Couple Using Halti's On Thier 2 Malamutes

[huski]

Daisy is just too smart for her own good Huski!

She's funny... she doesn't comply to commands well when people other than me give them too (not that I actually mind that) :D

[huski]

If you guys have any suggestions on teaching her to walk by my side with just a flat collar be my guest, Im a first time big dog owner and I joined this forum to learn, but keep in mind when Im walking Im with a JRT who not only doesnt want to stop, she pulls, i use the GL because that keeps her back by my side

Someone noted they are the same thing with a different name, from what Ive seen Haltis sit lower on their nose, almost pulling their nose down when they pull, a properly fitted GL sits right at the base of their nose, just below their eyes, still pulling on their face I admit, but I feel this one would be more comfortable than the Halti

Huski, yes Im in Brisbane, Im a very new Brisbanite, I moved here in October

Hey GG - if you are in Brissy I can refer you to a great trainer here :D Will PM you the details.

These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use.

I think how aversive the dog finds a particular tool is dependent on the dog, and if the tool is appropriate for them, and if it's being used correctly etc etc. For Micha, a head collar was way more aversive for him than a martingale. I wouldn't use a head collar the same way I would use a (for eg) martingale, so I disagree that the method is the same

I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully

Because it's a crutch, and what happens if you don't have the head collar one day and are required to walk the dog without one? Because IMO it's fairer to the dog to actually teach them not to pull, which is not being done if you are forever reliant on a tool like a head collar to walk them on. It's easier in the long run to have a dog who understands that pulling will not get them where they want to go. Suzanne Clothier put it far more eloquently than I did

[GoldenGirl85]

Yeah Im in Bris Huski

I havnt clipped her back onto her collar for a couple of weeks now, Ill see how she goes tomorrow when I go to her obedience lesson

[~JessyBee~]

Huski mine are the same - particularly with OH because they know he will give up!

For me they are (nearly) perfect!

goldengirl85 I would be walking your baby and the older dog seperatley until you have both under control and walking nicely on lead. What methods are you using whilst she has the halti on? Food is great of course to entice her back into the position you want her and verbal praise and treat when she has stayed there for a few steps, gradually longer and longer between praise. I still tell Beau he is a good boy when he is walking.

Its very confusing now reading threads where people just say goldengirl or GG - that's me

[all that glitters]

Holy mackeral I go for a shower and come back to dozens more posts!

Am i missing something?

The discomfort occurs when the dog pulls, not when it is walking nicely beside it's owner... So the dog puts two and two together and it doesn't pull = no more discomfort.

No one is disputing that it may not be the right tool for all dogs, but if the dog *does* walk nicely beside it's owner when the halti is on, then there is no discomfort. It has become a learned behaviour that halti on = don't pull. Halti off, no discomfort when pulling = pull! Who cares what happens when they don't have it off... why must it only be a temporary tool if the dog is comfortable with it on?

Agree! Particularly the bold part

If the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the head collars comes off, doesn't it make it clear that the head collar is aversive to the dog on some level in order for it to work?* If they start pulling as soon as it comes off, what have you taught the dog? Isn't it better to teach the dog not to pull so you don't have to forever rely on a tool like a head collar in order to walk them?

*In the same way a check chain or halti works for many dog owners.

What happens if the dog learns to pull on the head collar as some dogs do?

I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully

Also agree!

It's not a medieval torture tool, it's as harsh as a check chain could be in the wrong hands :D Honestly the head band goes around behind the ears (Where a collar is most effective anyway) and sits quite snug, and the noseband is lightweight and isn't even tight, the dog can bark, pant, eat and be a normal dog with the nose band on... it's the feeling of having something on their muzzle that they have to get used to, and if introduced to it nicely they don't hate it (or in my experience that was the way, probably different for other doggies though!). And yes Shyla has learnt that if she pulls ahead in it her head turns to the side a bit, that is annoying! Like Bindii said. So she walks/trots by my side and I hold the leash in one hand, sometimes with one finger and I thoroughly enjoy our walks now! As does Shyla, she LOVES the word walk and sees the gentle leader coming and closes her muzzle so I can slip it over and clip it on. Then we're out the door and she's sniffing away at the world! No qualms at all. I think it has to do with the collar part sitting right up behind the ears too, not down on the neck like flat collars etc. And the gentle leader only tightens on the muzzle when the dog pulls, otherwise it's loose!

