Vaccination

[moosepup]

Moose was vaccinated with a C4 & C2 at 12 weeks ( :D ) and a C4 + CCi at 16 weeks.

He'll be getting his booster shot next Sunday (16 months old) and then I'll be titre testing after that.

My question is, for his booster, is a C3 all he will need?? I've tried googling but just got more confused.

[Erny]

C3 (which relates to the 3 core diseases we like to especially guard against) is IMO all that is necessary. When you have a C4, it is the same as C3 but with cover for one strain of Canine Cough. If you have a C5 given, then it is the same as C3 but with two strains of Canine Cough.

Does that clarify it a bit for you? :D

Edited March 14, 2010 by Erny

[moosepup]

Yes, thanks Erny, that helps a lot.

In regards to titre testing, if levels are 0 or low do you automatically vaccinate? Or is it maybe just low due to lack of exposure in which case do you vaccinate anyway?

Also, how often do you titre test? Every year?

Sorry for all the questions. :D

[Erny]

That's the biggin', I think.

I would be concerned if Parvo levels were too low. Sure - he might have cell-memory to rely on but I'm not sure how confident with that I would be. I think I'll be re-addressing that in my mind if/when we come to it. I do believe (from what I've read) that levels become low/disappear from the titre test view, due to non-exposure. Between now and then, if this were to occur, I have decided to let myself hear/read and learn more as I go, and follow what I'm comfortable with. I certainly work hard to not feed my boy's body with unnecessary chemicals/drugs, so I wouldn't be re-vaccinating easily.

I'd need to re-check, but I think a Titre test every 3 years, unless I had reason to up-date it sooner. I'm not the best one to ask in this respect - I think Jed (DOL Member) would be the person to ask opinion on it. Jed is quite well versed in the subject of vaccinations and the resultant anti-bodies.

[moosepup]

Okay so I took Moose to get his booster today and asked the vet if he could just give a C3 which he was happy to do.

When I asked him about titre testing his stance was that they don't accurately say whether the dog is adequately vaccinated or not, and until they do he wouldn't trust the results. He also said that as the drug company that produces the vaccine says it should be given yearly that is what he will continue to do. He would hate to advise a client that their dogs titre test said there was some level of immunity, not vaccinate and then have the dog die of parvo, especially since this is contrary to the drug manufacturer (ie. should be given every year). I guess he'd want to cover his bum too.

All of this makes sense but now I'm more unsure then before. Does it really just come down to the owner to know what the titre results mean and use that to make their own decision re. vaccination?

Why is trying to do the right thing so confusing?

[alpha bet]

The only reason it is so confusing is that many of the vets don't wish to follow the guidelines that were sent out by the AVA.

The letter i saw from the AVA says for the pups to have vaccinations at 6 weeks 16 weeks and 14 months and after that then the C3 injection every three years. However the Kennel Cough if needed should be annual.

In theory the titre testing can be done instead of the C3.

The AVA also don't seem committed as I also received a letter to the kennels advising that it is the veterinary that should be advising the dog owners and that it is not something that non-professionals should be advising on.

When I asked our local vet they said they are worried that people wont bring their dog in each year so therefore they are telling people they need the annual injection.

The reason that the three yearly injection is coming in, is that, studies are showing it could be a problem for dogs to be overvaccinated. It therefore worries me that a vet would recommend yearly injections in contrast to these studies.

Personally I feel that most vets are worried they wont have the annual fees from all dog owners.

[Skruffy n Flea]

excellent thread! and can i just say that i reckon moose is one of the cutest lil monsters in the world!

back on topic:

the annual vac bothers me a whole helluva lot ... last year my two suffered for several days from the vac's effects and being one for limiting exposure i'm certainly interested in the 3-yr vac!

this titre test, if it's unreliable, why do vets still provide that service!??!

and these two additional strains of canine cough, are they prevalent!?!?

[moosepup]

Well you got the monster bit right.

In regards to canine cough, unless I kennel my dogs I won't be giving it to them. It's not commonly fatal so I don't think it's necessary to vaccinate against it.

[Guest Tess32]

I honestly think vets who say the titer test is 'unreliable' don't seem to understand how it works because they've not read anything about it.

They often use the argument that one day it's high, one day it's low, and therefore doesn't tell you anything.

But obviously the current levels of antibodies depends on the dog's exposure. It would be *abnormal* to have consistently high levels of antibodies present if the dog had low exposure to the disease. Why would an immune system be fighting something that isn't there??

However, PARVO is reasonably common, and most dogs who go out and about daily, would probably have a titer measurable level of antibodies anyway. That's why Jean Dodds has said that basically any level above 0, shows the dog's immune system is working.

The problem is, and what vets don't say - is that vaccinating basically only temporarily calls the antibodies to action - as the vaccination is perceived as the real disease. So yeah, vaccinating prompts an immune response, but then it fades away anyway, as it *should*. It doesn't create anymore memory cells or antibodies, it's just temporary.

An immune system shouldn't need a constant yearly 'threat' for it to work, that's why I don't believe it makes sense to vaccinate yearly. Vaccinating yearly *only* make sense if there was no such thing as memory cells. The fact that these exist means the immune system is DESIGNED to form these memory cells so that it doesn't have to be in overdrive by constantly having active antibodies fighting imaginary diseases and therefore doesn't need a yearly 'reminder' to fight the same disease over and over.

