Dog Breaking From Sit Into A Drop

[4 Paws]

This is not a huge issue for me with my dogs but on accasions it has happened at training that a dog will be in a sit/stay and after a time deceides to go into a drop

How do most people handle this,what do you do?Most people I have seen tend to drag the dogs collar up and put it back in a sit,does it learn anything from this method?

[Guest Ams]

A gentle but firm "No"and replace into position. IMHO Dragging the dog back into place is "old school".

[Aidan]

Simply asking the dog to sit again, then making sure you are asking for an appropriate duration (not going too long) will teach the dog not to break about as fast as anything else. Aim to work durations that the dog will succeed at at least 80% of the time (i.e failing fewer than 1/5 trials). If you get more failures than this, decrease the length of time you ask the dog to sit before reinforcing.

One way to automatically set an appropriate criterion for duration is to use the "300 Peck Method" - see http://positivepetzine.com/300_Peck

[The Spotted Devil]

For me, personally, I'm not mad keen on correcting them from the drop to a sit, no matter how gently because I'm not convinced that the dog actually learns anything from that. Plus, no matter how gentle you are I think the handler's body language gives away SO much, which can be very conflicting for the dog.

When I was teaching Zig wait (for recall) he started preempting the recall. I just said "oh well" very calmly (NRM) and walked back to the original position - because I had used this method consistently he immediately knew he hadn't nailed the exercise and heeled enthusiastically back to the starting position (without me saying anything else) to give it another shot. Then I would ask him to sit, wait, leave and then return relatively quickly to heavily reward. With a sensitive dog I found this was a great way to keep him trying to work out how he was going to get that reward. He has never broken a stay or gone down in a sit stay but I would use the same approach - I would also go back to playing steady feet under every possible condition to set him up for success and make sitting still extremely valuable.

ETA: I still stand by Sue Hogben's adage: "if the dog doesn't do as its told, it either doesn't get it or is not getting paid enough"

Edited March 18, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

I think it is more effective to be able to stop the drop before it happens. So reducing the distance and being able to verbally reinforce the stay. I also never drop my dog from a sit stay. So for the drop I move the dog off the line and then back into position.

This is my main issue at the moment. Poppy drops because she is nervous. It has taken a year to get back to a 1 min sit stay at comp distance after she got a fright.

[The Spotted Devil]

JulesP, I do the same - never drop from a sit. Poor Poppy - hope she continues to progress!

And who's to say that the dog doesn't actually find the process of the owner returning and correcting rewarding?

[Cosmolo]

I think once the dog slides, a no reward mark and gentle guide is appropriate. As i use a release word, i don't want to release the dog once they have slid as this can be reinforcing. But then as others have said, decreasing the distance or level of distraction or both, and heavily rewarding is vital.

[dark angel]

in my opinion decreasing the time in the sit position and slowly increasing it over time helps.Also if my dog breaks (we do 20 min stays now) i will walk back to him not looking at him get him into heel position circle and sit him again.Another little trick is to walk to him tap his front paws with your feet telling him to sit and whallah he is sitting again.Its a good way to go from a drop to a sit off lead but of course you have to be close to him.

[Prydenjoy]

What Aiden said.

Set the dog up for success. I watch a lot of dogs trained by the "set them up for failure, then scream the house down" method and they show so many stress signals, they are so anxious that of course they break. Setting them up for success gives them confidence, and, from what I've seen, much more reliability. Watch your dogs body language, if they are yawning and generally look worried, you may be pushing them too far. Take a step or two back and aim for a happy, relaxed dog.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog on nice warm days, would drop from the sit, and then lie down (dead dog) and go to sleep. Nice to see her calm and relaxed in class and not nicking off to greet everybody but... not what I was looking for.

So I worked on getting her to stay in the sit and catching her if she started to drop so she could "get it". I hadn't been very strong on stopping her from doing it as I was more focussed on her "stay" no matter what the position.

