Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Agree. A halti properly used and fitted is a wonderful boon to dog walkers with dogs who no amount of training will stop pulling. I find it hard to believe that no amount of training can stop a dog from pulling on the leash. There are many trainers out there who won't use head collars and can still teach dogs not to pull... Even if you do use a halti you should still be using a training program along with it. As for halits i have used one and promote their use on any dog that can't be walked on a collar surely walking in a halti is better than not walking at all. I personally don't like head collars (I have no problem with many other training tools out there) but I wouldn't recommend them for 'any' dog that pulls on the leash... there are many pros and cons to head collars including the risk of injury that presents with their use that would make me reluctant to use them, especially with certain types of dogs (i.e. dogs that are prone to lunging). ETA: ILK I agree it is important the dog gets a walk, but head collars are so common place now I see them misused constantly, and used instead of the owner actually training their dog. Some dogs find them highly aversive (including my own dog) and whilst the walk may be enjoyable for the owner because the dog isn't pulling, it can be most unpleasant for the dog, if they are kind of dog who find head collars very aversive and spend the whole walk being 'corrected'. I totally agree Huski :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! A simple test Shelle, take Shyla for a walk on a flat collar and see if she behaves the same as wearing the head collar and doesn't pull. If she pulls on the flat collar as she did previously, the head collar isn't teaching her to behave and is working as an aversive measure when she has it on. It's naive to believe that the head collar doesn't inflict pain as the pain from pulling when wearing the head collar is what makes it work. The dog doesn't pull wearing a head collar because pulling hurts and they behave through discomfort avoidance. The difference with a choker, prong collar, martingale etc when used correctly is that discomfort is applied only when the dog pulls for a short sharp duration, otherwise there is no restriction imposed on a loose leash. In a head collar, there is constant restriction along with the strap over the dog's snout to contend with also. The object of a training tool is to teach the dog a behaviour and then discard it once the behaviour is learned. Loose leash walking can also be achieved without aversives at all from teaching handler focus with food, praise and games. Edited March 21, 2010 by Longcoat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 A simple test Shelle, take Shyla for a walk on a flat collar and see if she behaves the same as wearing the head collar and doesn't pull. If she pulls on the flat collar as she did previously, the head collar isn't teaching her to behave and is working as an aversive measure when she has it on. It's naive to believe that the head collar doesn't inflict pain as the pain from pulling when wearing the head collar is what makes it work. The dog doesn't pull wearing a head collar because pulling hurts and they behave through discomfort avoidance. The difference with a choker, prong collar, martingale etc when used correctly is that discomfort is applied only when the dog pulls for a short sharp duration, otherwise there is no restriction imposed on a loose leash. In a head collar, there is constant restriction along with the strap over the dog's snout to contend with also. The object of a training tool is to teach the dog a behaviour and then discard it once the behaviour is learned.Loose leash walking can also be achieved without aversives at all from teaching handler focus with food, praise and games. Well said Longcoat, I completely agree :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypaws84 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Huski, I realise you're just getting your opinion across, but clearly the people using the GL's have found a way where they are happy, their dogs are happy and they are all safe. IMO Fair enough you have your opinion on what works for YOU with YOUR dog. Shelle and GoldieGirl have what works for THEM and THEIR dogs. While I happen to have the same opinion as you, forcing your opinion on someone is never going to get you anywhere. ETA: I feel the same about Longcoat too atm. I agree but don't think being forceful is helping the situation. Edited March 21, 2010 by happypaws84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Huski, I realise you're just getting your opinion across, but clearly the people using the GL's have found a way where they are happy, their dogs are happy and they are all safe.IMO Fair enough you have your opinion on what works for YOU with YOUR dog. Shelle and GoldieGirl have what works for THEM and THEIR dogs. While I happen to have the same opinion as you, forcing your opinion on someone is never going to get you anywhere. ETA: I feel the same about Longcoat too atm. I agree but don't think being forceful is helping the situation. Happypaws, this is a discussion forum, and as such we are all going to share our opinions on certain training methods and tools. No harm meant by it, it's just a discussion. What a boring place this forum would be if we didn't all have different opinions and experiences to share and talk about. Do you have anything to actually add to the thread or are you just posting to have a stir? Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Happypaws both parties here were just getting their POV across, that is what a forum is for. I didnt feel that Huski and LC were trying to force me to switch, IMHO they seemed concerned for our dogs safety. I have seen haltis used wrongly, Id never do that to my dog, and Id like to say that if my dog ever gets to the point where it isnt working for her then Ill stop using it. One of the reasons why I do use it is because my JRT does pull, and because my pup walks side by side with her I dont want her learning to pull in some sort of competition with Tess, I have shortened Tessas lead and using my voice I keep Lexi by my side, but because Tess doesnt have her full length if Lexi tries to walk side by side with Tess, she isnt getting any contact with the GL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) A simple test Shelle, take Shyla for a walk on a flat collar and see if she behaves the same as wearing the head collar and doesn't pull. If she pulls on the flat collar as she did previously, the head collar isn't teaching her to behave and is working as an aversive measure when she has it on. It's naive to believe that the head collar doesn't inflict pain as the pain from pulling when wearing the head collar is what makes it work. The dog doesn't pull wearing a head collar because pulling hurts and they behave through discomfort avoidance. The difference with a choker, prong collar, martingale etc when used correctly is that discomfort is applied only when the dog pulls for a short sharp duration, otherwise there is no restriction imposed on a loose leash. In a head collar, there is constant restriction along with the strap over the dog's snout to contend with also. The object of a training tool is to teach the dog a behaviour and then discard it once the behaviour is learned.Loose leash walking can also be achieved without aversives at all from teaching handler focus with food, praise and games. I was sitting here reading this, getting frustrated at how OT this is getting, but i can't let this one go ... It doesn't conflict pain, it's annoying to the dog that it can't look forward when it walks in front, so the dog realises if it walks by the owners side they can look straight in front. That's how it works. A clever dog will not keep pulling because it would prefer to have it's eyes the direction it is going. I can understand that some dogs might never adjust to the feeling of it around their muzzle and that some may just be so determined to pull that it just freaks them out all together, but if it works for the dog, why not? Not every dog owner wants to have an obedience titled dog, they just want to enjoy a walk with their pet and if everyone (including the dog) is relaxed about the situation then i don't know what the problem is. I don't use halti's or GLs (which i think is actually just a brand name for the same thing) I haven't found that I have needed to with my dogs, and i *do* want obedience titled dogs, so i'm making the extra effort... but i am open to the fact that others might need it with their pet and, who knows, maybe one day i'll need to use one as well. Sometimes it's good to have an open mind about things, it can help one learn and grow too. ETA: I work in the animal industry and see all different types of dog owners and while i see some very weird and wacky things, i have not seen a halti being used incorrectly and it certainly doesn't appear to be the most, or to be becoming the most common 'mode of transport' (so to speak) Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 GoldenGirl, I noticed you are in QLD, are you in Brissy? You should pop along to a DOL meet sometime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypaws84 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Happypaws, this is a discussion forum, and as such we are all going to share our opinions on certain training methods and tools. No harm meant by it, it's just a discussion. What a boring place this forum would be if we didn't all have different opinions and experiences to share and talk about.Do you have anything to actually add to the thread or are you just posting to have a stir? :D ... Very cute response... My bit to add to the thread was to remind you that while your methods work for you, forcing your methods onto others won't work for them. I agree that this is a discussion forum, but nothing can be discussed if you cannot respect that there are methods other than the ones you know and the ones that work for you that WILL work for others and they WILL be just as successful with their dogs. It didn't seem like a discussion, in fact it seemed you were picking to pieces other peoples posts and trying to make them feel guilty for using the equipment that works for them. That IMO is disgusting and I'm trying to work out what it is that makes you feel you have the right to do that... I'm still trying to work out why I would be posting for just a stir? That would be a waste of my very valuable time, and it is definitely not worth wasting that time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen... Just my honest opinion. Oh, and that is the way it looks to a new member. This doesn't seem like all that friendly a place, or at the very least it is very cliquey... Edited March 21, 2010 by happypaws84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) ... It doesn't conflict pain, it's annoying to the dog that it can't look forward when it walks in front, so the dog realises if it walks by the owners side they can look straight in front. That's how it works. A clever dog will not keep pulling because it would prefer to have it's eyes the direction it is going. I can understand that some dogs might never adjust to the feeling of it around their muzzle and that some may just be so determined to pull that it just freaks them out all together, but if it works for the dog, why not? Not every dog owner wants to have an obedience titled dog, they just want to enjoy a walk with their pet and if everyone (including the dog) is relaxed about the situation then i don't know what the problem is. Bindii I mean this in the least pushy way but LC is right - head collars wouldn't work if they weren't aversive to the dog on some level. Perhaps "pain" is the wrong word, but it is naive to think that they don't cause some level of