth about chocolate-to-chocolate breedings being a problem has worsened things. (There is NO evidence to support this belief. If you breed a choco to a black with light eye colour you're very likely to get pups with light eye colour . .. nose and eye ring colour similar. A choco X choco mating where both parents have good eye/nose colour will produce good pigmentation.) I am grateful to people importing chocolates.

Go ahead and carp about inflated puppy prices and complain about people avoiding the show ring. It will all come out in the wash. I'll be willing to bet that, given the boost that high prices have given chocolate lines in recent years, the number of chocolate dogs/bitches doing well in the show ring will increase over 2010 to 2020 and the price situation will normalise (ie, the colour premium will vanish). Chocos, in general, will do fine (compared to other colours) in health tests and they will be normal or better with respect to temperament.

Note, a non-titled chocolate UK import took BIS in the 50th anniversary Lab specialty show in NZ last year [he may have been titled since]. You people chasing stats . . . have a go at counting the number of choco Ch's in Oz and how it has changed over the last few years. I think you'll find an interesting trend .. and it's just the beginning of an upswing.

Edited April 22, 2010 by sandgrubber

[mikelli]

This thread seems to have gone slightly off topic....but I will say that hopefully it makes people aware that they can find quality puppies from breeders who are not out there to make a quick buck....

My favourits saying is "Every home should have a labrador (or two)" and in my opinion breeders who constantly bump the prices up because of the "demand" are putting quality puppies out of the reach of most families....and that is where the happiest labradors live, with families.....

If I want to buy a dog to improve the blood lines in my kennel I will (and expect to) have to pay top dollar, I would go to a kennel "with runs on the board" and a vast knowledge of the bloodlines in their kennel to seek advice in the hope that they would sell me a sound dog that fits what I am looking for......however if I was looking for a lovely lab to live with me and sleep on my lounge I certainly would not expect to have to pay the prices that are being asked in most places these days. In My very Humble Opinion I believe that the higher you put your prices the more puppy buyers you "force" to go to Back Yard Breeders......

I can remember the days when all I wanted was a labrador and we could not afford one, I hope that by keeping my prices as low as I can more families can enjoy the absolute joy of having a labrador and can also get a dog that has been health tested and recieves some follow up over the years of the dogs life if they wish to keep in touch.....

[mikelli]

This thread seems to have gone slightly off topic....but I will say that hopefully it makes people aware that they can find quality puppies from breeders who are not out there to make a quick buck....

My favourits saying is "Every home should have a labrador (or two)" and in my opinion breeders who constantly bump the prices up because of the "demand" are putting quality puppies out of the reach of most families....and that is where the happiest labradors live, with families.....

If I want to buy a dog to improve the blood lines in my kennel I will (and expect to) have to pay top dollar, I would go to a kennel "with runs on the board" and a vast knowledge of the bloodlines in their kennel to seek advice in the hope that they would sell me a sound dog that fits what I am looking for......however if I was looking for a lovely lab to live with me and sleep on my lounge I certainly would not expect to have to pay the prices that are being asked in most places these days. In My very Humble Opinion I believe that the higher you put your prices the more puppy buyers you "force" to go to Back Yard Breeders......

I can remember the days when all I wanted was a labrador and we could not afford one, I hope that by keeping my prices as low as I can more families can enjoy the absolute joy of having a labrador and can also get a dog that has been health tested and recieves some follow up over the years of the dogs life if they wish to keep in touch.....

ETA Unfortunately it is not only chocolate labradors that are being bred without regard to standard and health testing, there are a lot of yellows and blacks out there that are far from what I would call "quality" litters....sometimes it is actually hard to tell that they are labradors.....

[blackdog]

Hello all - it's been ages since I last contributed to this forum.

But a fellow DOLer convinced me to drag myself away from FB long enough to follow this thread.

It seems to me that nobody will win this current debate regarding Chocolate labs - and so be it.

The one ingredient that has been missed in the discussion thus far is type - breed type.

And breed type means different things to different people.

To quote MRW - "A labrador should look like a Labrador and nothing else".

