Dogs Playing With Dogs

[megan_]

A dog can be happy and healthy mentally and physically without having to regularly greet or play with strange dogs.

But we're not talking about strange dogs? I don't see anyone advocating a free-for-all. Rather, meeting and playing with dogs in a controlled environment when the owner knows the other dogs.

ETA: I would struggle to believe that a dog in a single dog household that was never allowed to run/play with any dog ever would be mentally stable. I don't have any evidence to support that, but it just seems a bit off to me.

Edited March 17, 2010 by megan_

[huski]

But we're not talking about strange dogs? I don't see anyone advocating a free-for-all. Rather, meeting and playing with dogs in a controlled environment when the owner knows the other dogs.

But the OP said;

Why do you want your dog to play with other dogs the don't know and what is the benefit in it?

I don't see the benefit in taking my youngest dog, who is three years old, was socialised appropriately as a young pup/dog, who has a stable view of other dogs, and letting her play regularly with dogs we don't know

Some people enjoy taking their dog to the dog park and what not but it doesn't appeal to me and I don't see the benefit, in fact I see it as a risk.

My dogs rarely play with dogs outside our pack, although we see dogs out and about at training etc, apart from DOL meets which I only go to every few months I generally don't make time to let my dogs play with others.

I'm not saying we should lock our dogs up and never let them play with others as it's important to let them what other dogs are and how to interact with them but once you have a dog with a stabilised view of other dogs it's hardly going to ruin them if they don't regularly get to play with strange dogs.

[Agility Dogs]

A dog can be happy and healthy mentally and physically without having to regularly greet or play with strange dogs.

Not saying there is anything wrong with it or that people shouldn't want it for their own dogs. It's just not something I want for my dogs at this point in time.

They need to be able to interact without becoming reactive when it is not warranted, but I don't need them to run around and play.

I do see other dogs do it after flyball every week and they do have a ball. My two can join the bunch if I want them too, in fact we sometimes put them in the mix if there is an over the top youngster who needs to meet my boy for a reality check. (CK has taught a number of our younger dogs to respect others - he is very firm, but appropriate - what I had to work on was his judgement of what needed to be corrected and what was OK.) But I choose to leave them in the car or do shaping exercises with me while we have coffee. They don't even know that the other dogs are there.

IMO I was anothromorphising when I wanted my dogs to play with others when I first started out with them. Again, I'm not saying everyone else is, I'm saying I was wanting it for the wrong reasons.

Has been a very interesting discussion - thanks everyone for sharing your point of view.

[huski]

ETA: I would struggle to believe that a dog in a single dog household that was never allowed to run/play with any dog ever would be mentally stable. I don't have any evidence to support that, but it just seems a bit off to me.

I've not once said that is what I believe in, so apologies if anything I've written has somehow been misconstrued in that way - all dogs need to learn what other dogs are about and how to interact with them. I personally don't think we need to teach them that other dogs are super duper exciting, super high value and the best thing ever. I think a lot of dog owners run into issues when they allow their pups/dogs to develop a higher value for other dogs than they have for their owners.

All socialisation means is giving your dog a new experience and assigning it a value, Daisy (for example) learnt as a puppy that other dogs have a positive value because I socialised her with other dogs appropriately at the right age. She doesn't need to keep greeting and playing with strange dogs to keep being a well adjusted dog who has a stable view of other dogs, she isn't going to lose her ability to interact appropriately with other dogs if I don't let her play with them all the time.

[blacklabrador]

A dog can be happy and healthy mentally and physically without having to regularly greet or play with strange dogs.

But if they have a good time with other dogs, they are trustworthy and enjoy the experience then why is there the need to even question the practice?

Meeting strange dogs at the park is very important for young dogs. You can't protect them from strange dogs their whole life (unless they just never leave the property) and they will encounter them on lead in various situations so isn't it better to have a dog who knows how to cope in situations with strange dogs? If they only hang around the dogs they live with then they dont' get to experience the broad range of body language that different dogs might show, or the different ways that different dogs will react to them.

