Steven Lindsay

[Lablover]

Has anyone heard how the seminar was progressing?

Did anyone attend his Melbourne talk last weekend?

[Lablover]

Should be ring contacts or be patient?

[corvus]

Day 1 in Sydney was very interesting, although I was glad I'd read some of his work beforehand. It took him a little bit of meandering to really settle in to what he wanted to say. He spoke a little about competence bringing about confidence in dogs and people, which was quite tantalisingly close to the optimism stuff I've just started reading up on for my studies. He also touched on what we perceive as rewards for a behaviour are only rewards for that behaviour if they were what the dog was wanting, and the idea that behaviour arises from predictions of outcomes. If an expected reward is not received, that is an aversive. What I thought was really cool was that pleasant surprises where the reward, or positive control factor, or whatever you want to call it, is greater than expected result in kind of an intensified affirmation. That lesson is learnt faster and retained longer. It works the same way when what happens is strongly disappointing because it falls short of the expectation.

He mentioned Bayes' Theorem! He's my hero!

[The Spotted Devil]

Geez you're impatient LL Too busy eating and drinking to be on DOL Only day one...more to come before I cast my judgement!

[Nekhbet]

The whole thing is extremely fascinating ... and thanks to the trade show I've blown a decent amount of money :rolleyes: Cant wait for tomorrow!

[corvus]

I very much like his take on rewards and aversives as being things that are the result of either successful predictions or unsuccessful predictions. I've been tossing the idea that behaviour is largely driven by the desire to control for a while, but hadn't taken the concept so far. It's nice to see a much more elegant and detailed explanation.

I was also happy to see him give a good nod to Panksepp when he mentioned drive theory. I love Panksepp's explanations of emotional states and behaviour. It makes profound good sense to me as a behavioural ecologist.

I was fascinated by the prepulse inhibition he mentioned today. Gonna visit Google University about that one. :rolleyes:

It's refreshing to have someone just wipe away all of the mystification around dog behaviour and training and get to the facts.

The other speakers have also been good, mostly. I especially liked Robert Holmes. What a cool guy. He's just so likeable and engaging.

[Quickasyoucan]

I was only able to go to the first day. I agree with Corvus, he did seem to meander a little at the beginning (reminded me of some of my uni lectures years ago), but then he would drop the odd absolute pearl that had me nodding my head. I got the feeling as he progressed that he was starting by setting a wider philosophical framework and then would narrow down over the course of the 3 days but obviously I didn't go to the other 2 so that is my view.

I definitely want to try and read the books now - slowly!

He is a fascinating man, part nutty professor, part genius, but also with a great degree of emotion in how he views canines. I think it is a shame that the only publicity that was in the media focussed on his advocacy of "punishment". Talk about taken totally out of context.

This is a guy who has obviously spent his life thinking about dogs and dog behaviour but trying to find scientific backing for what he has discovered rather than just saying this is how it is.

Am annoyed I couldn't go to the whole thing. Watching the correction dog demos and the video Steve Austin did about using dogs to protect wildlife from feral pests was also really interesting. There is so much more dogs could be used for.

I think well done to the NDTF from what I saw on the first day.

[corvus]

For those interested in what Lindsay said today about tracking, there were some pretty strong shades of Panksepp in that as well. I think I mentioned recently in one of those awful drive "discussions" that I thought scenting ought to be called "Seeking drive" if you really wanted to put it in a drive category based on the reward. Lindsay really explained the thinking behind that comment beautifully today - much better than I ever could. For more information, there's a nice little section on Panksepp's SEEK mode here.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I know NDTF said probably no dvd, but was someone videotaping?

[melzawelza]

I really really enjoyed the three days, but I honestly enjoyed some of the other speakers more than Steven.

He's an amazing man and has some great knowledge, but he is way too stream of consciousness for me. The tone of his voice, the constant breaking in the middle of sentences to think, and the constant going off topic to something else halfway through....I was actually falling asleep in some of the lectures!

Also - way too much about morals. It's an interesting subject and great to talk about but I think ONE of the lectures over the three days should have been focused on that. I'm really disappointed that we didn't hear more about his actual TRAINING ideas and techniques rather than just lots of different ways of discussing the human/dog relationship. Pretty much every single lecture was just a morals lecture and I don't think that's well balanced at all.

I enjoyed him much more in the Q & A sessions because he had more purpose and less room to meander. And people were asking questions relating directly to training and dog behaviour so we got some insight into his opinions on that.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked him and respect all his opinions and obvious time he has spent thinking about all those moral issues.... but every lecture in the three days being focused on that is way way way way WAY too much!!! And I definitely wasn't the only one to think that way, as when he said today 'oh, you want me to focus more on technique', there was a resounding 'YES!' from the people around me.