discomfort or unpleasantness otherwise the dog would continue to pull. When the dog pulls on a head collar, it pulls their head down and/or to the side - you can't tell me that isn't unpleasant to have your head jerked down or to the side - that is why head collars work just like many other aversive tools. One of my biggest pet hates is people who thinks head collars are not aversive like prongs, check chains, or any other corrective tool. They are all aversive on some level otherwise they wouldn't work. Whether it works for the dog is depends on what you define as 'works' - I have seen people who walk their dog on a head collar and the moment it comes off the dog pulls like a steam train. In that instance, is the head collar really working to teach the dog not to pull? **purely posting for the purpose of having a interesting discussion ** Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) My bit to add to the thread was to remind you that while your methods work for you, forcing your methods onto others won't work for them. I agree that this is a discussion forum, but nothing can be discussed if you cannot respect that there are methods other than the ones you know and the ones that work for you that WILL work for others and they WILL be just as successful with their dogs. I'm not forcing my methods on to others, I am simply having a discussion on the pros/cons of the methods. I already acknowledged there are instances where head collars can work well for the right dog. It didn't seem like a discussion, in fact it seemed you were picking to pieces other peoples posts and trying to make them feel guilty for using the equipment that works for them. That IMO is disgusting and I'm trying to work out what it is that makes you feel you have the right to do that... Well GoldenGirl has already posted saying that's not how she felt my posts came across, perhaps you're still upset about the thread in the puppy forum when I disagreed with the method you suggested? I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty at all. We are simply having a discussion about training methods. I'm still trying to work out why I would be posting for just a stir? That would be a waste of my very valuable time, and it is definitely not worth wasting that time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen... Are you serious? Posting just to tell others that they are disgusting and forcing their opinions on to others is posting purely to have a stir and cause trouble - you aren't contributing to the topic of the thread by telling people not to share their opinion. Just my honest opinion. Oh, and that is the way it looks to a new member. This doesn't seem like all that friendly a place, or at the very least it is very cliquey... For someone who doesn't "waste their valuable time on anonymous faces hiding behind a computer screen" it is sure coming across like I've upset or offended you on a personal level - now we're unfriendly and cliquey? Why are you so upset and offended if we're not worth wasting time on? BTW - I don't know how we are being cliquey, Longcoat is a new poster here too and I have no idea who they are! And BTW - I've met at least 100 DOLers in real life, and I am sure they would be more than happy to tell you I am far from someone who "hides" behind my computer screen Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Am i missing something? The discomfort occurs when the dog pulls, not when it is walking nicely beside it's owner... So the dog puts two and two together and it doesn't pull = no more discomfort. No one is disputing that it may not be the right tool for all dogs, but if the dog *does* walk nicely beside it's owner when the halti is on, then there is no discomfort. It has become a learned behaviour that halti on = don't pull. Halti off, no discomfort when pulling = pull! Who cares what happens when they don't have it off... why must it only be a temporary tool if the dog is comfortable with it on? HappyPaws, I thought the exact same thing when i first joined this forum... Until i realised it's just a whole lot of crazy dog ladies (and a couple of guys ) who really care, and have really strong feelings and opinions on dog ownership/breeding/showing/etc etc. I *agree* that sometimes comments sound very pushy etc etc, but i know Huski from her posts and she's alright i promise. (even though i think we almost completely disagree on this one) ETA: back to the topic of haltis etc... How is it different from a check chain? would you like your it jerked and pulled around your neck? That is discomfort too. So the dog learns when it is wearing that collar not to pull. I know myself that my pug walks like an idiot with a flat collar on, but he sees the martingale being put on and he knows not to pull because of a combination of the noise of the chain and the discomfort he feels when i 'correct' him. I see that in no way different to a halti *if the dog learns not to continue pulling* Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~JessyBee~ Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I must agree with Huski and LC, goldengirl85 (nice name by the way lol) I think you would be much better off taking the time to teach your little one how to walk nicely on a flat collar, you are right, she will soon be a big strong dog and will want to chase birds and bunnies i have always walked Beau on a flat collar and he has perfect walking manners even with fantastic distractions like bunnies! I am almost always walking him with the stroller sohe needs to behave. Remember when she us at the vets/boarding kennels i doubt they would bother putting a harness on her so she needs to know how to walk on a normal collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Remember when she us at the vets/boarding kennels i doubt they would bother putting a harness on her so she needs to know how to walk on a normal collar True but there are far worse/more annoying things to deal with than a dog that pulls on it's lead.