Mas1981 Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Reading a couple of people's posts and having a dog that suffers allergies myself I started thinking about what causes them, ie what makes one dog more prone to allergies than the next? I know allergies can be a sign of a weakened immune system but what causes this, is it environment etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Reading a couple of people's posts and having a dog that suffers allergies myself I started thinking about what causes them, ie what makes one dog more prone to allergies than the next? I know allergies can be a sign of a weakened immune system but what causes this, is it environment etc? I can only give my thoughts, based on things I've read/heard etc. Yes - I believe the incidences of allergies goes back to a weakened immune system. Things such as all the chemicals we apply and administer to our dogs. Vaccinations, flea/tick/mite controls (often not for any real need). All the processed foods we feed our dogs. And I don't think this merely relates to the individual dog at the time. I think it goes back through the generations and what the bitch who brought our individual dogs into this world was on and like. And her parents before that. And so on. I also think we bombard our dogs too often with drugs that are not perhaps as immediately necessary as some think. And shampoos as well as other chemically based substances such as nice smelling scents (nice to us, that is) that we spray on the dogs. And so forth. No wonder the immune systems are stressed and weakened. I also think that there are many things that we can't control as well, such as pollutants in the air. A bit too difficult to escape them. But we can do something about the other of what I've mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 Reading a couple of people's posts and having a dog that suffers allergies myself I started thinking about what causes them, ie what makes one dog more prone to allergies than the next? I know allergies can be a sign of a weakened immune system but what causes this, is it environment etc? I can only give my thoughts, based on things I've read/heard etc. Yes - I believe the incidences of allergies goes back to a weakened immune system. Things such as all the chemicals we apply and administer to our dogs. Vaccinations, flea/tick/mite controls (often not for any real need). All the processed foods we feed our dogs. And I don't think this merely relates to the individual dog at the time. I think it goes back through the generations and what the bitch who brought our individual dogs into this world was on and like. And her parents before that. And so on. I also think we bombard our dogs too often with drugs that are not perhaps as immediately necessary as some think. And shampoos as well as other chemically based substances such as nice smelling scents (nice to us, that is) that we spray on the dogs. And so forth. No wonder the immune systems are stressed and weakened. I also think that there are many things that we can't control as well, such as pollutants in the air. A bit too difficult to escape them. But we can do something about the other of what I've mentioned. Thanks Erny, I think what you have said is true, like for example flea and tick treatments, is it necessary to give the dog stuff for fleas and ticks month after month when they have never had a flea?? My husband and I argue about this and i see his point too, i say he only needs stuff for heartworm monthly whereas my husband says we should treat him for ticks and fleas as well as the fleas are hard to get rid of once he as them but I say its just poison! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Are we seeing more and more of them because people keep breeding dogs with skin issues and immune defciences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Are we seeing more and more of them because people keep breeding dogs with skin issues and immune defciences? Possibly - but why did those dogs have skin issues and immune deficiencies? Might have started as "just one of those things" but I think we need to consider what we're doing and what affects it is having on the evolution of our dogs, from one generation to the next, before, during and after conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) Also think of this : it is talked about that people are becoming more and more allergic to certain things as well with a causal possibility of it being because they were never exposed to them beforehand. Think of all the flea treatments we use as preventatives .... could it be that for some dogs, the presence of a flea might have a bigger impact because of the dog never having been exposed (and its parents not having exposure, and their parents before that etc). Kind of like the theory about being "too clean and sterile" as in some other countries, and people not coping with bacteria when they are exposed to it. I am not suggesting everyone stop using flea products if they're in an area where fleas are in abundance, but I'm suggesting the above notion just to muse on, as food for thought. I'm also not suggesting it might be the case for every instance either. I remember our family's first dog (in my lifetime) - we didn't have the products we have now to apply to dogs, and commercial food for dogs didn't come along until