Skruffy n Flea Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 okay, this may have been done to death but every circumstance has its own merits... byron is itchy, it's incessant when there's a flare-up (like this week) and unless i understand and address the cause, it'll be a lifelong treatment of his symptoms *sadness* he has no skin flakes or spots, but tonight i decided that his pale skin appears too pink in some places and THAT in itself is a revelation cuz until then, i thought he exhibited absolutely no outward signs [other than itching] whatsoever ... even the vet was in a quandry last week saying she'd be happy to take a scraping but 'there's nothing to scrape' and 'his skin is the same pink all over'! it occurs to me NOW that the 'same pink' is perhaps 'too pink' and THAT, my friends, may lead us to a diagnosis! :cool: anyhoo, i've read some interesting things about VAN and i wanna know your experiences comparing that product to BARF. if you've had a similar experience with what seems to be a chronically itchy dog that shows no serious skin condition at all, and you've changed your dog's diet, then plse share your experience with me... poor byron is being driven nuts and i am so nearly at my wits end trying to help him ... i need to cure him! thanks :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 the vet who made VAN produced it as an alternative for those who did not have time to prepare their own barf diet. He says in talks himself that BARF is better but if you can't do BARF its was made as an alternative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 BARF leaves VAN for dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra64 Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 try a bit of good apple cider vinegar in the drinking water. Its worth a try. Ive used VAN, but i dont use it often It took me quite sometime to get through the bags of it i had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 okay, so i've also posted this in health/nutrition/grooming and i realise this may have been done to death but every circumstance has its own merits...byron is itchy, it's incessant when there's a flare-up (like this week) and unless i understand and address the cause, it'll be a lifelong treatment of his symptoms *sadness* he has no skin flakes or spots, but tonight i decided that his pale skin appears too pink in some places and THAT in itself is a revelation cuz until then, i thought he exhibited absolutely no outward signs [other than itching] whatsoever ... even the vet was in a quandry last week saying she'd be happy to take a scraping but 'there's nothing to scrape' and 'his skin is the same pink all over'! it occurs to me NOW that the 'same pink' is perhaps 'too pink' and THAT, my friends, may lead us to a diagnosis! :cool: anyhoo, i've read some interesting things about VAN and i wanna know your experiences comparing that product to BARF. if you've had a similar experience with what seems to be a chronically itchy dog that shows no serious skin condition at all, and you've changed your dog's diet, then plse share your experience with me... poor byron is being driven nuts and i am so nearly at my wits end trying to help him ... i need to cure him! thanks :D No matter what the skin problem is - no matter what the cause might be it is 100 percent every time a symptom of something else going on. Its about his immune system. Skin issues are easy to see but there are many other things that might go on inside a dog that it will take a while to show themselves. Often dogs get itchy skin up to 12 weeks after a vaccination and heartworm meds can cause immune system issues which take a while to show up. Flea and tick preps can also impact on the immune system. Because things like this dont just show up over night you dont associate them with what you are seeing. but regardless of what may have triggered them its is always about the immune system. So now think about it - if you or a child had issues with their immune system what would you do to try to boost immunity? You would eat raw unprocessed foods. You would look at your environment to see if anything in that could affect your recovery. You would stop taking drugs and vaccinations, you would ensure you were getting all you needed by way of vitamins, minerals and enzymes,lots of freash air and exercise and try to stay away from things which cause you stress. Board certified Aloe Vera juice is the quickest way to boost immunity and for dogs you need to stay away from grains and seeds especially when dealing with skin issues. A teaspoon of Apple cidar vinegar for every 2 litres of drinking water and about a cup ful of apple cidar vinegar to 10 litres in the final rinse water when you bath him will help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Great info Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Board certified Aloe Vera juice is the quickest way to boost immunity and for dogs ... What's the "Board certified" Aloe Vera juice dosage recommendation, Steve? IE How much would be necessary to give to a (eg) 39kg dog on a daily basis to make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I was given the book Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog (by Wendy Volhard and Karry Brown) and found it very interesting. It covers: How to read commercial dog food labels and understand what they really mean The Natural Diet and how to prepare it Raising puppies and caring for older dogs What supplements are all about How to asses vaccinations and lab tests Kinesiology Homeopathy The Five-Element Theory of traditional Chinese medicine and much more.... Might be worth a read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Have you thought about trying an elimination type diet with him to find out exactly what he is allergic too? It could be anything - grains, protiens, preservatives... I'd be inclined to say that the fresh fruit/veg in the BARF diet would be a better option as it doesn't have grains in it. What are you feeding at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) If you already have symptoms of immune deficiency you need to give a fair wack which will possibly show