poodlefan Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) All tools have their places. What I don't like about haltis for general use is this: * A lot of people seem to think they're "kinder" than a flat collar. They aren't. Many dogs find them uncomfortable and many halti's are poorly fitted and irritate the dog's face. If chiropractic vets are warning against their use due to emerging issues for the heads and necks of halti wearing dogs then I think we should be listening to that. * The negative impact that a halti creates on many dogs is present whether the dog is pulling or not. Not even the most aversive trainer would suggest that the aversive should be used when the dog is complying with the behaviour asked for. * All the blurb says that haltis should not be pulled, jerked or used with tension. I see all those behaviours applied to dogs wearing haltis (including very small dogs) all the time. I even see them attached to flexi leads that only work when the dog puts tension on them. * Dogs, kids and haltis? Nope, should not be allowed to happen without parental supervision. I cringe to see dogs hauled around on them. On one occasion I saw a dog hauled over jumps and checked hard by kids teaching Fido to jump. Would I ever recommend a halti? Yes. For someone who needed a degree of physical control over a large dog due to frailty or incapacity but only if taught to use it by someone who knew what they were doing. The ultimate expression of an ignorant dog owner to me is one with a small designer dog fitted with a halti and a flexilead. I see them all the time. Edited March 22, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I had a halti for five minutes. I went to a big dog training club near me and they told me my stafford cross would 'always pull' unless I put him in a halti. I naively bought one. Between me putting my dog in the car and getting home it mysteriously disappeared, I will never know how (what a clever dog I have ) However, I do know how my dog reacted pawing at his face, rolling on the ground when the halti was merely put on, not actually pulled tight or used in any way. I see loads of dogs on my walks on haltis, the majority of them look downtrodden, there is not much joy on the face of a dog being walked in a halti IMO. I have walked my dog on a prong when I was teaching him loose leash walking (yes it is possible even after 4.5 years of arm stretching pulling ), took a few weeks and we have a great walk on a loose leash with a martingale 99.9% of the time (hey no one is perfect). For the records there was no strong reaction when I put a prong on and people have VERY strong opinions about what an aversive that is. I am so glad I persevered and taught my dog to walk properly and believe me he was an ingrained puller I have the physio receipts to prove it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 All tools have their places. What I don't like about haltis for general use is this:* A lot of people seem to think they're "kinder" than a flat collar. They aren't. Many dogs find them uncomfortable and many halti's are poorly fitted and irritate the dog's face. If chiropractic vets are warning against their use due to emerging issues for the heads and necks of halti wearing dogs then I think we should be listening to that. * The negative impact that a halti creates on many dogs is present whether the dog is pulling or not. Not even the most aversive trainer would suggest that the aversive should be used when the dog is complying with the behaviour asked for. * All the blurb says that haltis should not be pulled, jerked or used with tension. I see all those behaviours applied to dogs wearing haltis (including very small dogs) all the time. I even see them attached to flexi leads that only work when the dog puts tension on them. * Dogs, kids and haltis? Nope, should not be allowed to happen without parental supervision. I cringe to see dogs hauled around on them. On one occasion I saw a dog hauled over jumps and checked hard by kids teaching Fido to jump. Would I ever recommend a halti? Yes. For someone who needed a degree of physical control over a large dog due to frailty or incapacity but only if taught to use it by someone who knew what they were doing. The ultimate expression of an ignorant dog owner to me is one with a small designer dog fitted with a halti and a flexilead. I see them all the time. :D Totally agree with the above PF... well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) goldengirl85 I would be walking your baby and the older dog seperatley until you have both under control and walking nicely on lead. What methods are you using whilst she has the halti on? Food is great of course to entice her back into the position you want her and verbal praise and treat when she has stayed there for a few steps, gradually longer and longer between praise. I still tell Beau he is a good boy when he is walking. Ditto... my older dog is a puller (my fault, he was a tiny pup so hardly felt him pulling ) we're working on it, he's getting better. ETA: When walked with another dog he can get a bit competitive and needs to be in front. I was determined not to let the pup develop a pulling habit so always walked them separately, she's 8 months old now and I have only walked them together twice. I use treats and praise her for walking at my side and give her a treat, if she hits the end of the leash I make an 'ah' sound and she'll loosen the lead. She's pretty good now generally. She still pulls a fair bit at training though until I can get her attention (just toooo much going on! Edited March 22, 2010 by amypie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetty Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 My trainer recommended me to use a halti? I brought one last week and tend to use it today. I will be however teaching him to walk loose lead. I don't see the problem if people choose to use it temporaryly. I agree with everyones points but I tend to agree that it depends on the dog and owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypaws84 Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 My bit to add to the thread was to remind you that while your methods work for you, forcing your methods onto others won't work for them. I agree that this is a discussion forum, but nothing can be discussed if you cannot respect that there are methods other than the ones you know and the ones that work for you that WILL work for others and they WILL be just as successful with their dogs. I'm not forcing my methods on to others, I am simply having a discussion on the pros/cons of the methods. I already acknowledged there are instances where head collars can work well for the right dog. It didn't seem like a discussion, in fact it seemed you were picking to pieces other peoples posts and trying to make them feel guilty for using the equipment that works for them. That IMO is disgusting and I'm trying to work out what it is that makes you feel you have the right to do that... Well GoldenGirl has already posted saying that's not how she felt my posts came across, perhaps you're still upset about the thread in the puppy forum when I disagreed with the method you suggested? I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty at all. We are simply having a discussion about training methods. I'm still trying to work out why I would be posting for just a stir? That would be a waste of my very valuable time, and it is definitely not worth wasting that time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen... Are you serious? Posting just to tell others that they are disgusting and forcing their opinions on to others is posting purely to have a stir and cause trouble - you aren't contributing to the topic of the thread by telling people not to share their opinion. Just my honest opinion. Oh, and that is the way it looks to a new member. This doesn't seem like all that friendly a place, or at the very least it is very cliquey... For someone who doesn't "waste their valuable time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen" it is sure coming across like I've upset or offended you on a personal level - now we're unfriendly and cliquey? Why are you so upset and offended if we're not worth wasting time on? BTW - I don't know how we are being cliquey, Longcoat is a new poster here too and I have no idea who they are! And BTW - I've met at least 100 DOLers in real life, and I am sure they would be more than happy to tell you I am far from someone who "hides" behind my computer screen My gosh you have a high opinion of yourself. You disagreed with me once, no worries. I saw your point (when it was written by someone else) and haven't posted there again since... I do find it amusing that you think so highly of yourself that you believe I would hold a grudge because a. you didn't understand what I was conveying in my post and b. that I would believe you to be worth holding a grudge against. Sorry missy, no-one is worth that amount of effort, I'd rather put the time into something useful, like my puppy or my work. Oh, and BTW, I was just doing the exact same thing you are doing when you recommend the TOT to every person with issues with their dogs... It may not seem that way to you, but it is the exact same thing. I didn't say that people on here were disgusting, I stated that forcing your opinions, methods and ideals on someone else is disgusting. I don't know you from a bar of soap, so it would be just a bit of a stretch for me to say that you are disgusting would it not?? I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't contribute to the thread, merely that the way you were doing so came across to me as forceful and almost as a guilt trip. Evidently I am the only one who felt this way, and I don't have a problem with that. I did also state that I agreed with your stance in this instance too, and I did have more to say unfortunately I ran out of time. The general feel I get from this forum is that it is very elitist, there are very clear cliques, there are clear 'leaders' and 'followers' and very clearly the ones who post for no reason than to try to get themselves in the good books of the leaders. This is an opinion gathered from reading through many, many threads. If you'll take note of the fact that I joined in October 2009 and my first post wasn't until last week or the week before (can't remember which), it is an opinion that has taken a lot of time to come to. There is a lot that I could get from this forum, but when every second thread seems to dissolve into a competition for who is 'right' or 'wrong' when really there is only a differing of opinion it's very disheartening to say the least. Evidently you feel that my opinion is wrong. Oh and it means diddly squat to me how many people you've met from this forum, I doubt I'd ever meet you, therefore you are an anonymous face behind a username on a forum displayed on a screen... You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. OP I don't think it's right that people were using their dogs' noses to carry their thongs, but if the dogs weren't stressed