And most importantly, vaccinating doesn't *increase* the amount of antibodies the dog has , it just boosts them temporarily to fight the threat. Those antibodies are not going to be floating around for a whole year, waiting for the next threat. They subside, and your dog's levels will probably go back to what they were before, which in most cases is going to be the average amount in proportion to the amount of disease they encounter.

Does that make sense?

[moosepup]

It does Tess. How to find a vet that is more knowledgable in this regard is now the question. The vet I saw yesterday isn't Moose's usual vet (same practice though) so I think next year I'll make my appt with the other vet.

Are there any links that I can read that talk about the dangers of over vaccinating?

[Guest Tess32]

It does Tess. How to find a vet that is more knowledgable in this regard is now the question. The vet I saw yesterday isn't Moose's usual vet (same practice though) so I think next year I'll make my appt with the other vet.

Are there any links that I can read that talk about the dangers of over vaccinating?

They seem few and far between. It's 'ok' just to find a vet who trusts your judgement and is open minded.

[sandgrubber]

To the contrary, I find that the more vets know about titre testing, the more they are against it.

The problem is that titre goes up when the dog is mounting a defense against the pathogen. So high titre may mean the dog has been exposed to parvo and his immune system is up and running, or he was recently vaccinated. There seems to be much variation in how long it takes for the titre measurements to come down.

Low titre is hard to interpret: It may mean no immunity, or it may mean that the immunity rests in more subtle memory-based immune responses that mean the dog is fully capable of fighting the disease, but does not have active antibodies.

Many excellent vets find Dr Dobbs unconvincing.

p.s. Do you know of any GP who recommends titre testing kids for measles, mumps, rubella and polio? The biology is much the same.

I honestly think vets who say the titer test is 'unreliable' don't seem to understand how it works because they've not read anything about it.

Edited March 22, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Tiggy]

p.s. Do you know of any GP who recommends titre testing kids for measles, mumps, rubella and polio? The biology is much the same.

That's an interesting point sandgrubber. Can I ask what your vaccination schedule for puppies to adult dogs is please.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Tiggy

[Guest Tess32]

p.s. Do you know of any GP who recommends titre testing kids for measles, mumps, rubella and polio? The biology is much the same.

That's an interesting point sandgrubber. Can I ask what your vaccination schedule for puppies to adult dogs is please.

And then, do those kids get vaccinated every year of their lives? Nope.

[Tiggy]

p.s. Do you know of any GP who recommends titre testing kids for measles, mumps, rubella and polio? The biology is much the same.

That's an interesting point sandgrubber. Can I ask what your vaccination schedule for puppies to adult dogs is please.

And then, do those kids get vaccinated every year of their lives? Nope.

No they don't. I find it all very confusing .

[sandgrubber]

I follow my vet's advice (all of them agree, more or less). I now do close to 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and 14 months. After that I go to 3 years. The 14 mo jab MAY be good for life, or for well over 3 years. The AVA's recommendation is to be conservative and do 3 years: there may be reasons a vet will alter the schedule. Who knows, may turn out that some batch is bad or some strain of Parvo may get past some vaccines. So the basic rule is follow the vet's advice.

I have had a bad time with kennel cough vac. I had a litter of 10 vaccinated and all of them got kennel cough from the vaccine; and the next litter of pups all got it too. So I'm not enthusiastic about C5, though I may decide to use it on a whim from time to time. Mostly I just do C3's. Many vets aren't that enthusiastic about KC vaccine if you can get them to talk to you frankly.

p.s. Do you know of any GP who recommends titre testing kids for measles, mumps, rubella and polio? The biology is much the same.

That's an interesting point sandgrubber. Can I ask what your vaccination schedule for puppies to adult dogs is please.

Edited March 22, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Tiggy]

I follow my vet's advice (all of them agree, more or less). I now do close to 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and 14 months. After that I go to 3 years. The 14 mo jab MAY be good for life, or for well over 3 years. The AVA's recommendation is to be conservative and do 3 years: there may be reasons a vet will alter the schedule. Who knows, may turn out that some batch is bad or some strain of Parvo may get past some vaccines. So the basic rule is follow the vet's advice.

I've done the same but the only thing is I want to go back to a club for training but don't want to vaccinate my dogs yearly like they require so I think I'll have to stay a loner .

[OSoSwift]

Tiggy can you not get the 3 year vaccine?

I am getting that from now on, but due to the vet hospital staying with advising yearly vaccination I have had to organise 10 dogs that will use it in the time it takes to expire.

Luckily a few friends have multiple dogs. Also luckily they are my friends because it will end up costing more over the three years than an annual C5.

I do find the whole thing very confusing, but as I do not vaccinate my kids every year and they now have a 3 year vaccine I will stick to that. I am not quite brave enough to have a booster at 14 months then nothing for the rest of their life.

[stormie]

I think its really unfair for training clubs to still specify annual vaccines, considering it has been scientifically accepted that the vaccine has a three year duration.

Maybe speak to your club about it and take them the info that is available on the AVA website? My new club has acknowledged the changes and I'm sure come membership renewal, will happily accept my 3 year certificate, even though it was with an annual vaccine.

[poodlefan]

I think its really unfair for training clubs to still specify annual vaccines, considering it has been scientifically accepted that the vaccine has a three year duration.

Maybe speak to your club about it and take them the info that is available on the AVA website? My new club has acknowledged the changes and I'm sure come membership renewal, will happily accept my 3 year certificate, even though it was with an annual vaccine.

My club allows vaccination or titres.

Most immunologists acknowledge antibody titres as a legitimate method of establishing immunity. That's good enough for me.