My pointer is a bit timid but he's learnt, through regular visits to the dog park, to manage himself there. He used to spend the first ten minutes having a quiet freak out but now he's fine. He's always been keen to go but was obviously overwhelmed initially. He has no difficulty socialising with my dogs in my backyard but I want for him to have social confidence in situations with strange dogs. He is very gentle and mostly plays chasing games, unless he meets another labrador and then you see the whole "I know how to play with that one!!" kind of confidence. Otherwise he would be a basket case when I took him out to a dog show or a trial etc.

I really don't care if other people want their dogs to socialise or not. My dogs love it, I love going to the park with them, I believe it benefits them because they seriously love it and it tires them out. So we shall continue. If they were happier hanging out in the backyard then I'd leave them there.

[huski]

But if they have a good time with other dogs, they are trustworthy and enjoy the experience then why is there the need to even question the practice?

It depends if it is creating issues for you. Is letting your dog build a high value for other dogs impacting on your ability to proof them around other dogs in a training situation? (for example). As I said earlier, I would rather teach my dog straight off the bat that other dogs are nothing to get too excited over rather than teach them that they are super exciting and then have to spend a lot of time training them not to think that down the track.

It won't be a problem for some people of course but it is a common problem faced by dog owners at my obedience club.

Meeting strange dogs at the park is very important for young dogs. You can't protect them from strange dogs their whole life (unless they just never leave the property) and they will encounter them on lead in various situations so isn't it better to have a dog who knows how to cope in situations with strange dogs? If they only hang around the dogs they live with then they dont' get to experience the broad range of body language that different dogs might show, or the different ways that different dogs will react to them.

Having a dog who will have lasting behaviourial issues for the rest of his life because I thought letting him run with strange dogs at the dog park and allowing him to learn how to "manage" them and himself was the right thing to do, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the above I will never take a puppy to a dog park for a free for all ever again. When I have a puppy or young dog again I will do what I did with Daisy and set up play dates with dogs I know are friendly and well balanced. They might not be strange dogs for me, but they will be dogs my pup/dog hasn't met before. I don't think a pup/young dog needs to meet dozens upon dozens of strange dogs to have a stable and balanced view of other dogs and to be able to interact with them appropriately. The last thing I would do with a timid dog would be to take them to a dog park that was full of dogs I didn't know - way too much of a risk for me, but then again, I have seen what can happen when it all goes wrong.

Edited March 17, 2010 by huski

[blacklabrador]

But if they have a good time with other dogs, they are trustworthy and enjoy the experience then why is there the need to even question the practice?

It depends if it is creating issues for you. Is letting your dog build a high value for other dogs impacting on your ability to proof them around other dogs in a training situation? (for example). As I said earlier, I would rather teach my dog straight off the bat that other dogs are nothing to get too excited over rather than teach them that they are super exciting and then have to spend a lot of time training them not to think that down the track.

It won't be a problem for some people of course but it is a common problem faced by dog owners at my obedience club.

Meeting strange dogs at the park is very important for young dogs. You can't protect them from strange dogs their whole life (unless they just never leave the property) and they will encounter them on lead in various situations so isn't it better to have a dog who knows how to cope in situations with strange dogs? If they only hang around the dogs they live with then they dont' get to experience the broad range of body language that different dogs might show, or the different ways that different dogs will react to them.

Having a dog who will have lasting behaviourial issues for the rest of his life because I thought letting him run with strange dogs at the dog park and allowing him to learn how to "manage" them and himself was the right thing to do, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the above I will never take a puppy to a dog park for a free for all ever again. When I have a puppy or young dog again I will do what I did with Daisy and set up play dates with dogs I know are friendly and well balanced. They might not be strange dogs for me, but they will be dogs my pup/dog hasn't met before. I don't think a pup/young dog needs to meet dozens upon dozens of strange dogs to have a stable and balanced view of other dogs and to be able to interact with them appropriately. The last thing I would do with a timid dog would be to take them to a dog park that was full of dogs I didn't know - way too much of a risk for me, but then again, I have seen what can happen when it all goes wrong.