We practice in front of dinner - as per "triangle of temptation". I put yummy dinner out. Get her to "come", and then sit stay, and I stay right with her and if she thinks about dropping I catch her, and make sure she stays sitting for a definite interval but not as long as before she dropped. Ie if she took 30 seconds to start to drop and we start over, I make her sit only for 15 seconds the next time. So she's more likely to get it right and I can praise her for getting it right (Set up for success). when she gets it right, she gets a pat, praise, and the release command and the eat dinner command.

[RubyStar]

Unfortunately, the dinner approach won't work for every dog, especially greedy guts ones like mine.

Mine would sit for half an hour in front of their dinner bowl (DROOLING!) and not dare move from the sit stay, just waiting for the command to eat - even though I am still having trouble with my sit stays in training/trialling situations! I am rewarding often to reinforce what I want, but somehow it isn't getting through to my dog. Especially if it's a hot day/night, that drop happens so much quicker!

[bedazzledx2]

Mine too Its the boring stays that get them.

I rarely practice down stays and when I do I make it completely separate from the sit stay. Maybe do the down first followed by a stand and then a sit. Or change position or turn around and do it in a different direction. I practice setting my dog up quick so that I am not mucking about in the ring and can quickly set him up when the judge is ready. Also I always break him from position with my release word and re-set him in the down for the down stays. I have seen many people just pat their dogs and ask them to go down from the sit in preparation for the down stays...thats asking them to anticipate the down.

Unfortunately, the dinner approach won't work for every dog, especially greedy guts ones like mine.

Mine would sit for half an hour in front of their dinner bowl (DROOLING!) and not dare move from the sit stay, just waiting for the command to eat - even though I am still having trouble with my sit stays in training/trialling situations! I am rewarding often to reinforce what I want, but somehow it isn't getting through to my dog. Especially if it's a hot day/night, that drop happens so much quicker!

[huski]

Unfortunately, the dinner approach won't work for every dog, especially greedy guts ones like mine.

Mine would sit for half an hour in front of their dinner bowl (DROOLING!) and not dare move from the sit stay, just waiting for the command to eat - even though I am still having trouble with my sit stays in training/trialling situations! I am rewarding often to reinforce what I want, but somehow it isn't getting through to my dog. Especially if it's a hot day/night, that drop happens so much quicker!

My problem with stays (mainly downs not sit stays) is that Daisy is quick to lose interest. I found releasing and rewarding her when she isn't expecting it helps with this... as soon as she thinks I am being predictable and she knows what is going to happen next she goes 'meh, hey a smellz!'

[ness]

Any advice for a dog who drops because they are anticipating a COP drop . I can take her to the park leave her in a sit while I throw a ball the entire length of the oval. Throw food past her, throw the ball over her head. Sprint off past her. But try for a sit stay and she goes into a drop.

Edited March 19, 2010 by ness

[bedazzledx2]

Are you facing her? Check your body position...that can tell a dog lots.

Any advice for a dog who drops because they are anticipating a COP drop . I can take her to the park leave her in a sit while I throw a ball the entire length of the oval. Throw food past her, throw the ball over her head. Sprint off past her. But try for a sit stay and she goes into a drop.

[ness]

Yep I am facing her .

[bedazzledx2]

Try turning side on for a bit so you are changing your body posture.

Yep I am facing her .

[ness]

Another thought - could it also possibly be the result of inadvertent pressure from standing to close. She doesn't drop when I leave her on a recall and walk away that distance but we haven't done a lot of sit stay work so I was standing fairly close to her. If she breaks a recall she does it by coming to me not dropping. Wonder if she is dropping because she feels intimidated.

Edited March 19, 2010 by ness

[ness]

Ok just tried turning side on and she still went down before I even taken a step .

[dark angel]

Please dont take this the wrong way.But i believe far too many people put the failures of a dog eg not sitting, dropping instead of sitting, breaking stays etc on excuses of being intimidated or standing the wrong way (just the reasons Ive read).To me its plain and simple the dog hasnt been trained enough in that area.Go back to basics.Dont jump steps, go slow.Once a dog knows what it MUST do it will do it.

If a dog breaks at a wait/Stay there is a reason ..THE DOG the dog doesnt know what it has to do.

Not how you are standing or if you are too close.