or worried about it, I wouldn't be either. Fair enough if the dogs were in distress, but if they were happily off on a beach adventure with their owners, they're having fun and relaxed about it I don't see that we have any right to judge. Oh, and I don't agree with any form of animal abuse, I just don't think that's what was happening in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) My gosh you have a high opinion of yourself. You are the one who came onto this thread and targeted me specifically - you quite clearly have a problem with me :D I did also state that I agreed with your stance in this instance too, and I did have more to say unfortunately I ran out of time. The general feel I get from this forum is that it is very elitist, there are very clear cliques, there are clear 'leaders' and 'followers' and very clearly the ones who post for no reason than to try to get themselves in the good books of the leaders. This is an opinion gathered from reading through many, many threads. If you'll take note of the fact that I joined in October 2009 and my first post wasn't until last week or the week before (can't remember which), it is an opinion that has taken a lot of time to come to. There is a lot that I could get from this forum, but when every second thread seems to dissolve into a competition for who is 'right' or 'wrong' when really there is only a differing of opinion it's very disheartening to say the least. PMSL... hilarious. Why even bother coming onto DOL when it's so disheartening? Why get so upset if you don't care? Would love to know who the clear 'leaders' and 'followers' are, seeing as you have targeted myself and Longcoat in this thread who is a) a newbie and b) someone I can barely remember even posting in the same thread as before! You need to get over yourself - there are many long term DOLers on this forum who I have had disagreements with and then agreed with them in other topics. I couldn't care less who is posting, sometimes I don't even register who I am responding to. If I belong to a clique, I would sure like to know who is in it, it appears I have been missing out And I don't care how you choose to backtrack over your "hiding behind the computer" comment because any one of the many DOLers I have met will tell you I am exactly the same IRL as I am on the forum. I see you are in QLD, how about you come along to a DOL meet or an obedience trial or any other dog related event and see for yourself. I never said that head collars equate to animal abuse or implied any such thing... ANY tool can be abused, from head collars to a leash to a flat collar etc - that is about the person using it. I don't like head collars for a range of reasons that have been discussed in this thread but just because I don't like them does not mean that I think anyone who is using one is abusing their dog. Edited March 22, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I agree with Huski.I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face. I'd rather use a prong or martingale that (as Longcoat said) is only a short sharp correction than a constant aversive. There's only pressure on the dogs muzzle if they pull against the leash! Otherwise the noose is loose and they are free to pant, bark, etc. If my dog were to keep pulling in a halti I would NOT keep using one and it would be an indicator that it's the wrong tool for that particular dog. I hardly think this thread is a pissing contest - just a discussion. Yeah it's great they have their dogs out - but that doesn't make misusing a tool in a way that can injure or hurt their dogs ok. Who's doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) Who's doing that? The people in the OP who are using their dog's leash to carry their shoes on. Or, to use another example, the people I've seen training their dogs who are wearing head collars and yanking down on them to force the dog into position It makes me sick, the saddest thing is, is that they are training to do obedience which should be about the dog wanting to work for you not being forced to. Or a number of other examples I can give where I've seen people misusing a tool (not just head collars) - sure you could say "at least they are out training their dog!" but that doesn't make misusing a tool and mistreating their dog ok. Edited March 22, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Who's doing that? The people in the OP who are using their dog's leash to carry their shoes on. I guess they thought hanging the thongs on the end of the leash was fine, I wonder if it was pointed out to them whether they would be like "Oh yeah, hm, maybe that is annoying to the dogs!" people need things pointed out sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Who's doing that? The people in the OP who are using their dog's leash to carry their shoes on. I guess they thought hanging the thongs on the end of the leash was fine, I wonder if it was pointed out to them whether they would be like "Oh yeah, hm, maybe that is annoying to the dogs!" people need things pointed out sometimes And had I seen them I probably would have pointed it out (in a friendly manner of course :D) but I just don't think the "at least they are walking their dog" argument makes doing the wrong thing permissible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I did also state that I agreed with your stance in this instance too, and I did have more to say unfortunately I ran out of time. The general feel I get from this forum is that it is very elitist, there are very clear cliques, there are