How do you know what he would have been like if you hadn't socialised him? Some dogs get attacked at the dog park, learn a lesson about socialisation ie being a bit more wary, and bounce back to be beautifully socialised dogs. I know T bone had to be nipped and be told off severely quite a few times before he learnt better manners. It never affected his confidence and temperament though - but that's just typical of the breed if you care to generalise. If I had a dog that I thought would be forever scared by anything less less than a severe attack then I wouldn't take them to the dog park. I know my dogs and know that I have no more to fear than anybody else who enters a dog park (there are always going to be risks). My dogs are friendly and the boys actively avoid conflict, Poppy is a little tough nut who will run towards a fight but won't pick one.

In my experience dogs value other dogs less as they mature. It doesn't cause problems for me, except I'd like to have better control over their excitement between when I get them out of the car and when we get to the gate.

Play dates are fair enough if that's what you're wanting to do. Personally I don't find it convenient or available enough to do frequently. We have a great mix of dogs at the dog park who are there any afternoon we want.

[Kavik]

Meeting strange dogs at the park is very important for young dogs. You can't protect them from strange dogs their whole life (unless they just never leave the property) and they will encounter them on lead in various situations so isn't it better to have a dog who knows how to cope in situations with strange dogs? If they only hang around the dogs they live with then they dont' get to experience the broad range of body language that different dogs might show, or the different ways that different dogs will react to them.

Having a dog who will have lasting behaviourial issues for the rest of his life because I thought letting him run with strange dogs at the dog park and allowing him to learn how to "manage" them and himself was the right thing to do, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the above I will never take a puppy to a dog park for a free for all ever again. When I have a puppy or young dog again I will do what I did with Daisy and set up play dates with dogs I know are friendly and well balanced. They might not be strange dogs for me, but they will be dogs my pup/dog hasn't met before. I don't think a pup/young dog needs to meet dozens upon dozens of strange dogs to have a stable and balanced view of other dogs and to be able to interact with them appropriately. The last thing I would do with a timid dog would be to take them to a dog park that was full of dogs I didn't know - way too much of a risk for me, but then again, I have seen what can happen when it all goes wrong.

Unfortunately I have had the same experience with Zoe :rolleyes: Some timid dogs may learn to cope and manage themselves, but certainly not all do, some become aggressive.

[blacklabrador]

Some timid dogs may learn to cope and manage themselves, but certainly not all do, some become aggressive.

I guess it's about knowing your dog and how they might cope.

The OP was actually generalising about dogs playing with other dogs, rather than the pros and cons of dog parks. So that would really include any kind of deliberate socialisation between your dog and another dog, whether known or not.

[Kavik]

If I had known how she would cope, or that it was a possible outcome of taking her to the park, I wouldn't have done it. I didn't realise at the time that it could cause the issues it did

[Agility Dogs]

But we're not talking about strange dogs? I don't see anyone advocating a free-for-all. Rather, meeting and playing with dogs in a controlled environment when the owner knows the other dogs.

But the OP said;

Why do you want your dog to play with other dogs the don't know and what is the benefit in it?

I don't see the benefit in taking my youngest dog, who is three years old, was socialised appropriately as a young pup/dog, who has a stable view of other dogs, and letting her play regularly with dogs we don't know

Some people enjoy taking their dog to the dog park and what not but it doesn't appeal to me and I don't see the benefit, in fact I see it as a risk.

My dogs rarely play with dogs outside our pack, although we see dogs out and about at training etc, apart from DOL meets which I only go to every few months I generally don't make time to let my dogs play with others.