It's cool though it doesn't bother me what others think, some people try to push their point (not naming names LOL) as long as we're all happy with our dogs that's the main thing and of course our choices along the way will differ

Edited March 21, 2010 by ~ShelleAndShyla~

[Bindii]

These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use.

I think how aversive the dog finds a particular tool is dependent on the dog, and if the tool is appropriate for them, and if it's being used correctly etc etc. For Micha, a head collar was way more aversive for him than a martingale. I wouldn't use a head collar the same way I would use a (for eg) martingale, so I disagree that the method is the same

Micha didn't like it over his nose, but others that don't care about it over their noses have continued to walk well, happy and relaxed as they have learnt not to pull. Micha never got to that stage so it was only a 'scary' or 'weird' thing for him. Perhaps he has a slightly softer temperament, or a slightly more sensitive nose than those who have had success with it. Whatever the reason, of course you should not use it on Micha! And no one is saying you should. What if he had had a similar reaction to the noise of the chain on a martingale? I'm sure it happens. Do you think it's right that the owners of those dogs then go and say how cruel it is to have a chain on a dog as it causes them discomfort?

We really are going around in circles :D

I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully

Because it's a crutch, and what happens if you don't have the head collar one day and are required to walk the dog without one? Because IMO it's fairer to the dog to actually teach them not to pull, which is not being done if you are forever reliant on a tool like a head collar to walk them on. It's easier in the long run to have a dog who understands that pulling will not get them where they want to go. Suzanne Clothier put it far more eloquently than I did

So do you walk your dogs on a flat collar now? Or better still, how about we all walk our dogs down the street without a lead or collar, because ultimately, they should have been taught to walk by our sides by now!

Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii

[GoldenGirl85]

Huski mine are the same - particularly with OH because they know he will give up!

For me they are (nearly) perfect!

goldengirl85 I would be walking your baby and the older dog seperatley until you have both under control and walking nicely on lead. What methods are you using whilst she has the halti on? Food is great of course to entice her back into the position you want her and verbal praise and treat when she has stayed there for a few steps, gradually longer and longer between praise. I still tell Beau he is a good boy when he is walking.

Its very confusing now reading threads where people just say goldengirl or GG - that's me

Im GG85 on the Retriever thread, Im happy to stick with that lol

Huski has given me details for her trainer, Ill look into her for Tess, as for Lexi Ill see how she goes tomorrow at the agility club, she has been on the GL for a couple of weeks now

[huski]

Micha didn't like it over his nose, but others that don't care about it over their noses have continued to walk well, happy and relaxed as they have learnt not to pull. Micha never got to that stage so it was only a 'scary' or 'weird' thing for him. Perhaps he has a slightly softer temperament, or a slightly more sensitive nose than those who have had success with it. Whatever the reason, of course you should not use it on Micha! And no one is saying you should. What if he had had a similar reaction to the noise of the chain on a martingale? I'm sure it happens. Do you think it's right that the owners of those dogs then go and say how cruel it is to have a chain on a dog as it causes them discomfort?

We really are going around in circles

I was using Micha as an example of how it can be different for different dogs and how I would use two tools differently, as I have said several times, there are some dogs for whom head collars work

Please show me anywhere that I have called head collars cruel?? All I have said about head collar is that they wouldn't work if they didn't cause some level of discomfort just like many other training tools. My issue with head collars isn't about it being an aversive tool. I have no issues with prong collars or e-collars or many other aversive tools. I don't think head collars are the most effective tool out there for many reasons which are outlined nicely in the article I linked to earlier :D

So do you walk your dogs on a flat collar now? Or better still, how about we all walk our dogs down the street without a lead or collar, because ultimately, they should have been taught to walk by our sides by now!

Yes, I do walk them on flat collars, with the exception of Micha who has to be walked on a martingale for safety reasons as he can slip flat collars.