clear 'leaders' and 'followers' and very clearly the ones who post for no reason than to try to get themselves in the good books of the leaders. This is an opinion gathered from reading through many, many threads. If you'll take note of the fact that I joined in October 2009 and my first post wasn't until last week or the week before (can't remember which), it is an opinion that has taken a lot of time to come to. There is a lot that I could get from this forum, but when every second thread seems to dissolve into a competition for who is 'right' or 'wrong' when really there is only a differing of opinion it's very disheartening to say the least. Did you also get this feeling from the discussion Huski and i had? I must say i highly enjoyed it.. I didn't go to bed till late last night despite having an exhausting weekend and having an early start this morning, but i was looking forward to reading the reply and couldn't let it go and had to keep replying. Huski and I are friends on Facebook and chat casually, frequently in the Spitz Breed forum... but i love a good debate and neither Huski or I gave in and continued (and continue!) to have different opinions on the matter. Happypaws, where do i fit in the hierarchy of DOL? I once felt that i was being ganged up on by a few in a very heated discussion and my name (bindii) was used in someone's 'made up story' of a frustrating puppy buyer... Long story, something about microchips containing the name of the breeders and i was all for it... but it resulted in posts going *poof* by the magical fairies of DOL... a few months later when i went looking for who it was that was being a complete.. doofus... in that thread, is someone that i have since had many interesting conversations with and very often agree with. Only, in that particular discussion we had very different opinions! If we all agreed on everything, how boring would life be?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) Did you also get this feeling from the discussion Huski and i had? I must say i highly enjoyed it.. I didn't go to bed till late last night despite having an exhausting weekend and having an early start this morning, but i was looking forward to reading the reply and couldn't let it go and had to keep replying. Huski and I are friends on Facebook and chat casually, frequently in the Spitz Breed forum... but i love a good debate and neither Huski or I gave in and continued (and continue!) to have different opinions on the matter. Haha I'm glad I'm not the only naughty one who stayed up late to "gang up" on you Bindii Maybe you're part of my clique?? Edited March 22, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypaws84 Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I should have listened to Steph.... Oh well, I know better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I really don't understand. No one was having a go at anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I really don't understand. No one was having a go at anyone... Except for Happypaws. I don't get it either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Getting back on topic (as this thread seems to have attracted more than it's fair share of loonies ), as a former Obedience instructor, I always felt that the Halti was the lazy option - for people who really couldn't be bothered actually TRAINING their dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILK Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Getting back on topic (as this thread seems to have attracted more than it's fair share of loonies ), as a former Obedience instructor, I always felt that the Halti was the lazy option - for people who really couldn't be bothered actually TRAINING their dog! I don't necessarily think people are always being lazy. They are somtimes given advice that sounds rational to them by someone they believe is more of an expert on the subject than themself, so they follow this advise without having all of the facts. The option was given to me at a reputable & very popular obedience training school. Having all the facts now I would agree, but as I said earlier I tried a halti with my dog when he was younger. Had I known what I know now I wouldn't have even looked at it as an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 as a former Obedience instructor, I always felt that the Halti was the lazy option - for people who really couldn't be bothered actually TRAINING their dog! I personally don't get it when I see people at obedience using head collars - if you want to trial, you can't have your dog wearing one in the ring, so at some point you will have to train the dog to work without it. Perhaps if they are having a lot of trouble controlling the dog early on, but you see them go up the ranks and you see the tool being used as a crutch - when the dog could work without it with the right methods/approach. Most of the triallers I know start teaching heel with no leash and collar anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I personally don't get it when I see people at obedience using head collars - if you want to trial, you can't have your dog wearing one in the ring, so at some point you will have to train the dog to work without it. You can get through quite a few months of training sometimes before someone tells you that. I've seen people at my club make it all the way into a trialling class before they learned that halti's aren't permitted in the trialling ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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