My favourite lectures were from Drew Boyd (on maximising performance), and Robert Holmes (On the importance of looking for physical problems when there are behavioural issues present), and also the various Q & A's

[corvus]

Someone was videoing it, yes.

I heard the same complaint from a lot of people, melzawelza. I can understand what he was driving at as ethics does underpin pretty much the whole of the cynopraxic training philosophy and I don't think we do think carefully enough about what we are doing with our dogs (or any other animals, really). Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and just because it's convenient and what you want doesn't mean that's the only consideration. We all know that on the surface of it, but who has thought of crating a dog or leashing a dog or penning a dog or even fencing a dog in a yard as a behaviour suppressant and therefore a punisher? Not to say you shouldn't do it, but I think it is valuable to acknowledge it for what it is and what it takes from your dog.

But by this morning, even I was getting bored with ethics and I have a really high tolerance for it. I was astonished that the only reason he talked about shaping was because someone asked a question at the very end of today. And then he's like "Oh, this is such a great thing to do and it really epitomises good cynopraxic training." I thought it might have been nice to talk about that when everyone was there... I do think his alternatives to behaviourism are very interesting and worth more attention and explanation than they got. But maybe that's just me. I felt like it was much clearer in his books and I wouldn't have understood much of what he said about it if I hadn't read it beforehand. What do other people think?

[melzawelza]

I haven't read his books, and I found some of it quite hard to follow, but I don't know ifnthat was because I was just really losing interest and couldn't concentrate. I agree with you that ts very impotant to consider everything he was discussig, definitely, but i really don't think we needed any more ethics than one session. next to Nothing else got a look in and I was so disappointed I didn't get more tangible things out of him that I could apply to my training at work and everyday life.

I too was shocked the shaping only came in when the question was asked at the end. I'lf you looked at the program for he last session you would see that it was supposed to be discussed there as well as training for performance and some other interesting subjects. none of this was even touched on on the session. All of those topics would have been fascinating and I was really looking forward to it.

I feel he shot himself in the foot because he so strongly wanted to get his ethics across but I found myself literally falling asleep in some parts! I didn't take in anywhere near as much as I would have If it was presented in a clear, concise manner with less waffling.

The more I think about it the more disappointed I realize I am with his involvment. I certainly learnt from him but I anticipated learning SO much more and having so much that I could go to work with tomorrow to try out or implement in the way I train.

The conference itself was worth it but I have to say steve was a let down. As much as he seems like a lovely man and is essentially a genius, I was very disappointed.

[Cosmolo]

I enjoyed the conference although i also understand why aspects may disappoint as there were topics that i too had thought would be covered more specifically and in greater detail. I had hoped for anxiety and OCD to be covered in more detail for instance.

There is no question that Steven Lindsay is a genius with immense knowledge as well as being a person with humility and caring- i think if we could have had him for another week, it would have been even better! He does take time to say what he needs to say- which is fine if we coudl have listened for longer!

I thought the Monday was the best presentation by Steven and i also very much enjoyed the Saturday afternoon with Boyd Hooper and Paul McGreevey as well as Steve Austins demo's and the dancing dog! My brain is strained now though!

I loved thinking in terms of gain and loss instead of reinforcement and punishment- a very valuable concept IMO.

There will NOT be a dvd produced- it was recorded for record keeping sake only.

[Kelpie-i]

I too would have liked to have seen more topics covered but I also think that those he did cover were great.

Stephen's mind is like an intricate network of information, facts and experience. It is difficult for him to answer things in the way you and I are used to...he needs to delve into that framework and sort through all the information nestled in each database and put it all together to answer a question. He pauses to think....he reminds me "Doc" in Back to the Future movies. Definitely a high function mind.

I think that those who attended the seminar without reading any of his books and/or attending with the expectation of learning techniques would have been bitterly disappointed. This is not what Stephen Lindsay is about and therefore it would not have been that sort of seminar.

I loved it and I agree Cosmolo....would have loved a whole week of it. Dogs pulling on the lead now have a whole new angle

Edited March 23, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

I can only reiterate what Kelpie-i and Cosmolo have said. Steve Lindsay has a fascinating mind and I felt that we'd just really started to get 'in' to the revelations he was delivering only to find the conference time was unfortunately at an end.

I thoroughly enjoyed the underlying concept he was teaching - ie ..... to understand the dog at that deeper level and not skim the surface of the dog, not to just look at the outside of the dog, and to think as the dog is likely to be thinking and viewing the world, and feeling. I think the delivery of his words "to remember to think as US being in the DOG'S world" is something I will find myself reiterating to others (as a bit of a change to and better than the words eg. "think dog"). I have a few other Steve Lindsay'isms that I thought were great and which I wrote down for future use .

I loved the balance of thought that he created and thought he did a wonderful job at explaining things that are so intangible and hence very difficult at anyone's standard to teach/explain and/or raise for thought.