a day or two of runny poos. 39 kg dog with symptoms I'd say 40 mils 3 times per day for 3 days then back it off to 25 mils 3 times per day for 3 days then 10mils 3 times a day for at least a month. You often see symptoms get worse for the first few days and as above with some runny poos but that settles down as the immune system gets back to health and you lower the dosage. ALOE VERA (Effects) The secret behind Aloe Vera is the interaction of its many elements. Aloe Vera is adaptogenic According to Breckhman, a Soviet researcher, an "adaptogenic" is a plant that has a regulating effect on the body and that helps it adapt to stress or to any other difficult situation. By regulating immune system functions, it also treats parts of the body that are sick. Adaptogenics act only when needed and only where their action is required. If not, they remain inactive in appearance as they slowly but surely strengthen the immune system. Aloe Vera has an overall, subtle, slow and sometimes almost imperceptible effect (which is why it is referred to as the "silent healer"). White blood cells are the most important constituent in the body's immune system. When foreign particles are detected in the body white cells concentrate in the area. Aloe Vera contains a number of chemicals that aid in the process of fighting antigens [or foreign particles] in the body. http://www.cancer-coverup.com/fighters/aloe-cancer.htm Cancer Cover-Up: The Book <H1 align=center>Aloe and Cancer</H1>Dr. Lawrence G. Plaskett, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry among many other academic distinctions, states "The action of substances in Aloe vera does activate and intensify the immune response, and this constitutes one of the fundamental scientifically established actions of Aloe upon the body." It is in the boosting of the immune system's response to antigens (foreign elements in the body) that Aloe vera has shown the most promise in treating cancer. Although no one is yet proposing that Aloe vera is a cure for cancer, it is clear from research conducted throughout the world over the past thirty years that Aloe vera and, in particular, certain specific substances in the plant - have very dramatic and impressive anti-cancer effects. Aloe vera has been demonstrated to enhance the immune system's response to cancer, promote the growth of new and healthy cells, and reduce the overall viral load within the body thereby revitalizing the body in its fight against the cancer.When radiation and chemotherapy are necessary, Aloe vera helps to minimize the damage done to the body by these treatments, which destroy healthy cells - particularly immune system cells - crucial to the body's recovery. The use of Aloe vera enables the body to heal itself from cancer and the damage done to it by conventional treatment: the immune system is boosted, tumors shrink, metastases are reduced so the cancer does not spread, and new healthy cells begin to grow. How can Aloe vera do all this? An important aspect in the theory as to the cause of cancer is that the onset of the disease is due to a failure of the immune system to respond properly to the development of cancer cells in the body. This has given rise to an area of cancer research called immunotherapy. It is generally accepted that the human body is forced to handle the incidence of cancer on a regular basis, and that the immune system responds to the growth of cancer cells routinely. Cancerous cells develop due to a variety of pathogens which the body encounters and overcomes daily. Varying theories which attribute the onset of cancer to abnormal radiation exposure, environmental contaminants, pollution, preservatives and chemicals in the food supply, lack of proper nutrition, stress, viruses, genetics or whatever else, may very well all be correct. That is to say, there might be any number of variables that cause cancerous cells to begin to form. According to this understanding of cancer, it is when the immune system is compromised and cannot fight off the growth of abnormal cells that the cancer takes hold, and a tumor begins to form. Further compromise of the immune system to respond to cancer cell growth determines whether the body develops cancer or successfully eliminates the abnormal cells and remains healthy. A brief explanation of the important parts of the immune system will make the amazing benefits of Aloe vera in the treatment of cancer more clear. White blood cells are the most crucial part of the body's immune system. Certain chemical signals released by tissues in response to an antigen (foreign particles in the body) attract white blood cells, which respond by concentrating in the affected tissue. Neutrophils are the first cells to respond to an infection and they "eat" the foreign particles. The swelling associated with infections is due in part to enzymes released by neutrophils in this process. Monocytes follow up by "eating" larger particles that could not be handled by the neutrophils as well as the neutrophils that died as a result of having eaten the foreign particles. The moncytes release a number of chemicals which play crucial roles in the fighting of infection, including interferon and interleukin. These chemicals stimulate lymphocytes to continue the response to the antigen. The white blood cells break the antigen down into fragments, which the lymphocytes can chemically recognize and respond to. The most common lymphocytes are B-cells, which kill foreign antigens, and "helper" cells, which regulate the action of T-lymphocytes by intensifying or slowing down the "killer" cell response. Aloe vera contains a number of chemicals that enhance the activities of all of the immune system functions just described. 23 Polypeptides serve as immune system stimulators, helping to control a broad spectrum of immune system diseases and disorders. 