ILK Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I'd agree that attaching additional weight to a halti is unfair to the dog. When I first got my boy he was uncontrollable on leash so with trainers we tried a halti. Talk about a dog having a nervous breakdown!! He hated it. He is perfect now of course with training on a leash. Sometimes owners purchase these items without any real knowledge on what they are doing, so they don't understand the pressure a thong or two may place on the muzzle. Maybe you could have politely explained it to them and they may have removed the thongs immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 In defense of halti - users, I guess I am one of those with a 'halti mentality'.I have used haltis with my poodle x for many years and it has given us many peaceful and relaxing walks together. She was an awful 'pull till you choke' kind of dog when I first picked her up from the pound. Haltis have their legitimate uses. But I do agree that carrying thongs is not one of them. Halti's do have their ligitimate uses for people preferring a suppression device instead of training their dog I agree. Given that using a halti for "many years" confirms that it doesn't teach the dog how to walk nicely as a training tool otherwise, you would use a halti for a couple weeks to train the dog then discard it as you do with a choker, prong collar or any other worthwhile training device. A well trained dog doesn't need a collar and leash at all as an end result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) 'Mother Moocher' date='21st Mar 2010 - 12:39 PM' post='4407344']Haltis have their legitimate uses. But I do agree that carrying thongs is not one of them. Agree. A halti properly used and fitted is a wonderful boon to dog walkers with dogs who no amount of training will stop pulling. I am not convinced that a dog exists who can't be taught with suitable training methods not to pull on the leash. Too many people IMHO are too fast in blaming the dog for behaviours which are not the dog's fault, but the fault of the handler. Edited March 21, 2010 by Longcoat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I'd agree that attaching additional weight to a halti is unfair to the dog. When I first got my boy he was uncontrollable on leash so with trainers we tried a halti. Talk about a dog having a nervous breakdown!! He hated it. He is perfect now of course with training on a leash. Sometimes owners purchase these items without any real knowledge on what they are doing, so they don't understand the pressure a thong or two may place on the muzzle.Maybe you could have politely explained it to them and they may have removed the thongs immediately. There are many reasonable dog trainers out there like there are poor trainers and great trainers, but I am yet to know of a great trainer who is formally accomplished in high level K9 activities to ever recommend or use a head collar to teach a dog to walk nicely on leash. Most accomplished trainers despise head collars and the one's recommending halti's are trainers that I would question are the right trainers to be assisting me with my dog's behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILK Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I'd agree that attaching additional weight to a halti is unfair to the dog. When I first got my boy he was uncontrollable on leash so with trainers we tried a halti. Talk about a dog having a nervous breakdown!! He hated it. He is perfect now of course with training on a leash. Sometimes owners purchase these items without any real knowledge on what they are doing, so they don't understand the pressure a thong or two may place on the muzzle.Maybe you could have politely explained it to them and they may have removed the thongs immediately. There are many reasonable dog trainers out there like there are poor trainers and great trainers, but I am yet to know of a great trainer who is formally accomplished in high level K9 activities to ever recommend or use a head collar to teach a dog to walk nicely on leash. Most accomplished trainers despise head collars and the one's recommending halti's are trainers that I would question are the right trainers to be assisting me with my dog's behaviour. Did I not say we "tried" a halti. An accomplished trainer has seen it all and is willing to try what suits the dog & owner. I also stated that my dog is now perfect on leash!! Don't be bias against one product, because what may not work for one will work for another. The most important thing is that the dog gets a walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILK Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Sorry, I will add not just a walk, but an enjoyable walk. They can't do that if their owner is stressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Agree. A halti properly used and fitted is a wonderful boon to dog walkers with dogs who no amount of training will stop pulling. I find it hard to believe that no amount of training can stop a dog from pulling on the leash. There are many trainers out there who won't use head collars and can still teach dogs not to pull... Even if you do use a halti you should still be using a training program along with it. As for halits i have used one and promote their use on any dog that can't be walked on a collar surely walking in a halti is better than not walking at all. I personally don't like head collars (I have no problem with many other training tools out there) but I wouldn't recommend them for 'any' dog that pulls on the leash... there are many pros and cons to head collars including the risk of injury that presents with their use that would make me reluctant to use them, especially with certain types of dogs (i.e. dogs that are prone to lunging). ETA: ILK I agree it is important the dog gets a walk, but head collars are so common place now I see them misused constantly, and used instead of the owner actually training their dog. Some dogs find them highly aversive (including my own dog) and whilst the walk may be enjoyable for the owner because the dog isn't pulling, it can be most unpleasant for the dog, if they are kind of dog who find head collars very aversive and spend the whole walk being 'corrected'. Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Knickers in a twist I'd say :laugh: Some people need to chillax a little! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I personally don't like head collars (I have no problem with many other training tools out there) but I wouldn't recommend them for 'any' dog that pulls on the leash... there are many pros and cons to head collars including the risk of injury that presents with their use that would make me reluctant to use them, especially with certain types of dogs (i.e. dogs that are prone to lunging).ETA: ILK I agree it is important the dog gets a walk, but head collars are so common place now I see them misused constantly, and used instead of the owner actually training their dog. Some dogs find them highly aversive (including my own dog) and whilst the walk may be enjoyable for the owner because the dog isn't pulling, it can be most unpleasant for the dog, if they are kind of dog who find head collars very aversive and spend the whole walk being 'corrected'. This is why I got a gentle leader for my pup early, I used to just put it on her around the house, I didnt even clip a lead to it until she was so used to it she didnt even notice it. She volunteers to stick her nose in it because she knows it means she gets to go out, she doesnt pull at all or fight it. I was considering getting one for my JRT, but im not sure if it will be worth the $$$ as I dont know if she would tolerate it near as well as Lexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILK Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Agree. A halti properly used and fitted is a wonderful boon to dog walkers with dogs who no amount of training will stop pulling. I find it hard to believe that no amount of training can stop a dog from pulling on the leash. There are many trainers out there who won't use head collars and can still teach dogs not to pull... Even if you do use a halti you should still be using a training program along with it. As for halits i have used one and promote their use on any dog that can't be walked on a collar surely walking in a halti is better than not walking at all. I personally don't like head collars (I have no problem with many other training tools out there) but I wouldn't recommend them for 'any' dog that pulls on the leash... there are many pros and cons to head collars including the risk of injury that presents with their use that would make me reluctant to use them, especially with certain types of dogs (i.e. dogs that are prone to lunging). ETA: ILK I agree it is important the dog gets a walk, but head collars are so common place now I see them misused constantly, and used instead of the owner actually training their dog. Some dogs find them highly aversive (including my own dog) and whilst the walk may be enjoyable for the owner because the dog isn't pulling, it can be most unpleasant for the dog, if they are kind of dog who find head collars very aversive and spend the whole walk being 'corrected'. I should refrase that huski, I meant that owner & pooch should not be stressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) This is why I got a gentle leader for my pup early, I used to just put it on her around the house, I didnt even clip a lead to it until she was so used to it she didnt even notice it. She volunteers to stick her nose in it because she knows it means she gets to go out, she doesnt pull at all or fight it. I was considering getting one for my JRT, but im not sure if it will be worth the $$$ as I dont know if she would tolerate it near as well as Lexi Just looking at your ticker GG, it looks like your pup is only three months old - waaaaaay too little to be needing a head collar! If you start off the right way when they are little you won't need a tool like a head collar to teach them to walk nicely on the leash. I would also be very concerned about using a head collar on a baby pup whose joints are still developing. The risk of neck/spinal damage with head collars worries me greatly. ETA: I strongly recommend anyone who uses a head collar to have a read of Suzanne Clothier's article, the Problem With Head Collars, just for a different perspective on the tool. http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/54/97/ Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! Edited March 21, 2010 by ~ShelleAndShyla~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! Thankyou!! as I said, Lexi is enthusiastic, she loves having it on, it means she is going on and adventure, but she also has a flat collar on, and if she gets too excited (such as at obedience) I have unclipped her and clipped onto her collar, but the gentle leader stays on Perhaps gentle leaders are a bit better than Haltis, Ive seen haltis on dogs and they either arent fitted correctly, or they just look wrong on the dog, my gentle leader was fitted by my trainer and she has showed me how to resize it correctly, Ive never found a problem with my gentle leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! Thankyou!! as I said, Lexi is enthusiastic, she loves having it on, it means she is going on and adventure, but she also has a flat collar on, and if she gets too excited (such as at obedience) I have unclipped her and clipped onto her collar, but the gentle leader stays on Perhaps gentle leaders are a bit better than Haltis, Ive seen haltis on dogs and they either arent fitted correctly, or they just look wrong on the dog, my gentle leader was fitted by my trainer and she has showed me how to resize it correctly, Ive never found a problem with my gentle leader Yeah it's all in how it's used ;) If the dog is not against the device and happy to have it on, and it isn't being abused with the device and it makes walking a happy partnership.. it's good in my books! I do know some dogs that go spacko in the haltis and HATE them... in that regard I wouldn't use one. I'm sure most dogs would show negativity towards it initially, it's something to get used to, Shyla rubbed at her nose for the first week but now she never really reacts to it being on. If she hated it though I would definitely not use it. It's definitely just for some dogs and not for others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Yeah it's all in how it's used :rolleyes: If the dog is not against the device and happy to have it on, and it isn't being abused with the device and it makes walking a happy partnership.. it's good in my books! I do know some dogs that go spacko in the haltis and HATE them... in that regard I wouldn't use one. I'm sure most dogs would show negativity towards it initially, it's something to get used to, Shyla rubbed at her nose for the first week but now she never really reacts to it being on. If she hated it though I would definitely not use it. It's definitely just for some dogs and not for others! It took 3 weeks before I was happy to clip the lead to Lexis GL, the first week she rubbed her nose, so I rewarded her when she ignored it, and I ignored her when she rubbed it, week 2, it only went on when we walked, so she associated the GL with going out, I clipped it on the way home because she was tired and didnt pay any attention to it. Week 3 I would clip it on from the beginning, it was only at obedience that