* I don't care if a dog pulls while it's in our clinic and i'm moving it from our hospital back to it's owner etc, but i feel for them if it does that all the time at home, while they are walking it. If the owner has control of the dog or has their own method that works for them, then *such as being cage aggressive/not crate trained resulting in barking and other annoying habits (my own pug!!) Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Am i missing something? The discomfort occurs when the dog pulls, not when it is walking nicely beside it's owner... So the dog puts two and two together and it doesn't pull = no more discomfort. Yes which is exactly what LC said, or am I missing something? ...the pain* from pulling when wearing the head collar is what makes it work. *or discomfort No one is disputing that it may not be the right tool for all dogs, but if the dog *does* walk nicely beside it's owner when the halti is on, then there is no discomfort. It has become a learned behaviour that halti on = don't pull. Halti off, no discomfort when pulling = pull! Who cares what happens when they don't have it off... why must it only be a temporary tool if the dog is comfortable with it on? Some dogs find the head collar sitting over their muzzle aversive even when they aren't pulling - I have seen dogs shut down just from having the head collar put on, without the leash even being attached, so there can be dogs who find them uncomfortable even when they aren't pulling. If the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the head collars comes off, doesn't it make it clear that the head collar is aversive to the dog on some level in order for it to work? If they start pulling as soon as it comes off, what have you taught the dog? Isn't it better to teach the dog not to pull so you don't have to forever rely on a tool like a head collar in order to walk them? What happens if the dog learns to pull on the head collar as some dogs do? HappyPaws, I thought the exact same thing when i first joined this forum... Until i realised it's just a whole lot of crazy dog ladies (and a couple of guys :D ) who really care, and have really strong feelings and opinions on dog ownership/breeding/showing/etc etc. I *agree* that sometimes comments sound very pushy etc etc, but i know Huski from her posts and she's alright i promise. (even though i think we almost completely disagree on this one) Those damn crazy dog people :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~JessyBee~ Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Nope I can't stand dogs who have no lead manners even just when visiting the clinic! (also dogs who almost take your fingers off getting a treat!) Each to their own I guess. I would prefer to know anyone could walk my dogs on any lead if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Nope I can't stand dogs who have no lead manners even just when visiting the clinic! (also dogs who almost take your fingers off getting a treat!) Each to their own I guess. I would prefer to know anyone could walk my dogs on any lead if needed :D I like to think this too, although I know it's not probable with Daisy - she will walk perfectly on leash for me on a simple flat collar but hand her over to my mum and she totally takes advantage of the fact mum is a real pushover and the leash manners she has with me go out the window! Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~JessyBee~ Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Daisy is just too smart for her own good Huski! My little ones are the worst! Mind you I think the littlies tend to get away with more than big dogs do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I must agree with Huski and LC, goldengirl85 (nice name by the way lol) I think you would be much better off taking the time to teach your little one how to walk nicely on a flat collar, you are right, she will soon be a big strong dog and will want to chase birds and bunnies i have always walked Beau on a flat collar and he has perfect walking manners even with fantastic distractions like bunnies! I am almost always walking him with the stroller sohe needs to behave. Remember when she us at the vets/boarding kennels i doubt they would bother putting a harness on her so she needs to know how to walk on a normal collar Lol, I wondered why it wouldnt accept goldengirl for my forum name :D If you guys have any suggestions on teaching her to walk by my side with just a flat collar be my guest, Im a first time big dog owner and I joined this forum to learn, but keep in mind when Im walking Im with a JRT who not only doesnt want to stop, she pulls, i use the GL because that keeps her back by my side Someone noted they are the same thing with a different name, from what Ive seen Haltis sit lower on their nose, almost pulling their nose down when they pull, a properly fitted GL sits right at the base of their nose, just below their eyes, still pulling on their face I admit, but I feel this one would be more comfortable than the Halti Huski, yes Im in Brisbane, Im a very new Brisbanite, I moved here in October Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindii Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 If the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the head collars comes off, doesn't it make it clear that the head collar is aversive to the dog on some level in order for it to work?* If they start pulling as soon as it comes off, what have you taught the dog? Isn't it better to teach the dog not to pull so you don't have to forever rely on a tool like a head collar in order to walk them? *In the same way a check chain or halti works for many dog owners. What happens if the dog learns to pull on the head collar as some dogs do? These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use. I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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