I'm not saying we should lock our dogs up and never let them play with others as it's important to let them what other dogs are and how to interact with them but once you have a dog with a stabilised view of other dogs it's hardly going to ruin them if they don't regularly get to play with strange dogs.

Huski has the context in which I meant the question correct. It is not about whether dog parks are a good or bad thing. It is about play between dogs from different 'packs' and why those who do enjoy it think it is important.

I'm not worried which side of the fence people sit on, I'm just curious about those on the 'other' side of this particular fenced.

[huski]

How do you know what he would have been like if you hadn't socialised him? Some dogs get attacked at the dog park, learn a lesson about socialisation ie being a bit more wary, and bounce back to be beautifully socialised dogs. I know T bone had to be nipped and be told off severely quite a few times before he learnt better manners. It never affected his confidence and temperament though - but that's just typical of the breed if you care to generalise. If I had a dog that I thought would be forever scared by anything less less than a severe attack then I wouldn't take them to the dog park. I know my dogs and know that I have no more to fear than anybody else who enters a dog park (there are always going to be risks). My dogs are friendly and the boys actively avoid conflict, Poppy is a little tough nut who will run towards a fight but won't pick one.

I didn't say I wouldn't have socialised him - I said I wouldn't have taken him to the dog park to mix with strange dogs. If I hadn't taken him to the dog park to allow him to learn to "cope" with all the different dogs there then he wouldn't have been dominated and attacked on several occasions which is what created his fear aggression.

Sometimes, especially if the pup is in their fear period, it only takes one attack from another dog for them to have issues for life.

Micha was a confident, happy dog before he was attacked (the first attacked happened when he was around 5 months of age) and had no problems with other dogs until he learnt that they were something to be fearful of and something that he would be threatened by. Apart from his fear aggression, which was a learned behaviour, he has an excellent temperament and is fantastic with dogs he knows.

The attack doesn't have to be serious in terms of physical injury - all it takes if for the dog who was attacked to learn that other dogs are going to attack them, dominate them, scare or intimidate them for their confidence and value of other dogs to be affected.

Daisy has a very stable view of other dogs and this was driven home for me last week when she was attacked at dog school. She recovered quite quickly and from what I've been able to test so far, has no lasting issues due to the attack. Had she been a young pup/dog in her fear period, or already timid or wary of other dogs or like Micha who is fear aggressive the outcome could have been very different.

In my experience dogs value other dogs less as they mature. It doesn't cause problems for me, except I'd like to have better control over their excitement between when I get them out of the car and when we get to the gate.

Play dates are fair enough if that's what you're wanting to do. Personally I don't find it convenient or available enough to do frequently. We have a great mix of dogs at the dog park who are there any afternoon we want.

That play dates may not be as convenient as taking the dogs to the local dog park isn't important (for me) - it is about the level of risk involved. Having a DA dog can be heart breaking, and I will always do everything in my power to ensure I never put my dogs in the same position I put Micha in.

Edited March 17, 2010 by huski

[huski]

If I had known how she would cope, or that it was a possible outcome of taking her to the park, I wouldn't have done it. I didn't realise at the time that it could cause the issues it did

A lot of people don't :rolleyes: Often, how can you? My pup was a confident, outgoing, happy boy. He was a total star at puppy school and not phased by other dogs in any way. He was sadly at a stage in his development where several attacks and poor behaviour from other dogs had a very negative effect on him.

Edited March 17, 2010 by huski

[bluecollie]

I think it is largely dependent on how they are raised, socialised and trained to view other dogs.

I think a lot of that is determined by how the dog is exposed to other dogs in their early development stages - once a dog has learned that other dogs are highly rewarding it can be hard to change that value they have for other dogs. If you start out teaching them that other dogs aren't that exciting then you won't have that problem.

How do you manage to do any of these things without allowing them to play with strange dogs initially??

You can't, so therefore here are your reasons for allowing play with strange dogs and as its been pointed out no one referred to uncontrolled play or dog park play just 'strange dogs'

[huski]

How do you manage to do any of these things without allowing them to play with strange dogs initially??