somewhat later, so dogs were fed predominantly raw/natural foods etc. Yet our labrador suffered terribly with excema from the flea infestation that was ever present on our property. This issue only stopped when we shifted. Edited March 12, 2010 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Keep in mind that allergies are actually due to an overactive immune system, so is it really a 'weakened' immune system? Agree with sas too, I think a major cause is genetics because so many people don't understand that breeding a dog with any type of allergy, even if it's only minor, can create a severely allergic pup. Until we can learn how to test for it though, it becomes hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Keep in mind that allergies are actually due to an overactive immune system, so is it really a 'weakened' immune system? You're right - I forgot about that concept. But it is in line with the "too clean" concept I raised in my post above. Immune system has nothing to do, so turns on to things that it ordinarily doesn't or shouldn't be turning against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 Allergies just fascinate me, certain times of the year my dog is fine, at other times like at the moment he is very itchy and certain plants make his eyes swell, not sure what causes it but pollen has been mentioned by a few vets etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Don't forget about the emotional contibution as well as physical issues - both effect the bodies physiology immensly. We've all probably experienced ourselves getting sick when we've been over stressed over a period of time - same thing with dogs. You can't really seperate physical, emotional or health conditions as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Keep in mind that allergies are actually due to an overactive immune system, so is it really a 'weakened' immune system? You're right - I forgot about that concept. But it is in line with the "too clean" concept I raised in my post above. Immune system has nothing to do, so turns on to things that it ordinarily doesn't or shouldn't be turning against. Sure. But at the end of the day, IMO, I think the dog still has to be genetically predisposed to react that way to those things, whatever they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Rules Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Keep in mind that allergies are actually due to an overactive immune system, so is it really a 'weakened' immune system? You're right - I forgot about that concept. But it is in line with the "too clean" concept I raised in my post above. Immune system has nothing to do, so turns on to things that it ordinarily doesn't or shouldn't be turning against. Either way, the immune system isn't working as it should be, which is where the 'weakened' part comes from I think. I don't agree with giving animlas flea treatments to prevent fleas, I'm far more of the school of 'deal with it IF it happens'. We don't go around spraying our homes once a month with insecticide (well some people do ) just in case there may be a fly or a mozzie but imagine the impact of breathing and touching those surfaces on a regular basis?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Keep in mind that allergies are actually due to an overactive immune system, so is it really a 'weakened' immune system? You're right - I forgot about that concept. But it is in line with the "too clean" concept I raised in my post above. Immune system has nothing to do, so turns on to things that it ordinarily doesn't or shouldn't be turning against. Sure. But at the end of the day, IMO, I think the dog still has to be genetically predisposed to react that way to those things, whatever they are. Genetics are far more complicated than just being 'passed on' and 'predisposed'. There is a lot that is not explained in the body in relation to genetics. The other issue when referring to genetics is it is the expression of genes, and this changes thoughout an animals lifetime - this relates to external pressures changing the expression. It is also possible that past family members had the gene for this expression and were not stimulated in the way to express the issue, but ongoing stresses in current generations has caused it to be more prevalent. Environment vs genetics - question of the ages!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 such an interesting discussion! case on point: byron, about 3yrs, rescue, NOT a purebreed, has such a sensitive skin issue that i had our vet soooo vexed the other day discussing it with her that she said she'd be happy to do a scraping but there's nothing there to scrape; no flakes, no redness, no scabs NADA!!! ergo, no point! she tutored me on natural remedies and in particular the use of organics in that neat application may have a negative impact on his ph balance and to always dilute the product and to brush daily to stimulate circulation ... she also sold me a topical spot-on application that contains the essential omega oils [i can't just now remember what it's called] - it's a weekly application [containing 4 pipettes] for 8 weeks and then one application per fortnight following... FWIW: bryon, from about his mid-spine, down his hind legs and to the base of his tail, is soooo itchy that he nearly doubles himself in half just to