If a breeder/exhibitor can't find or plan a litter that at least retains THEIR breed type before all else then why do it?

It's like shoving a Picasso together with a Van Gough and expecting to get anything better than a Grade 3 crayon drawing.

So it matters little (if at all) whether "big bucks" have been spent importing stock from every corner of the globe.

It is certainly no guarantee of success - if the dogs and bitches don't click what's been the point?

And the only ones who get fooled by all of the hype are the unsuspecting puppy buyers (or novice breeders).

They forget (or conveniently overlook the fact) that at the end of the day the real value of a dog or bitch is quality of it's get.

I would breed a chocolate litter in an instant if I felt that I could retain my kennel "type".

And when I do breed a litter (the last was 18 months ago) I am not just considering a single dog or bitch (the parents).

I am assessing the strengths and weaknesses of an entire family of Labradors.

I do hope that Sandgrubber is correct when she suggests that over the next 10 years the quality of Choc labs will improve significantly.

We should all hope for the same thing - the same as we all hope the quality of our Blacks and Yellows is maintained and improves.

See you all in Sydney for the 2020 Labrador National.

It will be the place to judge whether Sandgrubber has been correct with her crystal ball gazing.

[Mas1981]

This thread seems to have gone slightly off topic....but I will say that hopefully it makes people aware that they can find quality puppies from breeders who are not out there to make a quick buck....

My favourits saying is "Every home should have a labrador (or two)" and in my opinion breeders who constantly bump the prices up because of the "demand" are putting quality puppies out of the reach of most families....and that is where the happiest labradors live, with families.....

If I want to buy a dog to improve the blood lines in my kennel I will (and expect to) have to pay top dollar, I would go to a kennel "with runs on the board" and a vast knowledge of the bloodlines in their kennel to seek advice in the hope that they would sell me a sound dog that fits what I am looking for......however if I was looking for a lovely lab to live with me and sleep on my lounge I certainly would not expect to have to pay the prices that are being asked in most places these days. In My very Humble Opinion I believe that the higher you put your prices the more puppy buyers you "force" to go to Back Yard Breeders......

I can remember the days when all I wanted was a labrador and we could not afford one, I hope that by keeping my prices as low as I can more families can enjoy the absolute joy of having a labrador and can also get a dog that has been health tested and recieves some follow up over the years of the dogs life if they wish to keep in touch.....

I agree 100% with you, as a non breeding non showing member of the public there is no way I would pay $1800 for a puppy no matter what the colour. Its not that I am cheap and IMO my dog has a lovely happy home, he only has the best, he has medical insurance, gets new toys, collars etc all the time but I would just never pay that price for a pup. I was happy to pay what I did for my pup because he has a beautiful nature and he is very handsome plus I know his parents were health tested.

[Joan of Arc]

Hello all - it's been ages since I last contributed to this forum.

But a fellow DOLer convinced me to drag myself away from FB long enough to follow this thread.

It seems to me that nobody will win this current debate regarding Chocolate labs - and so be it.

The one ingredient that has been missed in the discussion thus far is type - breed type.

And breed type means different things to different people.

To quote MRW - "A labrador should look like a Labrador and nothing else".

If a breeder/exhibitor can't find or plan a litter that at least retains THEIR breed type before all else then why do it?

It's like shoving a Picasso together with a Van Gough and expecting to get anything better than a Grade 3 crayon drawing.

So it matters little (if at all) whether "big bucks" have been spent importing stock from every corner of the globe.

It is certainly no guarantee of success - if the dogs and bitches don't click what's been the point?

And the only ones who get fooled by all of the hype are the unsuspecting puppy buyers (or novice breeders).

They forget (or conveniently overlook the fact) that at the end of the day the real value of a dog or bitch is quality of it's get.

I would breed a chocolate litter in an instant if I felt that I could retain my kennel "type".

And when I do breed a litter (the last was 18 months ago) I am not just considering a single dog or bitch (the parents).

I am assessing the strengths and weaknesses of an entire family of Labradors.