she got too enthusiastic and I unclipped her, but since then she has been more than ok with it, as I said, she volunteers her nose for me to put it on her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) you're right in her age, but at the moment she is very enthusiastic to put it on, she doesnt and has never really pulled (only when I walked her in a collar, I wanted to rectify that before she got too big, Im not a big girl, I dont want a puller), if she stops, I stop, I walk at her pace so there is no unnecessary strain on her or her spine. If it ever got to the point where she didnt want to put it on, or if she started refusing to work with it on it would come straight off I guess I just don't see why you would need to put a baby puppy in one, surely with all the time and effort you have used teaching her to wear it you could have taught her to walk on a flat/martingale collar and leash. Same here :rolleyes: I use the gentle leader and love it, my girl does NOT fight it and never gets her neck or head pulled or tugged in such a way that it would injure her. It says in that article to see if the dog becomes happy and lively once the gentle leader comes off (meaning it kills their mental state), umm NO my girl does not react any different to the gentle leader being on or off.. that's cos I haven't abused her with it on! She has no issues with it AT ALL, so for some people it DOES work.. and some it doesn't. I think the anti halti people have to accept the people who like using them and use them properly and don't use them in any way that would injure their dog and let them be I think choker chains can be just as bad in the wrong hands, the yanking and jerking on the neck could be devastating, it's all in the way these tools are used. I LOVE not having to have sore hands from a puller and having to hear my dog choking on the end of a tight collar and I LOVE going on our walks now, we have fun and they are never negative, always positive I have a flat collar on her neck also so if she was to freak out or go mental in a situation where the gentle leader would be jerking on her face I would immediately grab the flat collar and contain her that way. Not that I have ever had to! I used the head collar I put on my Siberian properly, and NEVER "abused" him with it yet he still found it highly aversive. One of the reasons I dislike head collars is that even if you use it properly, there can still be room for error, and the dog may still dislike it. Some dogs will never accustom to having the strap putting pressure on their nose or sitting on it or riding up into their eyes as many head collars can do. For Micha, it was constantly aversive because he found it unpleasant the entire time. Funnily enough after four years of having a Siberian Husky who practically pulled my arm out of it's socket on each walk, we met with a trainer who did some one on one work with us and with the right method and a properly fitted martingale he has walked nicely on the leash for the last three and a half years. As Suzanne Clothier said, in some situations, head halters might be a suitable choice, but they should be viewed as a temporary phase, not a life long solution. Edited March 21, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 You said it yourself, some dogs dont become accustomed to it, mine happens to love hers, but that is the reason why Im putting a lot of thought into getting one for my JRT, she pulls, but being a little terrier I can restrain her with her harness. As Ive said, Im not a big girl (adult, but not big) and I wouldnt have the physical strength to hold her back if she saw something she wanted to chase, as it is, we see birds, she is interested in the birds, but I talk to her and keep her back, she will learn that birds arent for chasing, you just watch them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 You said it yourself, some dogs dont become accustomed to it, mine happens to love hers, but that is the reason why Im putting a lot of thought into getting one for my JRT, she pulls, but being a little terrier I can restrain her with her harness. As Ive said, Im not a big girl (adult, but not big) and I wouldnt have the physical strength to hold her back if she saw something she wanted to chase, as it is, we see birds, she is interested in the birds, but I talk to her and keep her back, she will learn that birds arent for chasing, you just watch them I'm not a huge person either, but at three months old it's not like your pup is going to have a lot of weight behind her. Training her to walk nicely now, when she is still easily manageable is going to mean she is easy to walk as an adult. There's lots you can do to train focus around distractions like birds and that goes a long way to having a dog who doesn't have any interest in chasing after them, because she knows obeying you is far more rewarding :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longcoat Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I'd agree that attaching additional weight to a halti is unfair to the dog. When I first got my boy he was uncontrollable on leash so with trainers we tried a halti. Talk about a dog having a nervous breakdown!! He hated it. He is perfect now of course with training on a leash. Sometimes owners purchase these items without any real knowledge on what they are doing, so they don't understand the pressure a thong or two may place on the muzzle.Maybe you could have politely explained it to them and they may have removed the thongs immediately. :rolleyes: There are many reasonable dog trainers out there like there are poor trainers and great trainers, but I am yet to know of a great trainer who is formally accomplished in high level K9 activities to ever recommend or use a head collar to teach a dog to walk nicely on leash. Most accomplished trainers despise head collars and the one's recommending halti's are trainers that I would question are the right trainers to be assisting me with my dog's behaviour. Did I not say we "tried" a halti. An accomplished trainer has seen it all and is willing to try what suits the dog & owner. I also stated that my dog is now perfect on leash!! Don't be bias against one product, because what may not work for one will work for another. The most important thing is that the dog gets a walk. The accomplished trainers I have ever worked with don't make compromises for handlers that won't do what they are told as the trainers focus is teaching the handler how to train the dog. They don't recommend head collars to save a handler administering a leash correction if the trainer believes a leash correction is best for that particular dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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