I have no problem with people using tools, I have used them myself and totally agree they are sometimes necessary, but I do think that they should be used as a tool, not as a training method, and that the goal should be eventually not having to use them. Putting a head collar on your dog and using it as a replacement for actually training your dog is lazy, IMO, and can back fire if the dog learns to pull on the tool anyway. Head collars, if being used properly, will be used along with a good training program.

And you're just being silly with your no leash and collar statement - that has nothing to do with teaching your dog not to pull on the leash. Dogs pull on the leash because they learn that's how to get where they want to go. Training them not to pull is about teaching them that pulling doesn't get them anywhere. You could have a dog who is unreliable off leash who still has decent leash manners - the two do not go hand in hand

Edited March 21, 2010 by huski

[Bindii]

I was using Micha as an example of how it can be different for different dogs and how I would use two tools differently, as I have said several times, there are some dogs for whom head collars work

which is why I said

We really are going around in circles

Please show me anywhere that I have called head collars cruel?? All I have said about head collar is that they wouldn't work if they didn't cause some level of discomfort just like many other training tools. My issue with head collars isn't about it being an aversive tool. I have no issues with prong collars or e-collars or many other aversive tools. I don't think head collars are the most effective tool out there for many reasons which are outlined nicely in the article I linked to earlier :D

You never said they were cruel, but it was suggested (not by you) that they inflicted pain - which is cruel. Discomfort - as we have a greed - is caused, but is also caused by other training tools, to which extent depends on the individual dog.

So do you walk your dogs on a flat collar now? Or better still, how about we all walk our dogs down the street without a lead or collar, because ultimately, they should have been taught to walk by our sides by now!

Yes, I do walk them on flat collars, with the exception of Micha who has to be walked on a martingale for safety reasons as he can slip flat collars.

I have no problem with people using tools, I have used them myself and totally agree they are sometimes necessary, but I do think that they should be used as a tool, not as a training method, and that the goal should be eventually not having to use them. Putting a head collar on your dog and using it as a replacement for actually training your dog is lazy, IMO, and can back fire if the dog learns to pull on the tool anyway. Head collars, if being used properly, will be used along with a good training program.

So this discussion, in particular your opinion, is not unique to haltis... you feel this about all training tools? Whether that be chains, martingales or the somewhat infamous halti? Then great! I think now that I know that I'm happier. I think that it is a very fair opinion and I completely see where you are coming from. ETA: but i can see how for a pet owner, if they see and feel that the dog is happy being walked with whatever tool then i personally don't see the issue. But that is JMHO in the same way it's JYHO that it's lazy.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii

[huski]

Bindii - yes I feel no tool should be used as a crutch and should only be used appropriately with a good training program. I do however have a dislike for head collars for various reasons which means I would never use one myself, and would probably never recommend them. You can have a read of the Suzanne Clothier article I posted earlier if you want to get a good idea of what I dislike about them. That however does not change the fact that they work well for some dogs and owners and I have no problem if it's being used properly and is working for them.

I don't like to see anyone putting a bandaid on a training problem which is what a head collar becomes if you use it forever with no goal to stop. That can go for any training tool but is something I see happen a lot with head collars.

[Red Fox]

I agree with Huski.

I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see

I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face. I'd rather use a prong or martingale that (as Longcoat said) is only a short sharp correction than a constant aversive.

[Bindii]

I agree with Huski.

I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see

Many happy puppies do that the first time a flat collar and lead is put on them too.

I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face.

How do you explain the people on here that have completely contented happy dogs walking with a head collar on? Excited to see the collar come out for a walk? Happily allowing their owner to apply it?

I just want to add again - i don't use a head collar, and i don't recommend them myself (to clients) because i think there are other avenues that can be taken before using one, but when someone is at their whits end... i mean, common on... as i've said repeatedly, it's their family dog, they just want to enjoy a nice walk, they don't want to obedience title their dog, they'll be lucky to teach it to sit, but the dog will live a wonderful happy life with a loving family who play with it and feed it and if the dog is happy with it on, what is the problem?