alleviate the aggravation and is also that sensitive along his spine that his skin quivers! how often should one launder their dog's bedding!??! i have not at all noticed any flea infestations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 FWIW: bryon, from about his mid-spine, down his hind legs and to the base of his tail, is soooo itchy that he nearly doubles himself in half just to alleviate the aggravation and is also that sensitive along his spine that his skin quivers! The way your describing Byron's symptoms is incredibly similar to my Benson's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 FWIW: bryon, from about his mid-spine, down his hind legs and to the base of his tail, is soooo itchy that he nearly doubles himself in half just to alleviate the aggravation and is also that sensitive along his spine that his skin quivers! The way your describing Byron's symptoms is incredibly similar to my Benson's i understand your dog's pain then! and your's too!!! like a natural mother i am totally out of sorts that i can't immediately help him what are you doing for benson!??! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) Yep and I felt your pain reading your post He has been diagnosed as having Atopic Dermatitis and we are currently trialling immunotherapy - he is the most stable he has been since he was on the beginning dose of Atopica last summer. God I wish there was a simply thing you could them and it would all go away Edited March 12, 2010 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Erny- good points! I tend to agree When I see the garden variety working dogs around here- who don't get bathed, or groomed- there is never an allergy,or an ear problem... sure there are the odd fleas, and sometimes sarcoptic mange from foxes... but otherwise skins remain healthy. treatment for fleas etc are done when necessary, not as a matter of routine. Basic vaccs and worming is done ..apart from that, the dogs do not get much chemical exposure. They are pretty well all outside- so never lie on treated carpets or anything...never breathe in flyspray or deodorant, or soap fumes... I wonder if itDOES make a difference? Consider folks who move to different areas/change bedding/floor coverings/ cleaning routines.. etc to help with asthma/allergies.... why shouldn't dogs be different? After all, we inflict upon them the same restrictions/chemicals that we come across ourselves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Remember the itching with an atopic dog is due to what's going on on their insides, so they don't necessarily have to display external symptoms/causes from the itching. It's the release of histamine in their bodies which results in the itching. Most of the redness/scabs etc are secondary to the itching and not always the cause. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that the specialists know that the majority of cases are genetic - they know canine atopy is genetic but just haven't yet found the genetic marker to test for. As to what makes one dog develop allergies in the first place, who knows, but like I said, I still think for them to react to the environment/chemicals etc, there is something genetically different about that dog to make it react and become allergic, but another dog to not. My dog was bred in the deserts of Victoria, by a breeder who is very minimalistic about veterinary treatments/chemicals etc. Yet he is one of the worst atopic dogs we have ever seen. I know his brother gets a bit itchy after contact with one type of grass, which incidentally, is Orbits worst grass too. What I think would be interesting, would be to run a poll asking everyone on dol whether their dogs have ever been diagnosed or displayed some sort of allergy to either the environment and/or food. I'm talking contact with things like grasses, not wandering jew. I know I've said this before, but what I don't think a lot of people may realise, is that even though their dog only occasionally scratches after rolling in a certain type of grass, it's still a form of allergy and therefore that dog/bitch has the potential to pass that on. I've read countless threads on dogs that were itchy but once grains were stopped, the dog was fine. Well that dog probably has an allergy, which again has the potential to pass on. But like I said, just my opinion from what I've learnt from my dealings. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 treatment for fleas etc are done when necessary, not as a matter of routine. Basic vaccs and worming is done ..apart from that, the dogs do not get much chemical exposure. Even worming (this recalls to memory a seminar Dr Bruce Symes ran) ..... the suggestion is that dogs' systems are designed to cope with a mild worm burden. But we worm religiously (or at least, most people do .... I don't) which means the system is squeaky clean as far as worm burden is concerned. Yet again nothing for the immune system (which is itching - pardon the unintended pun - for a 'job' to do) so it turns onto other things that it might otherwise have ignored for being kept occupied elsewhere, where it would be doing good. That's my 'lay person' way of explaining it - I know there would be much more to it than that and not quite that simplistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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