I do hope that Sandgrubber is correct when she suggests that over the next 10 years the quality of Choc labs will improve significantly.

We should all hope for the same thing - the same as we all hope the quality of our Blacks and Yellows is maintained and improves.

See you all in Sydney for the 2020 Labrador National.

It will be the place to judge whether Sandgrubber has been correct with her crystal ball gazing.

;)

I have nothing to add except to support the comments of Mikelli and Blackdog. I have waited a long time for my next litter and have relied on the depth of experience of two wonderful mentors to ensure I have sufficient knowledge of the 'family' of the dam and the sire. I wish to maintain 'type' never lose the wonderful temperement my girl has and while I am aware that at least one of the dogs carries choc, I am not concerned if the other doesnt.

I could not possibly select a breeding partner for my girl based on colour alone, no more than select a breeding partner for my son based on the woman's colour.

The proof of the pudding is always in the eating - good lines from good lines produce good lines -total outcrosses with very little understanding of type, temperement and family achieve little for the breed and benefit very few - particularly unsuspecting puppy buyers.

[Joan of Arc]

And just to add a little further

A buyers ability to pay excessive $$$ for a puppy doesnt necessarily equate to their ability to care for a puppy.

[Mas1981]

And just to add a little further

A buyers ability to pay excessive $$$ for a puppy doesnt necessarily equate to their ability to care for a puppy.

I agree and just because they pay so much more for a pup it doesnt mean that they would love it more or spend more time with it because it cost them a lot of money.

[mikelli]

Go ahead and carp about inflated puppy prices and complain about people avoiding the show ring. It will all come out in the wash. I'll be willing to bet that, given the boost that high prices have given chocolate lines in recent years, the number of chocolate dogs/bitches doing well in the show ring will increase over 2010 to 2020 and the price situation will normalise (ie, the colour premium will vanish). Chocos, in general, will do fine (compared to other colours) in health tests and they will be normal or better with respect to temperament.

It certainly is not unusual for chocolate labradors to do well in the show ring, in fact on two occasions in the 1980's a chocolate labrador took out Best in Show at the Labrador Club of Qld. A well respected breeder of chocolate labradors (also breeds quality blacks and yellows) has titled at least twenty chocolate labradors in the show ring and also has numerous titles in field and obedience trials......we are well used to seeing quality chocolates in our state and have done for many years......

We can only hope that we see a lot more chocolates being shown and titled this can only help to strengthen the breed in general.....along side the yellows and blacks, after all it is the same breed we are talking about, the colour is irrelivant.......as blackdog stated as long as the breed type is maintained in the process....

Edited April 22, 2010 by mikelli

[blacklabrador]

Although I am very partial to black labrador, the most important thing when I look at a dog is how well it fits the standard. I see SO many terribly bred labradors on the beach and at the dog park and it's such a shame. I love yellows too but the narrow headed, light eyed variety that I see around just make me want to scrub my eyeballs with bleach. Too many backyard breeders and puppy farmers around getting hold of labradors and turning them into something unrecognisable.

[sas]

What's being discussed here is why many many poodle folk are wary of allowing particolours to upgraded from a disqualifying fault in the standards.

There are already folk advertising "rare" phantom markings (and they ain't rare at all) for $$$$ and people falling for it.

Imagine the circus if partis get back in. Most poodle folk admire a good one but worry about what might happen to the standard of dogs if flashy markings become fashionable.

No.....they're discussing Chocolate Labradors...

[macka]

What's being discussed here is why many many poodle folk are wary of allowing particolours to upgraded from a disqualifying fault in the standards.

There are already folk advertising "rare" phantom markings (and they ain't rare at all) for $$$$ and people falling for it.

Imagine the circus if partis get back in. Most poodle folk admire a good one but worry about what might happen to the standard of dogs if flashy markings become fashionable.

No.....they're discussing Chocolate Labradors...

I think what PF meant is that the current situation with Choc Labs is relevant to the issue of partis in poodles in the sense that if they were allowed, the poodle breed would face similar issues of breeders breeding for colour rather than quality.