I felt the weekend was well delivered by NDTF and carried a very professional front - in that, I think they deserve congratulations ;). I think especially (but not only) for a first conference, the attendance and organisation throughout the days of the Conference was excellent and whilst I know they announced that this is not likely to be an annual event, I would love to see more. Ummmmm, if NDTF is reading .... Ivan Balabanov would be cool to see and hear ;) .

It was great to have the Trade Stall people there and I was given the pleasure of looking out/after them ..... I made a few good acquaintances from that - they were all a fantastic bunch of people. I hope that many made use of the availability of the dog related items being there - was great to 'see before you buy' in this world of 'on-line everything'.

I am sure that when I open up my Steven Lindsay Handbooks again, I will hear his voice as though he were speaking them vocally. Although I might miss the "ah, yes .... hmmm, that's good" that he would murmer when reading his slides and obviously determining how he would iterate and explain them to us. I might very well imagine the wicked twinkle in his eyes when he made a joke - his laughter is quite contageous, I found, and somewhat endearing. Hhhhmmm ...... yes, I think "endearing" is the word.

I especially agree with Kelpie-i in that he very much did seem as 'Doc' does in those 'Back to the Future' movies.

But hey ..... Sydney people - your restaurant meals are so expensive!! :p (but very more-ish just the same )

ETA: Oh, yes!!! I almost forgot to mention and thank JigSaw for the lift from the airport to our accomodation on the Friday afternoon. It was great to know that someone was there to pick us up ...... and that my GPS (which I keep referring to as a GSP .... once a dog person always a dog person :p) works in Sydney (mostly) as well .

ETA: Oops! Forgetting things . I thought the demonstration by Steve Austin with "King" was good and hopefully portrays and demonstrates to people who perhaps haven't taken the opportunity to learn about that type of work/sport that teaching a dog to bite a sleeve does not maketh a dangerous dog. The demonstration where the 'decoy' (apologies - can't remember his name) allowed the sleeve to come away and then approached and gave "King" a hearty pat/rub/cuddle. King enjoyed the attention, but his main thrill was for the sleeve, not for the person.

Having the little Spaniels there was great as well. <Sigh> .... ya gotta luv pups, and to see how much they are capable of when they've only been in our world (or perhaps I should say, we've only been in their world) for a space of 9 weeks or so, for me will never cease to be awe-inspiring.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

I loved thinking in terms of gain and loss instead of reinforcement and punishment- a very valuable concept IMO.

For those that didn't go, it's not just thinking in terms of gain and loss instead of reinforcement and punishment, but in terms of "better" and "worse" in relation to what their experiences have already taught them. He was saying that dogs learn when what they expect to happen as a result of their actions is different to what does happen (better or worse). He said that this is the only time that dogs learn, but I'm not sure if he meant just within an instrumental learning framework (like operant conditioning) or in general. I take it it's the former, because I can't see how classical conditioning can be incorporated into that theory, and that one is undeniable. Did people understand what he was talking about with those control expectancies? I thought it was really good stuff. And the idea that trying to reward outside of the dog's current mode can even be a bit of a punishment. I was talking to OH about that this morning and he didn't agree with it. But then, he's used to Kivi, who doesn't often get fixed in modes the way more drivey dogs do.

I think my understanding of Establishing Operations in dog training is a lot better, now. I started playing around with that a few months ago at the dog park by popping a treat before I release the dogs. I wasn't even sure if it was an EO at the time. Just guessing. Great for Kivi, but doesn't do much for Erik. I suspect it isn't the right reward for Erik at that moment.

[Casster17]

I think i missed the best ever convention...

I think i will now go away and hide...

[Herr Rottweiler]

yes you missed the best conference I have ever been to.

Some wonderful events occured for me during the last 6 days.

My approach to training has evolved further and I'm pleased to know that what I was thinking about was definately on the right track.

As I was walking Steve back to his hotel room most evenings I was fortunate to have some facinating conversations.

Not to mention I have it on video to reference for ever!!!

Sorry guys.. would love to say its up for grabs..but its not. Many of the presenters have requested that it not be available for public use and unless they change their mind i'll honour it.

have to add a brag to...I was very fortunate to have Steve come to my house while we were waiting to go to Sydney...Got to hang out, play with the dogs and talk about computers and theories. That man is a very deep thinker and researches everything and anything.

I only have a few people who I find inspiring in Dog Training and he's at the top of my list every since I read his first book.

What a great honour it was to meet Steven Lindsay and to now have him as a friend.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Herr Rottweiler

[Staranais]

It sounds like an awesome experience. I'm very jealous of everyone that got to go!

[corvus]

I'm curious to know what you have been thinking about that you are now confident is on the right track, Herr? I shared mine. :D