You can't, so therefore here are your reasons for allowing play with strange dogs and as its been pointed out no one referred to uncontrolled play or dog park play just 'strange dogs'

Where have I said anywhere that I wouldn't let my dogs at some point play with other dogs??

I don't like letting them play with dogs I don't know, I will happily introduce them to dogs I know are stable dogs. If you are happy to let your dogs greet and play with any dog you come across that's fine, but it's not something I am comfortable with.

[bluecollie]

Huski don't take it the wrong way I was simply using your statement as an example of how interaction & play with 'strange' dogs is how dogs are socialised in the first place - until you meet them they are a stranger and this is why I feel play is important to a dogs life..

[huski]

Huski don't take it the wrong way I was simply using your statement as an example of how interaction & play with 'strange' dogs is how dogs are socialised in the first place - until you meet them they are a stranger and this is why I feel play is important to a dogs life..

See, I look at it like this - I may know the dog I am introducing my dog to, but they haven't met them before, so for my dog it's a 'strange' dog. So my dog can get a new experience by greeting a dog it hasn't met before but because I know the dog, I know it's friendly and stable

[corvus]

For me it depends on how my dogs value other dogs. It would be inconvenient to me to have a dog that has a higher desire to play with other dogs than it has for playing with me. It would be inconvenient for me to raise a dog to have a high value of other dogs and then have to train it to ignore them down the track when we are doing (for example) competition obedience - why not teach my dog from the start that other dogs are nothing special?

Whatever happened to using what your dog values as training rewards? I assume you've heard of Premack.

This argument bugs me because in my mind it is defunct. Kivi would certainly rather play with other dogs than me, to the point where as soon as he starts enjoying a game he diverts to another dog if there is one handy. It isn't inconvenient at all, because while he'd rather play with other dogs, there are loads of things he likes doing with me. I am not an experienced trainer and Kivi is not really a naturally obedient dog, yet he is more than happy to come and hang out with me even when there are wild games going on around him. I don't have any trouble holding his attention around other dogs. I haven't had to devalue them for him somehow. It's just plain old boring conditioning. He likes to periodically come and walk next to me in the hopes I will tell him to do something and he can earn a treat. That is not a matter of my training being better to him than dogs. It's just conditioning. For a while I thought it would be much harder if he was more drivey, but then I got Erik and he's actually much easier and more reliable. He is going through a social phase and gets hysterical about going to the dog park, but he sits before he's allowed to go play, and he turns on a dime if someone recalls him. He's more reliable than Kivi is. This morning I was teaching him to walk along one of the logs at the dog park while his 5 best canine pals were playing with Kivi nearby. For an 8 month old terror with the attention span of a gnat, it's pretty impressive. And it's just conditioning. If I can do it, anyone can.

If my dogs are well socialised and have a stabilised view of other dogs, then what is the benefit in going out of my way to let them play with strange dogs? I won't go to dog parks except for the odd DOL meet, and often my youngest dog won't play with dogs there much anyway. She gets to engage with other dogs every day as we own three, so I fail to see the benefit in going out of my way to let her meet greet and play with strange dogs.

We all know dogs don't stop learning when they become adults. If Temple Grandin is correct, they learn details, and to generalise is to gather an accumulation of details. About a month ago Kivi met his first Bulldog. He was totally weirded out by its play style and the noises it made. I guess that the behaviours, the noises, and the sight of this scenario got added to everything he already knows about dogs. My last dog was a master at dog language. She was beautiful to watch and she taught me heaps about dog body language. She didn't get that good by getting to know a handful of dogs, and she wasn't that good at 3 years old. That was a lifetime of accumulated skill. That is the benefit of continued exposure to strange dogs throughout a dog's life. Not only are they less likely to run into behaviour or styles they are unfamiliar with, but they are, I think, better able to cope with unfamiliar behaviour, and they bounce back well if they do have a bad experience.