20 Polysaccharides increase the action of white blood cells thus increasing the production of "killer" T-cells and interferon. They also chemically enhance the action of the "killer" T-cells. One of these polysaccharides, acelated mannose, has been patented as acemannen and is approved in Europe to stimulate the immune systems of AIDS patients. AIDS research has shown that Aloe vera use can double the number of both "killer" and "helper" T-cells within three weeks and at the same time reduce the P-24 core antigen - the overall indicator of viral load in the body. Interferon and interleukin production is stimulated, attacking the cancer and viruses in the body. Lectins and emodines are two anti-tumor chemicals in Aloe vera which, along with an increase in the tumor necrosis factor brought about by Aloe vera, begin to destroy malignant cancer tumors. There is clear evidence that Aloe vera is effective in the treatment of cancer in animals - and it is approved by the USDA for such use. There is clear clinical evidence that Aloe vera is effective in boosting the immune system response in the treatment of AIDS in humans - and it is approved in Europe for such use. There is a large amount of anecdotal evidence that Aloe vera use in humans is effective in boosting the immune system response in the treatment of cancer - both in healing the cancer directly and in enabling the immune system to withstand the onslaughts of radiation and chemotherapy Edited March 12, 2010 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 If your boy's skin is irritating him, try giving him a wash using Calendula Tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Thanks Steve. Great info. Will follow up on it - ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I use VAN but I probably wouldn't recomend it for a dog with allergies because of the grains in it. It is also very rich and can put condition on your dog very quickly. So I think go with barf so you can add what you want!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra64 Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I don't think a drizzle of flaxseed oil would go astray either. Mine spend a lot of time in dam water and use to have issues with hot spot and skin problems. since having cider vinegar and flaxseed oil, not one blemish.....but not one remedy works for all, its a working out whats works for you, mine also get a sprinkle of protexin powder in their evening meal, and sometimes VAN skin and coat supp.There diet consists of lean meaty bones, and kangaroo mince, beef mince, a bit of chicken mince, with fruit and veg mixed in. They dont like sardines or anything like that, especially the home brand ones. Won't even look at them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineX Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Kate is intolerant to all forms of meat as opposed to allergy - no anaphalactic reaction in sight. But red skin, that goes sticky and hot is a precursor to scratching and biting, and at its worst, she actually gnawed skin of her back leg. An elimination diet pointed to chicken, and over time, to all meat. Vet,by the way, was impressed that I took the time for elimination diets - most of his clients want an automatic fix. She is currently on Z/D low allergen - but for her the kicker is that if that is all her diet is, she is incontinent, so she has to have some meat/normal kibble. We run a balance between itchiness and incontinence, down here. Best thing I have found for the itchy/red skin - chamomile tea. Got the idea from here. I don't think Kate appreciates the smell - she does not get to have a say. ChristineX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmurps Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 How come you see a lot of allergies in certain breeds? SBT for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sezling Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 (edited) I started my dog on van recently as he's had itchy skin for the greater part of his life (10 yrs) and was diagnosed with bacterial and fungal infections. The thing is the vet put him on antibiotics before I made the food change and that cleared everything up nicely. Then I was feeding him meat+ nutro kibble. Afterwards he was also put on cortisone for pain relief with another problem, which I was told would also help with itching (even though that was no longer a prob with the ABs). However after starting him on van to replace kibble he started itching on his belly and rubbing his face vigorously.. The ABs and cortisone have not helped. So I'm stopping van and putting him back on nutro just to confirm it was the van causing the prob. Then Im planning to bring him to a natural vet to get help drawing up a diet. Sometimes it might take a bit more work but if the easy way isn't helping ur dog then that acually makes things a lot harder Edited March 13, 2010 by sezling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted March 13, 2010 Author Share Posted March 13, 2010 thank you everyone for your replies i'll continue using barf... steve, very interesting info you provided as regards the imune system ... i am so on board with that thinking and i reckon i'm gunna give the 'treat fleas and worms when necessary' philosophy a go *bites the bullet* my only hesitation tho is worms ... is there an outward sign that i should look for should either of my dogs get worms!??! flea infestations i can see myself dealing with ... but worms are an enigma! maybe i'll just stop the flea treatments for now! i might consider too the 3-year [as opposed to the annual] vacs ... following their shots last year both dogs were out of sorts for several days and that srsly bothered me... i did some research into aloe vera! and it just screams do iiiiiit ... i gotta get me to a garden centre because i can't wait to get started, and WOAH, even for myself! are those infusions board certified? if not, what preparation are? how much should i give to a 6 to 7 kilo dog? as for the ACV, i add a teaspoon to each barf brick from which i get 4 meals ... i was adding ACV to their inside water container but they were choosing to drink instead from the outside containers so i added it to their outside containers too but then we got the clam shell! i'll give ya 2 guesses as to how that panned out... we rarely wash our dogs and i think its been about oooh, 10 weeks or so since their last bath and we did use ACV in the final rinse then but i wasn't sure as to the ratio so