Owning a dog to me is my whole entire life. Everything i do revolves around them but the fact is, it is not like that for everyone. I have ferrets too, and yes they are very cool and i take very good care of them and they get everything a ferret needs... but did you know that people train the ferrets to do tricks, and they have racing competitions, and there are official breeders and BYBers, and society meetings every month? am i there? Nope.. but i'm there for the dog ones! Am i awful for not teaching my ferrets to ever not nip my feet? No, i just wear socks. Some might feel i've never met the needs of my ferrets, and that i was very lazy to not ever completely train them not to nibble toes, but they're happy, i'm happy with my socks on... why can't someone and their dog be happy with a head collar?

Edited March 21, 2010 by Bindii

[GoldenGirl85]

I think everybody needs to agree that everyone has had different experiences with head collars and leave it at that

One of my dogs loves hers, the other I am considering getting one, but Huski has given me another option for her, Ill look into this trainers services when I arrive back in Brisbane after my holiday

[Longcoat]

If the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the head collars comes off, doesn't it make it clear that the head collar is aversive to the dog on some level in order for it to work?* If they start pulling as soon as it comes off, what have you taught the dog? Isn't it better to teach the dog not to pull so you don't have to forever rely on a tool like a head collar in order to walk them?

*In the same way a check chain or halti works for many dog owners.

What happens if the dog learns to pull on the head collar as some dogs do?

These are the dogs you must do something else for. I think we're actually agreeing and have been the whole time If it works for the dog, let them use it. The only thing i don't agree with is pain/discomfort being any more than that of other tools such as a check or martingale - because the discomfort is only there until the dog works out how to stop it, the method works the same regardless of which you use.

I also disagree that you have to stop using it after a while even if it's working perfectly fine, even if the dog seems comfortable, if it doesn't pull, and if you have no plans to ever need your dog to walk well without a lead (such as obedience trialing etc) No one's explained that one fully

Bindii, well trained obedient dogs shouldn't need a leash at all and will work under voice control which is what good handlers and trainers work towards. There was another thread recently about leash couplings snapping and equipment failure which happens resulting in a loose dog. Is the halti trained dog going to recall or stay by your side on the centre island of a busy road???. If you need any equipment to maintain obedience, the dog is not yet trained effectively.

Leash pulling is common to the novice handler, so common and frustrating that companies have capitalised on this by designing contraptions for management of the behaviour. The head collar is NOT a training tool, it has been tried and tested over and over again by experienced and accomplished trainers and handlers with the same result. It simply "manages" a behaviour and nothing else. Ask any accomplished trainer or handler, not a trainer's assistant from an obedience club, a trainer/handler that has achieved something in their career, a proper K9 specialist trainer who can achieve millimetre perfection in dog obedience off leash with titles under their belt. NONE will recommend head collars for any dog to achieve a loose leash walk because quite simply, a loose leash walk is not that hard to train when you learn how to do it :D

Edited March 21, 2010 by Longcoat

[Bindii]

Longboat I completely see where you are coming from with regards to training. It enhances my view even more that if the average dog owner chooses to use one for a pleasureable walk-if the dog is comfortable and understands they should not pull while wearing it- why must they cease using it one day?

I have two dogs who are obedience trained, perfect offlead heeling and have great recall at obedience, but do you recall a thread a wrote recently about my dog who chased a rabbit and just missed being hit by two cars? Of course I thought I had him under 100% effective control and that I had done everything to prevent a situation like this. When it came to the crunch, I was wrong.. I never used a halti... Rope choker and martingale and as a said, offlead work too.

[Sue & Waldo]

To return to the OP-I was showing a dog lover DOL and clicked on this thread. A look of total amazement and confusion and almost embarassment came over her face.

It turns out that in her state (USA) a thong is a g-string. She thought the owners had taken them off and attached them to the lead.

Just had to share that one to lighten the start to the week!

[Red Ruby]

A couple were out walking their dogs...maybe a lazy couple who didn't want to carry their own thongs...but they were exercising their dogs none the less...unlike most pet owners who are lucky to venture out in the yard to see their dogs once a week!!

Why does every discussion have to turn into a pissing contest about who knows best?

[huski]

I hardly think this thread is a pissing contest - just a discussion.

Yeah it's great they have their dogs out - but that doesn't make misusing a tool in a way that can injure or hurt their dogs ok.