[huski]

Whatever happened to using what your dog values as training rewards? I assume you've heard of Premack.

This argument bugs me because in my mind it is defunct. Kivi would certainly rather play with other dogs than me, to the point where as soon as he starts enjoying a game he diverts to another dog if there is one handy. It isn't inconvenient at all, because while he'd rather play with other dogs, there are loads of things he likes doing with me. I am not an experienced trainer and Kivi is not really a naturally obedient dog, yet he is more than happy to come and hang out with me even when there are wild games going on around him. I don't have any trouble holding his attention around other dogs. I haven't had to devalue them for him somehow. It's just plain old boring conditioning. He likes to periodically come and walk next to me in the hopes I will tell him to do something and he can earn a treat. That is not a matter of my training being better to him than dogs. It's just conditioning. For a while I thought it would be much harder if he was more drivey, but then I got Erik and he's actually much easier and more reliable. He is going through a social phase and gets hysterical about going to the dog park, but he sits before he's allowed to go play, and he turns on a dime if someone recalls him. He's more reliable than Kivi is. This morning I was teaching him to walk along one of the logs at the dog park while his 5 best canine pals were playing with Kivi nearby. For an 8 month old terror with the attention span of a gnat, it's pretty impressive. And it's just conditioning. If I can do it, anyone can.

So... you're saying that you think your dogs obeying you around distractions has nothing to do with how much they value you? That's it's nothing to do with how exciting or rewarding hanging out with you is?

We all know dogs don't stop learning when they become adults. If Temple Grandin is correct, they learn details, and to generalise is to gather an accumulation of details. About a month ago Kivi met his first Bulldog. He was totally weirded out by its play style and the noises it made. I guess that the behaviours, the noises, and the sight of this scenario got added to everything he already knows about dogs. My last dog was a master at dog language. She was beautiful to watch and she taught me heaps about dog body language. She didn't get that good by getting to know a handful of dogs, and she wasn't that good at 3 years old. That was a lifetime of accumulated skill. That is the benefit of continued exposure to strange dogs throughout a dog's life. Not only are they less likely to run into behaviour or styles they are unfamiliar with, but they are, I think, better able to cope with unfamiliar behaviour, and they bounce back well if they do have a bad experience.

I will let you know when I run into a problem with Daisy failing to act appropriately around other dogs

Although as I did point out a couple of posts ago, Daisy bounced back very well after being attacked (grabbed by the throat, pinned to the ground and shaken) by another dog the other night, so perhaps I don't need to take her to the dog park every single day and expose her to loads of strange dogs in order for her to have a stable view about other dogs.

Edited March 17, 2010 by huski

[Dogsfevr]

If i read agilty dog right i am gathering he is saying why do people equate dog to must play with it??

I get what agilty is saying that so many people just presume that if it has 4 legs it must play with theres .

Our dog socialize BUT only when i say so,my dogs dont presume that every dog that walks past means play,They are trained not to rely on others dogs for amusement .

I see people every day with there dogs & will admit that many just presume they can walk there dogs up to the fence & let there dog interact,it seems many people in my opinion dont tend to think why does there dog have to meet everyone that walks past,sees or os standing still.

Its like when at the vets people dont seem to think the dogs there may be sick but instead a small group see it as a social meet & greet & i dont get that side of things .

For me there is a time & place & my dogs dont dictate what happens at that moment.

I remember at a shop last year with my young dog this lady just walks over & lets here dog bound up.

My dog doenst have an issue but for starters that is plain rude,my dog wa slearning to settle in a highly excitable situation & i dont allow play unless i now the dogs & owners & the floor surface was unsuitable for play.

I told the lady politely that my dog wasnt interacting today & the reasons listed but she looked at me like i was from mars,she had no concept of common sense dog manners.

Her dog was pulling her to come over & she let the dog set the rules not her as the handler.