[MissMonaro]

I'd run a mile from someone who bred for colour or sold certain colours for more than others...

Certainly Choc Labs, which are neither rare or unusual!

I certainly would be wary of a breeder with that colour in their prefix.

It's is an acceptable colour therefore it's not unethical to breed. How about actually providing the OP with some reccomendations of good breeders who breed this colour instead of dissing all Breeders who breed this colour.

Thanks SAS for your comments. I am one of those "breeders" that is very passionate about the chocolate labrador. It does not mean I value the other colours any less, and I own and do breed all 3 colours. Actually just had a litter this morning of yellow and blacks.

Although sadly there are breeders that are breeding solely for colour - please do not tarnish us all with the same brush, as we are all NOT the same.

Just like I do not criticise my prospective puppy buyers for wanting a "chocolate" or a "yellow" one, bitch or dog....you know, it is purely a personal preference.

As for prices - you can pay from $1000 to $1500 for a Labrador puppy. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

[mikelli]

Although sadly there are breeders that are breeding solely for colour - please do not tarnish us all with the same brush, as we are all NOT the same.

Certainly no suggestion that all chocolate breeders are the same - like you, I, on occasions breed all three colours and appreciate each colour of our breed.

I think most of the ones that are doing the colour thing have only been in the breed for 5 minuits anyway, as I and others have said there are some poor expamples of all colours of the breed out there.......I guess it is that labradors are such great dogs, lots of people get on the band wagon and breed without the knowledge needed to produce quality sound dogs true to type......

[sas]

What's being discussed here is why many many poodle folk are wary of allowing particolours to upgraded from a disqualifying fault in the standards.

There are already folk advertising "rare" phantom markings (and they ain't rare at all) for $$$$ and people falling for it.

Imagine the circus if partis get back in. Most poodle folk admire a good one but worry about what might happen to the standard of dogs if flashy markings become fashionable.

No.....they're discussing Chocolate Labradors...

I think what PF meant is that the current situation with Choc Labs is relevant to the issue of partis in poodles in the sense that if they were allowed, the poodle breed would face similar issues of breeders breeding for colour rather than quality.

Parti Poodles are irrelevant, they're not an accepted colour therefore completely OT in this discussion.

I'm sick of hearing people dis Breeders who bred dogs of colours that are highly sort after, in this case it's chocolate, a colour that is accepted in the ring so therefore included in the breed standard and there are plenty of Breeders who do this colour justice.

I own of dog which is a highly sort after colour that plenty of shonkly breeders bred but there are many of wonderful breeders of this colour as well.

What really got my goat was how right at the begining of this thread Chocolate Breeders were dissed and that wasn't fair...some people don't think they did dis them but they clearly did and it made them look terribly uneducated.

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Too many assumptions made in this thread....l

[blacklabrador]

I don't see anything wrong with a Breeder who has a preference for Chocolates and wishes to breed them, as long as they are doing the breed justice, what is the problem?

Sas, perhaps being involved with the breed would give you a clearer insight into the issues. I would suspect that there are far more breeders out there breeding chocolate labs for their colour than there are breeding them for their quality. If you know the show scene and look through the lists of breeders it becomes clear that a lot of breeders that fit into this category do not show their dogs (nor does anybody else). There are a handful of fine breeders who breed chocolates and are doing a wonderful job of improving the standard of them in Australia. Miss Monaro is one of them and so are many of the other breeders who have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately for every "good" breeder there are many out there who are mating two chocolate dogs with no real regard for breed type. I guess that does generate an attitude within people who associate with the breed but at this stage I believe that those who are doing the right thing by the colour are proving themselves enormously, particularly in recent years.

Edited April 22, 2010 by blacklabrador

[Crisovar]

I think most breeds with various colours can strike this, some colours have mass appeal, and if breeders can provide those in an quality animal why not. Silver poodles, more recently red poodles, blue danes all come to mind.

I would take have chocolate lab if I were to have one, I like the colour, but I also know what I like in a Lab so it would have to be the full package.