[Red Fox]

Many happy puppies do that the first time a flat collar and lead is put on them too.

No, this was completely different. I have seen puppies who are uncomfortable or annoyed at wearing a collar or a leash, I have even seen them sit there and refuse to move. But I have never seen one completey shut down on that level. There is a world of difference between the two.

How do you explain the people on here that have completely contented happy dogs walking with a head collar on? Excited to see the collar come out for a walk? Happily allowing their owner to apply it?

And my dog is happy to see his prong collar come out :D It means 'We're going for a walk'. I'm not saying that all dogs will react badly but there are a good percentage that do...

If a dog associates a head collar with walking then no doubt they will be excited to see it and wont have a problem with the owner putting it on them.

But here's a question- If a dog is so happy to wear a head collar and is completely un-affected by it at all then why bother even using it? What are you achieving when the dog could just as easily learn to walk on a flat collar?

As far as the pain is concerned, I can't see how having pressure put on the sensitive nerve endings around the face or having the neck pulled sideways continuously would NOT be painful in the long run

I just want to add again - i don't use a head collar, and i don't recommend them myself (to clients) because i think there are other avenues that can be taken before using one, but when someone is at their whits end... i mean, common on... as i've said repeatedly, it's their family dog, they just want to enjoy a nice walk, they don't want to obedience title their dog, they'll be lucky to teach it to sit, but the dog will live a wonderful happy life with a loving family who play with it and feed it and if the dog is happy with it on, what is the problem?

Owning a dog to me is my whole entire life. Everything i do revolves around them but the fact is, it is not like that for everyone. I have ferrets too, and yes they are very cool and i take very good care of them and they get everything a ferret needs... but did you know that people train the ferrets to do tricks, and they have racing competitions, and there are official breeders and BYBers, and society meetings every month? am i there? Nope.. but i'm there for the dog ones! Am i awful for not teaching my ferrets to ever not nip my feet? No, i just wear socks. Some might feel i've never met the needs of my ferrets, and that i was very lazy to not ever completely train them not to nibble toes, but they're happy, i'm happy with my socks on... why can't someone and their dog be happy with a head collar?

Yeah it's great that they are walking their dogs. And I'd rather see a dog that is walked on a head collar than a dog that is not walked at all.

To be honest I had nothing to say to the OP re the thongs on the haltis. no, it's probably not great for the dogs but hey if it wasn't bothering them then it's not the end of the world is it? They were out being walked on the beach with their owners rather than sitting at home in their backyard like many dogs are left to do.

I do however have an issue with those that think a head collar is the be all and end all, or the only way that a dog can be taught not to pull.

IMO they are a quick fix and not a long term solution. There are plenty of better options out there anyway

I think everybody needs to agree that everyone has had different experiences with head collars and leave it at that

One of my dogs loves hers, the other I am considering getting one, but Huski has given me another option for her, Ill look into this trainers services when I arrive back in Brisbane after my holiday

Agreed GG I'll be intereted to hear how you go with the trainer too

[Longcoat]

Longboat I completely see where you are coming from with regards to training. It enhances my view even more that if the average dog owner chooses to use one for a pleasureable walk-if the dog is comfortable and understands they should not pull while wearing it- why must they cease using it one day?

I have two dogs who are obedience trained, perfect offlead heeling and have great recall at obedience, but do you recall a thread a wrote recently about my dog who chased a rabbit and just missed being hit by two cars? Of course I thought I had him under 100% effective control and that I had done everything to prevent a situation like this. When it came to the crunch, I was wrong.. I never used a halti... Rope choker and martingale and as a said, offlead work too.

This is just my opinion Bindii, but the average person owning a dog takes on an obligation to train a dog in basic obedience for the sake of the dog, themselves, and everyone else who comes into connection with that dog. Loose leash walking, sit, come and stay is not particularly hi-tech training, infact most 10 year old children can master the technique when taught correctly which should be part and parcel of dog ownership.

Teaching a loose leash walk free of bandaid equipment halti's etc, also teaches a higher level of general control that will spill over into other obedience activities in the home and back yard. Foundation training done properly I believe is a must for general obedience that every pet dog should attain and every owner should master.