thanks for that info too tilly, thanks for the reading tip ... i'll keep it in mind secretkei, no, we haven't tried the elimination diet yet ... i thought i'd take the path of least resistance first and if that fails, go the next step both dogs are fed on barf, some boiled chicken, tuna or salmon in oil, artemis weight management and lean raw bones when we're out... erny, thanks, i got my first batch of calendular tea today along with some rolled oats cuz i will try anything to alleviate his condition while i'm dealing with the cause woofenpup, thanks for that! neither of my dogs need condition so that was very good information sandra64, thanks for your reply ... they each get a cap of fish oil per evening meal [i'm about to change to a teaspoon of FO per EM] but i am curious about flaxseed oil and willing to add that too ... i wanna see first how treating his immune system with aloe goes christinex, WOW, what a situation! thanks for the camomile tea tip i've just bought calendular tea [not cheap!] so i better see if that works before i buy another tea that i am also unlikely to enjoy drinking! shmurps, i can't help ya with that one but i'd be interested to know why too sezling, it sounds like you've got a tuff case too! i wish for you guardian angels thanks again dolers for your invaluable advice steve, if you could just answer those 3 questions for me, i'd be most grateful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 thank you everyone for your replies i'll continue using barf...steve, very interesting info you provided as regards the imune system ... i am so on board with that thinking and i reckon i'm gunna give the 'treat fleas and worms when necessary' philosophy a go *bites the bullet* my only hesitation tho is worms ... is there an outward sign that i should look for should either of my dogs get worms!??! flea infestations i can see myself dealing with ... but worms are an enigma! maybe i'll just stop the flea treatments for now! i might consider too the 3-year [as opposed to the annual] vacs ... following their shots last year both dogs were out of sorts for several days and that srsly bothered me... i did some research into aloe vera! and it just screams do iiiiiit ... i gotta get me to a garden centre because i can't wait to get started, and WOAH, even for myself! are those infusions board certified? if not, what preparation are? how much should i give to a 6 to 7 kilo dog? as for the ACV, i add a teaspoon to each barf brick from which i get 4 meals ... i was adding ACV to their inside water container but they were choosing to drink instead from the outside containers so i added it to their outside containers too but then we got the clam shell! i'll give ya 2 guesses as to how that panned out... we rarely wash our dogs and i think its been about oooh, 10 weeks or so since their last bath and we did use ACV in the final rinse then but i wasn't sure as to the ratio so thanks for that info too :D tilly, thanks for the reading tip ... i'll keep it in mind secretkei, no, we haven't tried the elimination diet yet ... i thought i'd take the path of least resistance first and if that fails, go the next step both dogs are fed on barf, some boiled chicken, tuna or salmon in oil, artemis weight management and lean raw bones when we're out... erny, thanks, i got my first batch of calendular tea today along with some rolled oats cuz i will try anything to alleviate his condition while i'm dealing with the cause woofenpup, thanks for that! neither of my dogs need condition so that was very good information sandra64, thanks for your reply ... they each get a cap of fish oil per evening meal [i'm about to change to a teaspoon of FO per EM] but i am curious about flaxseed oil and willing to add that too ... i wanna see first how treating his immune system with aloe goes christinex, WOW, what a situation! thanks for the camomile tea tip i've just bought calendular tea [not cheap!] so i better see if that works before i buy another tea that i am also unlikely to enjoy drinking! shmurps, i can't help ya with that one but i'd be interested to know why too sezling, it sounds like you've got a tuff case too! i wish for you guardian angels thanks again dolers for your invaluable advice steve, if you could just answer those 3 questions for me, i'd be most grateful If they are board certified they have the logo on the bottle which clearly says board certified but I will only use one brand because it has more allantoin left in it and most of them take that out which takes aways some of the glyconutrients. Rule of thumb if tastes O.K. and not like you would imagine cats wee to taste its not as good as the stuff that tastes reasonable. If you use the fresh stuff it has to be real fresh because it starts to oxidise as soon as you cut it and that takes away some of the live nutrients. For a dog of that weight with symptoms Id go 10 mils 3 times a day for a week then down to 5 mils 3 times a day for a week and then 5 mils a day for at least a month. With worming - if you are giving Aloe and ACV and raw food that isnt a good environment for worms so its less likely they will be an issue. Learn about what worms you may have to be aware of in your area and understand their life cycle and symptoms. Take a good look at the drugs available to treat them - look for the chemical name and possible adverse side effects and what they treat not the brand names. For example some do 11 differnent worms with only 4 or 5 known to occur in this country so if you only need to consider roundworm for example there are meds available which are much less harsh. Dont take anything for granted - everything you are doing that in anyway impacts on your dog take the time to look at.It helps your dog, you and your family and you can teach what you learn to others.Use dogz too the knowledge base here is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 ... I will only use one brand because it has more allantoin left in it and most of them take that out which takes aways some of the glyconutrients. What brand would that be, Steve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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